What do the government gain by inflating the figures ? I really don't understand this one.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
Edit: missed where he explained on this page
Test how easy it is to frighten/manipulate the public. Given we now have people wanting lockdown until the virus is completely gone, safe to say mission accomplished.
We also have people chomping at the bit to go back to normal. There's only so long they can continue this. Like other countries the UK will relax their restrictions slowly. Furthermore, the number of deaths only bring more scrutiny to the government, why would they want to increase this?
So excess mortality in the UK is a lot higher than the amount of deaths officially attributed to covid-19 and yet the government is actually inflating the figures.
Makes you wonder what's actually killing all these people. In the UK and all the other countries that suddenly have an extremely high excess mortality.
Makes you wonder what's actually killing all these people. In the UK and all the other countries that suddenly have an extremely high excess mortality.
Oh dear, looks like the Government here in UK should have stuck to their original plan instead of buckling to public pressure.
The right wing austerity loving, economy focused government want to continue to destroy the economy and hand out money to the public.
Yeah it's something I struggle to get on board with. I have time for some conspiracy theories, because those I find convincing, I can always pinpoint where "the money" is and I believe that any conspiracy would involve the rich and powerful becoming richer and more powerful. This situation, I simply cannot see how anyone is making any money from this, which is why I can't get on board with it.
Ofcourse they will have to but it's set a clear future precedence showing how easy it can be to scare people into submission.
I mean don't get me wrong the initial lockdown was nessesery but the way some people have gone above and beyond to help implement it and been brainwashed into thinking along the lines of "we can't do anything just incase" (forgetting that pretty much everything they do in life has some risks of sort) is a little worrying.
With regards to the questions about Sweden's response to this...
They have a population of about 10.25 million, have had about 20,000 confirmed cases and 2355 confirmed deaths. Norway, Finland, and Denmark combined have a population of about 16.7 million, and have had combined about 21,000 cases and 840 deaths. If you just look at the nations sharing a land border with Sweden, then Norway and Finland combine for 11 million people, about 12,400 confirmed cases and 405 deaths.
Why exactly are we supposed to be praising Sweden again?
They have a population of about 10.25 million, have had about 20,000 confirmed cases and 2355 confirmed deaths. Norway, Finland, and Denmark combined have a population of about 16.7 million, and have had combined about 21,000 cases and 840 deaths. If you just look at the nations sharing a land border with Sweden, then Norway and Finland combine for 11 million people, about 12,400 confirmed cases and 405 deaths.
Why exactly are we supposed to be praising Sweden again?
No reason. Yet.
As with almost everything we must wait before we praise or shame most actions when it comes to this virus.
And to me, that approach is sensible.
I just see the current "we're winning" campaign by Swedish politicians as an attempt to paper over the drastically lower numbers from their neighbors, who have instituted drastically different policies.
Oh feck off. Johnson has kids he won’t even acknowledge publicly. He’ll just use this as an excuse to keep away from Starmer for another few weeks, who will run circles around him.
Yeah I'd love to see this brought up when the inevitable clap-for-baby-Boris crap begins.
I agree, but I have not notice to much of that living here so maybe its more noticable from the outside. The health gouverment belives in the aproach they have chosen and so far my opinion is that it could be worse, but also better.
I don't see it that way, to me they are just feeling confident they are winning their particular war, not that they're winning in comparison to their neighbours. And in my opinion, it does look they are winning their war. However different that war may be to ours, or any other country.
Jeff Bezos has probably earned a couple more yachts since this all started.
Which is basically what I said, just worded differently.
I think the point is that every country has to do a balancing act between letting life and businesses continue as near to normal as possible while ensuring their health service isn’t overwhelmed. Sweden’s health service is far from overwhelmed and their economy hasn’t contracted as sharply as neighbouring countries with more drastic measures (I think? Would actually like to see evidence of this? @Regulus Arcturus Black)
Then there’s the herd immunity thing. Swedish epidemiologists and politicians have been claiming that their approach has helped them get them much closer to herd immunity than other countries. In Stockholm anyway. Even if you don’t get herd immunity a big pool of previously infected people will act like a firebreak in any future outbreaks. I remain to be convinced that these claims are true.
As am I.
Behind a paywall
Edit: found the article on my phone - which for some reason didn't get a paywall - and it doesn't mention Norway, Finland, or Denmark.
And beyond that... are we now in a counter-conspiracy? One side saying deaths are being overreported by the thousands, another saying they're underreported by the thousands?
Not for me. Weird.
445 deaths in English hosptials today. Certainly a good time to add care home figures!
I dunno, I think id be buying shares now in loads of stuff whilst they are rock bottom because they surely will rise again
Got it to pull up on my phone. Gave a response above.
601 hospital deaths today (UK as a whole). So for the fourth straight day, a solid reduction in numbers from the previous week , by 160 or so (763 was the figure last Wednesday).
Care home figures will be released later today in a full statement which I guess is going to be an overall total of deaths in the UK today. That will definitely make for some grim viewing I think we can all agree.
Care home figures will be released later today in a full statement which I guess is going to be an overall total of deaths in the UK today. That will definitely make for some grim viewing I think we can all agree.
Saw this last night although completely missed the black dude who famously was accidently put on air to give his view on a major story when he was just coming for a job interview for production job or something! Oh I see adding that guy is just a meme.
Big edgy from Dan Walker there sport will return whether you like it or not!
NYTimes has a monthly limit so its technically a soft paywall.
It's not that simple because there are so many unknown knock-on effects that make a lot of big plays risky.
Herd immunity is not a strategy and certainly not one Sweden is employing.
People seem to think you are either locking down or actively aiming for herd immunity, this is one of the most frustrating aspects of debate surrounding this.
Herd immunity is effectively a by-product of existence and society during a pandemic.
Tell that to the families of the extra deaths. We can shame them for now, certainly.
What may happen is that we might have to recognise "we" were wrong in the future.
For the time being, yes, I will shame them because the number of deaths they already have is only comparable to unlucky micro-nations or countries where everyone else assumes things have gone wrong (UK, Italy, Spain, US, Netherlands, Belgium...).
Isn't the overreporting just anecdotal evidence so far with one poster sharing posts on social media whereas underreporting of Covid-19 related deaths is really happening (such as the UK not including deaths in home care)?
There is one thing with regards to the Sweden discussion that doesn't make sense to me though. And that is the constant comparing of their current case numbers to their neighbouring countries. Shouldn't it be obvious that they have more infections than those who imposed stricter lockdowns? I mean, that is literally their strategy. The assumption being that they'll come of the pandemic better in the long run because their ecomomy is still intact. If they hadn't, wouldn't that mean that what other countries have been doing is useless, i.e. why lock down when a laissez-faire approach has the same results. That's oversimplifiying it perhaps but if they manage to keep the social and economic cost (which eventually leads poverty/illness and death) at a minimum whilst not overloading their health system, that would be a great outcome.
Didn't the study that showed 11% of people in Sweden had antibodies have a tiny sample size.. I think it was 200 or something really low..
To extrapolate from that and claim herd immunity could be reached by May is quite a leap.. unless they have more testing behind the scenes..
Either way,, things clearly havent spiraled out of control there.. so they are able to carry on as normal.. its working.
To extrapolate from that and claim herd immunity could be reached by May is quite a leap.. unless they have more testing behind the scenes..
Either way,, things clearly havent spiraled out of control there.. so they are able to carry on as normal.. its working.
There are an insane amount of variables when it comes to this virus in terms of every individual country. It amounts to little more than pot luck as to how many "original" cases entered a country then further luck as to the demographic of those case holders, the luck as to what they work as, how many people are in their social circle, the demographic of their social circle, what they work as, how many people are in their social circle.... you get the point.
It makes little sense to praise or indeed condemn any individual country for their numbers in my opinion as each has so specific circumstances related to themselves that can ether be a gift or a curse that can see the numbers go one way or the other. I think how much randomness there is involved is drastically underplayed when i would argue it plays and has played a much larger role on average that any action(s) taken or not taken.
My point is that your article doesn't address anything I've posted. I'm comparing Sweden with its Nordic neighbors and you're posting an article that compares Sweden with none of them.
The thing is, their "laissez-faire" approach isn't giving similar results. Sure, you can say more infections would be expected with an open society approach, but they've 3x the death toll of those 3 countries combined as well.. and those 3 countries combined have 5 million more people than Sweden.
If the economy remaining relatively normal is the most important thing, then sure... Sweden is doing better. But for me, it isn't.
The other point with the Swedish strategy is that it's also too early to compare economic impacts, which should be one of the pluses of their approach. I guess the extent of the benefit they get from being less strict will only really be known once we see how countries bounce back post-lockdown and how much the international impact will hit Sweden's economy?