SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Your last sentence doesn’t really make sense to me. I’m not talking about a “win” for anything based on Sweden’s experience. I’m just saying you can’t put nursing home infections/fatalities to one side, when assessing the overall effectiveness of a government’s strategy. Which you seem to be keen to do here. If anything, nursing home residents are the canary in the coal mine.

Arruda was though, not you.

And I’m not putting them aside, they are an extremely important part of the figures of course And some thing that needs to be considered a mass failure in the countries they get hit hardest there.

Something that is not surprising and what is completely forgotten here when people try to discuss Sweden strategy is that Gothenburg which has a population similar to Dublin Lisbon Copenhagen Oslo has a very low death rate.

Why is that the case if the Swedish strategy is so wrong? Is it not just the case that more populated cities like Stockholm end up more fecked because they were already on the ”pretty fecked” path once Italy kicked off.

Or can anyone explain to me why Gothenburg, a city of 590,000 has had it so well considering Sweden’s non lockdown strategy is so poor?
 
Updated graph of deaths in England by day of death. 823 new deaths as of 5pm yesterday -43 from the day before but it's a weekend. Orange is a 5 day trailing average (last 5-7 days will see large to moderate upward changes):
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Updated graph of deaths in England by day of death. 744 new deaths as of 5pm yesterday. Orange is a 5 day trailing average (last 5-7 days will see large to moderate upward changes):
P2itu0i.jpg
 
Good news indeed if true, but given your bias on this since the early days I'm a bit hesitant to trust what you say (rather the selection of opinions you chose to base your knowledge on).

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/y3rdeA/coronaviruset-har-ar-de-senaste-siffrorna

Don't trust me @Arruda

But considering how negative you have been to Sweden’s strategy which has seen the winter flu and winter tummy bug completely drop off a cliff since mid March, (something we are all arguing is proof that we are social distancing very well and that this is having a massive affect)... Why is Gothenburg, a similar size city to Lisbon doing so well and still only now has 66 people in the ICU?

Västa Götaland is Gothenburg - 55 deaths

Malmö shares a fecking bridge with Copenhagen, and yet have 24 deaths and 23 in ICU.

And it’s not about being ”biased” pal it’s about seeing things in the Swedish strategy like Gothenburg and other areas that show that this is absolutely possible to achieve without having to lock people in their homes and ruin us for the next 12 months, this is about being optimistic that we can get on with our lives and still keep this curve flat because we can all have better hygiene and we can all practice social distancing and be good citizens.
Stockholm is proof that allowing this into your nursing homes in a big populated city is going to feck you, we can certainly learn from that.
 
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Maybe staggered easing of restrictions for those statistically proven to be less vulnerable?

Yep. Some countries might even try easing different regions at different paces if they think it's viable.
 
Not really. We were making progress on a SARS vaccine but it disappeared on its own and the impetus went with it. There were a few promising vaccines that were awaiting various stages of trials at the time. MERS suffers similarly, neither have warranted massive research efforts.

I read that too where we were very close, especially to a SARs vaccine until it became not necessary any more. SARs had a very high mortality rate (I believe > 10%) so would have been considered ultra dangerous at the time.

One thing I can't get my head around with this though is the coronavirus strains which cause the common cold. There must be a ton of money sitting there where people would happily pay to vaccinate themselves from the 2 weeks of illness per year, but the companies don't seem interested. There surely can't be any reason that a vaccine is not possible for certain coronavirus strains?

The reasoning that it's because there's so many strains also seems weird as that is exactly what they do with flu every year by developing a new one to hit the newer strains.
 
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/y3rdeA/coronaviruset-har-ar-de-senaste-siffrorna

Don't trust me @Arruda

But considering how negative you have been to Sweden’s strategy which has seen the winter flu and winter tummy bug completely drop off a cliff since mid March, (something we are all arguing is proof that we are social distancing very well and that this is having a massive affect)... Why is Gothenburg, a similar size city to Lisbon doing so well and still only now has 66 people in the ICU?

Västa Götaland is Gothenburg - 55 deaths

Malmö shares a fecking bridge with Copenhagen, and yet have 24 deaths and 23 in ICU.

Gothenburg is in no way of a similar size to Lisbon. Lisbon's metropolitan area has 3 million people. Lisbon's airport moves 6 times more people per year than Gothenburg's.

You have yet to understand my line of reasoning in regards to Sweden, despite I having expressed it numerous times. Both the peripheral nature of the country and the "natural" social distancing provide a great advantage to Sweden in terms of how slowly the disease is spreading.

I think those advantages are being wasted.

The issue is that that "natural" social distancing is nowhere near to the "artificial" social distancing other countries have imposed. So I think your adopted country is in for a shock.
 
with all the oddities around timing of death rate figures, what is the key day this week? looking at just today it looks like we're in the process of levelling off but i know some figures on some days aren't always the most accurate.
 
The issue is that that "natural" social distancing is nowhere near to the "artificial" social distancing other countries have imposed. So I think your adopted country is in for a shock.

But you surely can’t believe that we can artificially social distance in our homes until the virus is gone? As I say this is about being optimistic that we can keep a flat curve whilst social distancing ourselves naturally. Or are you a pessimist and genuinely believe that we need to be locked in our homes for a year?

This in the beginning was always supposed to be about flattening the curve and yet now it seems to be about something completely different, like stopping deaths for a year by keeping ourselves in our homes.
 
This has been the case in a number of other countries, it's not exclusive to the UK. It's just not been possible to test everybody who needs it and testing the deceased outside of hospitals has not been a priority.
Yes. There was article in the economist on 4.4. about bergamo, quite similar findings.

By the way, is there data on deaths in bergamo somewhere. I can only find for Lombardy, not more specific.
 
But you surely can’t believe that we can artificially social distance in our homes until the virus is gone? As I say this is about being optimistic that we can keep a flat curve whilst social distancing ourselves naturally. Or are you a pessimist and genuinely believe that we need to be locked in our homes for a year?
I believe, like @11101 has expressed earlier, we need to be locked until we know exactly what to do.
 
Not really. We were making progress on a SARS vaccine but it disappeared on its own and the impetus went with it. There were a few promising vaccines that were awaiting various stages of trials at the time. MERS suffers similarly, neither have warranted massive research efforts.

Milestones for a Covid19 vaccine have been reached far sooner. The genome sequence was published 10 days after China acknowledged the virus even existed. SARS took 4 months. Human trials are due to begin this month. By the time a SARS vaccine entered human trials 2 years had passed, the virus had burnt itself out and the epidemic was over.

US newspaper/ TV station is reporting that China is in the 2nd phase of testing a vaccine. They completed the first phase last month. It's the safety phase. So now it's to see how effective it is. I think we should have some news of others testing for vaccines by the end of this month.
It's not a new vaccine I guess but trying to see from earlier research and testing of other vaccines if they can tweak those.
 
If you want an example of a country that is absolutely terrible at keeping coronavirus out of nursing homes, look at Ireland. The vast majority of our clusters are in nursing homes or other residential communities. Thankfully, we’ve been pretty good about stifling spread in society as a whole. Which keeps our overall mortality/ICU admissions relatively low.

To be honest, I don’t think any country has done a brilliant job at keeping the virus out of nursing homes. It’s just not possible. Not with agency staff working in multiple centres and limited supplies of PPE being prioritised for use in acute hospitals.

Yeah Canada is getting shellacked as far as nursing homes go.
 
I believe, like @11101 has expressed earlier, we need to be locked until we know exactly what to do.

Which is why you and I will always differ in this. I absolutely respect your point and I understand why you feel that way especially with the incredible job that you do.
For me though I will class countries that flatten the curve whilst managing to keep on with society as well as possible as “successful”, as I believe you cannot stay locked down long term. Within very little time it would begin to cause complete anarchy.
 

I don't know if it's economically viable but there's no other choice. Having millions of people die is not a solution either.
There are thousands of jobs that will not exist for those 2 years though so it's certainly very difficult but it's not like we are presented with a choice here. There's absolutely no way in hell that you can allow people back into stadiums and concerts and not have a massive outbreak again.

The problem is that it is difficult to claim that many will not die of measures if they go on for two years. One month of lockdown in in most places, the economy is already crashing... What will happen in a year? Suicide, homelessness, increased heart problems due to stress and staying indoors, etc.

What you are writing about (2 year + ) is a solution ideal from a point of view taking only the virus into account, but there are other factors to consider. Many other factors.

However, I maintain that, if the vaccine does not arrive by the end of the year, it will not matter all that much, as most people will get sick anyway, with lockdowns being untenable for more than a couple of months.
 
Around 450 nursing home deaths here Pogue, almost all in Stockholm.

And as I said earlier even countries that had a lockdown have got it into the nursing homes because people who are locked down are still getting this. IItaly is proof of that when five weeks after lockdown they are still getting 4000 cases a day. So lockdown doesn’t completely stop cases which means without it being completely stopped people who work in nursing homes will still get this and bring it into nursing homes.

Declaring Sweden getting it into an insane amount of Stockholm nursing homes as a “win” for lockdown seems really strange.

And whilst I don’t think this is true for Sweden’s neighboring countries, there have been lots and lots of reports of nursing care home deaths missing from other countries statistics.
35-50% of deaths in Finland are from nursing homes, so quite similar. It isn't the explanation you think it is.
 
You're overlooking one massive factor here...mortgages.

Banks will not be competing for business. That's not what happens when liquidity dries up and defaults rise, aka a recession. They consolidate loan portfolios and stop lending. Even now as governments are effectively underwriting all debt, banks are still reluctant to lend. It doesn't matter if the housing market crashes 50% the vast majority would still need a mortgage, and that's going to become harder to get, with higher deposit requirements and higher interest rates.


Boomers hit earning age in the 1960s. WW2 was a memory by then and the economy experienced unprecedented and until today unmatched growth, with fairly consistent 4-5%+ annual GDP increases until the 1990s.

‘You’re overlooking one factor here’....

No. I’m applying broad strokes.

- Potential New forms of lending, or greater appetite for different instruments

- Huge sectors (insurance, financial services, etc) giving up bloated office spaces as they’ve just realised people will work from home quite responsibly
- The repurposing of those spaces
- A huge reduction in house prices
- A large amount of housing stock becoming available

So much will happen. Most of it unknown. Holding Pity parties because we have it tough is ridiculous.

You’ve also told me that the boomer generation had forgotten the war in 15 years, at the same time people here are rolling the last GFC into Covid as a double whammy, a 12 year gap.

Change is driven by doers. Not complainers. There are successful paths through challenging time’s and energy spent moving in that direction is more helpful than ‘The Boomers got to buy a house in exchange for doubling the amount of household hours worked, they were so lucky’

* Example : My friends family are already discussing ways to combine existing mortgages into a single entity and aggregate the risk across them all.
 
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with all the oddities around timing of death rate figures, what is the key day this week? looking at just today it looks like we're in the process of levelling off but i know some figures on some days aren't always the most accurate.

Tomorrow will probably be telling one way or the other. We've just had a bank holiday weekend and weekends tend to have a drop in deaths reported which are then filled in as the next week progresses. We might have 3 days worth of under reporting to fill in.
 
Tomorrow will probably be telling one way or the other. We've just had a bank holiday weekend and weekends tend to have a drop in deaths reported which are then filled in as the next week progresses. We might have 3 days worth of under reporting to fill in.

Yeah I can see tomorrow and Thursday being very, very bad sadly. Followed by a decline for a few days, and then the same next week - but I do think that within 1-2 weeks from now, the 'Peaks' will be getting noticeably smaller.
 
This site is interesting.

Makes predictions re peak/duration of deaths/resources demand for various countries based on the data collected to date.

It's fecking terrible. 2 days worth of data caused it to drop its mean prediction for UK from 66k down to 37k. Its prior prediction now lies above its current upper confidence interval. It took Belgium 4 days to breach its prediction for where they'd be on August 4th, Italy will breach its upper confidence interval within 2 days.

One problem with it seems to be that it demands the data follow a bell curve. This is something that's just not being observed in reality.
 
This site is interesting.

Makes predictions re peak/duration of deaths/resources demand for various countries based on the data collected to date.

Interesting site, though weirdly very wrong about Norway's ICU capacity, which makes it seem like there's already a shortage and going to be even more of one. In reality we've currently got 73 people in ICU, and it's been very slowly falling for a couple of weeks. It's the same story with corona-hospitalizations in general. Things could still change drastically, of course, but at the very least it's not a clear pattern of (exponential) growth.
 
Within very little time it would begin to cause complete anarchy.
Nonsense. It may lead to some levels of oppression, not anarchy. Certainly not in countries with modern police forces and armed forces.

Most people will be afraid to join any forming riot. The few that don't care will be dealt with.
 
@massi83

What’s your explanation for the extremely low death numbers in Gothenburg and Malmo then, why are they not so different to Helsinki?:confused:

According to google, Västra Götalands län alone has practically the same amount of deaths as Finland. It's clearly not a disaster like Stockholm, but the Swedish numbers are still higher than neighbouring countries even accounting for that.
 
Have a read of the scenario you've just described. Does that scenario scare you, and is that a future you would want to be a part of? The army killing protesters in the streets. In other words, an ultraviolent police state.

I described nothing of that sort. That's your own imagination. I'm talking about the military doing police work, because police are already stretched and will need far more rotation than usual due to quarantines.

And, if western societies ever reach an extreme boiling point, it will most likely be responded to with oppression, not anarchy.

And I wish nothing of the sort. It just may have to be done. In my island Police is stretched thin imposing sanitary barriers between areas (fragmenting the island, which seems to be an effective strategy). One particular area was having problems due to low literacy and social problems. At the time we considered activating armed forces to help police in that area. It wasn't necessary in the end, aa people slowly got around to the need of staying home.

This has been done countless times, asking the army to help with fires and other natural disasters. Nothing strange about it.
 
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