SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

blue blue said:
But would the rest of the worlds governments be wrong to seek compensation from China because they covered up the outbreak. This isn't the first time they have had an outbreak as they managed to contain the SARS outbreak without infecting the whole planet. Its fair to say this type of pandemic could in theory start anywhere in the world and blaming one country because of a natural phenomena is wrong. But the main reason this has infected the whole world is because the authoritarian system of government in China encourages people to hide things for fear of reprisals.

Is it not correct to say this is pandemic has its roots in the authoritarian principles of Chinese government and the rest of the world has a right to feel aggrieved.
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My view as well.
That was my initial point when I mentioned that China has a lot to answer for.

I do still believe that as a minimum, they should make available sufficient funding to pay for the funerals of those many ten's of thousands of those who died as a result of covid 19.
 
blue blue said:
But would the rest of the worlds governments be wrong to seek compensation from China because they covered up the outbreak. This isn't the first time they have had an outbreak as they managed to contain the SARS outbreak without infecting the whole planet. Its fair to say this type of pandemic could in theory start anywhere in the world and blaming one country because of a natural phenomena is wrong. But the main reason this has infected the whole world is because the authoritarian system of government in China encourages people to hide things for fear of reprisals.

Is it not correct to say this is pandemic has its roots in the authoritarian principles of Chinese government and the rest of the world has a right to feel aggrieved.
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That would just motivate them to hide it even more next time.
 
Smores said:
Interestingly I've had a few friends say they've been on calls this morning and it sounds like further lockdown is pending.

I'm taking it as gossip at this point but it wouldn't surprise me if they've decided the only way they can handle the easter break is full lockdown.
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I think so. The weather's cooling off in the NW at least which'll stop the picnics and sun-bathing, but we all have a picture in our heads of what normally happens at Easter. It's the start of the season, really and people go out. Of course, things won't be open but they'll still want to go out.
 
Alabaster Codify7 said:
Thing is man, you have to think about this realistically. Think how big China is, and how many different LEGAL food markets are in each multi-million person city. Then imagine how many illegal/unlicensed sellers are in that same city, then imagine the enormity of trying to police that situation, especially when a lot of exotic meat is purchased black market by the extremely rich.....and also, sold on the sly by the very poor who need to eat something.

It's an unstoppable entity, sadly.

Drugs are illegal. Think how many dealers live and operate in your home-town, if you're from the UK. Sure, one of them might get busted now and again, does that stop the influx of illegal drugs? No, because demand will bring supply and the same goes for these wet markets.

Finally, the Chinese government need to actually want to stop them, by putting in a monumental effort. It's far more likely that they'll put on the PR face for a year then just drop interest when the world has stopped scrutisining.
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Thank you man, I had actually given it some thought and do not disagree with you, it is not easy to imagine how we attempt to protect ourselves beyond expecting China to take responsibility for how their citizens choose to live. Choose being their responsibility.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I just went down a YouTube comments rabbit hole after someone I know posted a video of some gobshite spouting nonsense on Facebook about 5G. Which was a terrible idea. Conspiracy theory types are the absolute worst.
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I posted an article in this thread on this subject the other day. People have been destroying and setting fire to the masts, then attacking the engineers that come out to fix them. What made it even more ridiculous and absurd, was that most of the masts they were destroying didn't even contain 5G technology due to the slow rollout of it. So they were destroying 3G and 4G masts.
 
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Not much "European solidarity" is seen in these extremely tough times. The thought of my country having to rely on our corrupt and absolutely inadequate government is seriously scaring me.

I hope my nation finally wakes up amidst these unprecedented events, our future has been at stake for decades now and this might be the last chance to try and change our current course. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the majority of people have the mental capacity to do it and we also don't have any proper alternative leaders.
 
sammsky1 said:
Would they all be protected contractually by 'force majeure'? I mean this is genuinely the most true example of that in living memory!
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I have had discussions about this being a force majeure and I tend to think it is, despite the governments advice to carry on working. We will see how this pans out but I suspect there will be companies incorrectly using the crisis to defend their poor performance. If a subcontractor made a terrible cock up and forgot to order something they would be mad not to.
 
blue blue said:
I have had discussions about this being a force majeure and I tend to think it is, despite the governments advice to carry on working. We will see how this pans out but I suspect there will be companies incorrectly using the crisis to defend their poor performance. If a subcontractor made a terrible cock up and forgot to order something they would be mad not to.
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I think there's going to be quite a load of lawsuits on the back of this. I recently found out, the company I work for does have some sort of protection built into their contracts for a time like this (not necessarily pandemic cover but in a sudden drop in business is written into the contracts) but the customers are outright refusing/incapable of paying at the moment.

There's going to be a lot of mess that will need sorting.
 
Alabaster Codify7 said:
Think how big China is, and how many different LEGAL food markets are in each multi-million person city. Then imagine how many illegal/unlicensed sellers are in that same city, then imagine the enormity of trying to police that situation, especially when a lot of exotic meat is purchased black market by the extremely rich.....and also, sold on the sly by the very poor who need to eat something.
Finally, the Chinese government need to actually want to stop them, by putting in a monumental effort. It's far more likely that they'll put on the PR face for a year then just drop interest when the world has stopped scrutisining.
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I think this is the bit many don't seem to get. Consuming rare wild animal meats, rhino horn, elephant tusk dust etc are a true signal of prestige in China and believed to enhance a persons capabilities. It's a habit that goes back many generations and is deeply etched into cultural folklore and norms. It's exactly the very rich, influential and powerful (probably including Xi Jinping and the rest of his party elders) who consume in this trade and passionately believe in its benefits. So why would they ever agree to give up a cultural norm they passionately believe in, which goes on inside their own culture and country?

Non Chinese people may not understand or agree with this habit, just as Chinese, or Arabs or Africans don't understanding many European habits and norms. But even in 21st century globalised world, different cultures still practice fundamentally different habits. And in this instance, China's key decision makers you seek to influence are the main advocates of that habit. I can't see how anyone could credibly convince China to change.
 
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DoomSlayer said:

Not much "European solidarity" is seen in these extremely tough times. The thought of my country having to rely on our corrupt and absolutely inadequate government is seriously scaring me.

I hope my nation finally wakes up amidst these unprecedented events, our future has been at stake for decades now and this might be the last chance to try and change our current course. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the majority of people have the mental capacity to do it and we also don't have any proper alternative leaders.
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If ever there was a time and place for the EU to prove that the U.K. was wrong to walk away THIS was the occasion. Sadly they have failed to step up to the plate. No concerted EU effort at all.
 
sammsky1 said:
I think this is the bit many don't seem to get. Rare wild animal meats are a true signal of prestige in China and things like Rhino horn or elephant tusk dust believed to enhance a persons capabilities. It's a habit that goes back many generations and is deeply etched into cultural folklore and norms. It's exactly the very rich, influential and powerful (probably including Xi Jinping and the rest of his party elders) who consume in this trade and passionately believe in its benefits. So why would they ever agree to give up a cultural norm they passionately believe in, which goes on inside their own culture and country?

Non Chinese people may not understand or agree with this habit, just as Chinese, or Arabs or Africans don't understanding or agree with many European habits and norms. But even in 21st century globalised world, different cultures still practice fundamentally different habits. And in this instance, China's key decision makers you seek to influence are the main advocates of that habit. I can't see how anyone could credibly convince China to change.
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Well put, mate.

We'd all love nothing more than for China and don't forget it's neighbouring countries who also indulge in exotic meats to banish these markets and the trade itself. It's just not that simple.
 
sammsky1 said:
I think this is the bit many don't seem to get. Rare wild animal meats are a true signal of prestige in China and things like Rhino horn or elephant tusk dust believed to enhance a persons capabilities. It's a habit that goes back many generations and is deeply etched into cultural folklore and norms. It's exactly the very rich, influential and powerful (probably including Xi Jinping and the rest of his party elders) who consume in this trade and passionately believe in its benefits. So why would they ever agree to give up a cultural norm they passionately believe in, which goes on inside their own culture and country?

Non Chinese people may not understand or agree with this habit, just as Chinese, or Arabs or Africans don't understanding or agree with many European habits and norms. But even in 21st century globalised world, different cultures still practice fundamentally different habits. And in this instance, China's key decision makers you seek to influence are the main advocates of that habit. I can't see how anyone could credibly convince China to change.
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I wonder if you can understand that this has been discussed and shown many times over many years and is not a new concept to many of us.
 
Just been on the Irish news that there will be in effect road blocks by the police over the Easter period. No one permitted to travel outside of 2km and only travel for essential reasons.

im guessing this will mostly be enforced around the cities and particularly Dublin where the epicenter is. No way would they have enough police to patrol rural Ireland

I hope everyone has a big dollop of common sense over Easter
 
Virgil said:
If ever there was a time and place for the EU to prove that the U.K. was wrong to walk away THIS was the occasion. Sadly they have failed to step up to the plate. No concerted EU effort at all.
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You having that take on it is exactly the reason they pulled this stunt:

Coronavirus: Boris Johnson urged to explain 'ideological' refusal of EU help buying medical equipment

The EU is working as it should for countries that wish to use it. Good luck finding these reports on BBC news. It would have been a PR disaster for this government to have demostrated the benefit of EU membership and it's a stark reminder that Johnson, Raab and Hancock are in their roles for a single reason - Brexit. To hell with everything else.
 
Simbo said:
This governments very existance revolves around being anti-EU, the only reason those cabinet ministers are in the job is because they are strongly anti-EU and able to spin a good tale around it, no other qualification was required. Any thought they have on how to manage this crisis appropriately will trail behind their primal instinct of being a Brexit sycophant.

So remarkable yes, but not in the least surprising.
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Out of interest, could anybody explain to me what the EU has done as a collective thats any different to what we have in the uk? Have they shared PPE or ventilators as part of an EU wide agreement.? Have they shared Doctors and Nurses? Has there been any form of EU wide agreement on lockdown, both in timings and severity, or EU wide agreement on travel?
Im not been arsey by the way, im genuinely interested if the EU has actually acted as one, helping member states equally, or has it been a free for all, every state for itself. I know Germany has taken limited numbers from other states but im not aware that this was agreed in Brussels. I seem to recall that early in the pandemic Italy were asking for financial help but the silence from the rest of the EU was defening.
 
My lord I just had to share this. The sheer stupidity of people…

The Health Ministry here have just been showing a graph that shows the cases in Stockholm are now looking very good for the past week, but that the spread is now growing in other parts of the country. They are reminding everyone daily about risk groups, not slacking now etc etc.

In Sweden 76% of affected are men, 25% have diabetes type 2 and the average age is 61.

Now I shit you not, the missus old man is 61 and has type 2 diabetes. We were just on a walk with the pram and walked past a café in our little town, (just North of Stockholm) and the utter feckwit was inside this café grabbing some lunch. We told him to come out and saw he'd also been to the supermarket despite the fact that they have a risk group hour between 7-8.

We both gave him a dressing down and his excuse… "there's no-one around, I'm social distancing", add to that the fecker had vinyl gloves on and kept touching his mouth.

I swear to God, some days you do understand why some people are just too fecking stupid to be trusted.
 
sammsky1 said:
I think this is the bit many don't seem to get. Consuming rare wild animal meats, Rhino horn or elephant tusk dust etc are a true signal of prestige in China and believed to enhance a persons capabilities. It's a habit that goes back many generations and is deeply etched into cultural folklore and norms. It's exactly the very rich, influential and powerful (probably including Xi Jinping and the rest of his party elders) who consume in this trade and passionately believe in its benefits. So why would they ever agree to give up a cultural norm they passionately believe in, which goes on inside their own culture and country?

Non Chinese people may not understand or agree with this habit, just as Chinese, or Arabs or Africans don't understanding many European habits and norms. But even in 21st century globalised world, different cultures still practice fundamentally different habits. And in this instance, China's key decision makers you seek to influence are the main advocates of that habit. I can't see how anyone could credibly convince China to change.
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Lots of ancient traditions are actively being forced to change. Because they’re shit traditions, that cause harm. Female Genital Mutilation would be an obvious example. If any ancient Chinese tradition is proven instrumental in this pandemic then it should be challenged just as vigorously.
 
Virgil said:
If ever there was a time and place for the EU to prove that the U.K. was wrong to walk away THIS was the occasion. Sadly they have failed to step up to the plate. No concerted EU effort at all.
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I don't mean to be nasty by saying this, but many citizens of the bigger and more powerful European countries seem to be unable to realise how much the rest rely on their actions.

We can talk about "solidarity", "equality", "democracy", but the reality is there are de facto leaders of the EU and they have massively failed to react to everything happening so far. The whole idea of a union goes out of the window when your first thought is to firstly use measures to only protect your own. My country Bulgaria is literally in the worst possible position, even though we don't have many cases so far. We are the poorest in the EU and the system has been internally usurped and corrupted since its' inception. I always thought that when we joined the EU, the big countries would demand that there is justice and all the organised criminal circles of political, economical power will not be tolerated. But it seems that our prime minister is the perfect lap dog for the major European and even world leaders, who he famously called "bosses" in an interview some years ago. As long as he and his ruling elite never question any of the policies of the EU and protect the financial interests of the powerful world countries, his corrupt leadership is not going to be touched.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I just went down a YouTube comments rabbit hole after someone I know posted a video of some gobshite spouting nonsense on Facebook about 5G. Which was a terrible idea. Conspiracy theory types are the absolute worst.
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Your recommended video feed is going to be fun for a while.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
My lord I just had to share this. The sheer stupidity of people…

The Health Ministry here have just been showing a graph that shows the cases in Stockholm are now looking very good for the past week, but that the spread is now growing in other parts of the country. They are reminding everyone daily about risk groups, not slacking now etc etc.

In Sweden 76% of affected are men, 25% have diabetes type 2 and the average age is 61.

Now I shit you not, the missus old man is 61 and has type 2 diabetes. We were just on a walk with the pram and walked past a café in our little town, (just North of Stockholm) and the utter feckwit was inside this café grabbing some lunch. We told him to come out and saw he'd also been to the supermarket despite the fact that they have a risk group hour between 7-8.

We both gave him a dressing down and his excuse… "there's no-one around, I'm social distancing", add to that the fecker had vinyl gloves on and kept touching his mouth.

I swear to God, some days you do understand why some people are just too fecking stupid to be trusted.
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Which is a great example of why the government should be taking these decisions out of the individual’s hands. Multiply that one incident by many thousands and you’ve got a strategy that’s doomed to fail.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Which is a great example of why the government should be taking these decisions out of the individual’s hands. Multiply that one incident by many thousands and you’ve got a strategy that’s doomed to fail.
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But at the same time Pogue, what would stop the daft cnut going to the shop in the UK in the middle of the day with his shitty vinyl gloves thinking he’s fine?
 
worldgonemad said:
Out of interest, could anybody explain to me what the EU has done as a collective thats any different to what we have in the uk? Have they shared PPE or ventilators as part of an EU wide agreement.? Have they shared Doctors and Nurses? Has there been any form of EU wide agreement on lockdown, both in timings and severity, or EU wide agreement on travel?
Im not been arsey by the way, im genuinely interested if the EU has actually acted as one, helping member states equally, or has it been a free for all, every state for itself. I know Germany has taken limited numbers from other states but im not aware that this was agreed in Brussels. I seem to recall that early in the pandemic Italy were asking for financial help but the silence from the rest of the EU was defening.
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No, I would say there has been no actual solidarity when you take into account the severity of the crisis. Some European leaders have even gone on to say that the richer countries should not be paying for the problems of the poorer ones. I mean, if Italy got no real help from the big EU members, what hope do the smaller countries have for their future?
 
oates said:
I wonder if you can understand that this has been discussed and shown many times over many years and is not a new concept to many of us.
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And yet is being repeated in just past few pages on how 'Chinese must change or be punished' for their habits.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Lots of ancient traditions are actively being forced to change. Because they’re shit traditions, that cause harm. Female Genital Mutilation would be an obvious example. If any ancient Chinese tradition is proven instrumental in this pandemic then it should be challenged just as vigorously.
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I don't generally disagree. But who is going to credibly do it, and why would they listen?
 
sammsky1 said:
And yet is being repeated in just past few pages on how 'Chinese must change or be punished' for their habits.
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I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.
 
oates said:
I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.
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This is sarcasm right?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
But at the same time Pogue, what would stop the daft cnut going to the shop in the UK in the middle of the day with his shitty vinyl gloves thinking he’s fine?
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Nothing. But the café would have been closed, with no customers inside. I also think that the more radical changes are important to bring it home to people how serious this all is. You can’t really blame people for being a bit too casual about social distancing when the government is being similarly laid back.
 
Brwned said:
What proportion of businesses did voluntarily close after a decent compensatory scheme was introduced?
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I don't follow. I'm unaware of any scheme that has been introduced that compensated business?
 
Look at the end of the day, impartial investigators are not going to get access to anything inside China so calling for punishment etc is just futile. What we should focus on is staying alive, and how we rebuild our own societies after this including mechanisms to protect the futures of our children and so on. Not to forget proper investigations into how our own respective governments handled the crisis
 
Smores said:
Interestingly I've had a few friends say they've been on calls this morning and it sounds like further lockdown is pending.

I'm taking it as gossip at this point but it wouldn't surprise me if they've decided the only way they can handle the easter break is full lockdown.
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I'd like to take this opportunity to apologies as this looks like it could be fake news. It's been dispelled on Twitter by an official South East Ambulance account.

I'm awaiting an update off my Mum who I'm now expecting will tell me it was a sent to her by a senior colleague and not the word of a senior colleague.

For what it's worth, if the change in protocol was true I would still expect them to come out and dispel the rumour to keep the public calm.
 
golden_blunder said:
Look at the end of the day, impartial investigators are not going to get access to anything inside China so calling for punishment etc is just futile. What we should focus on is staying alive, and how we rebuild our own societies after this including mechanisms to protect the futures of our children and so on. Not to forget proper investigations into how our own respective governments handled the crisis
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Personally I haven't made or seen anyone calling for China to be punished but if you interpret Recompense or Restitution as Punishment then I'm afraid that you are in error because they are not the same thing.
 
oates said:
I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.
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My post wasn't directed at anybody specifically, rather just an addendum to @Alabaster Codify7 post. On a personal level, I'm also against these specific habits, because of these public health issues and species intinction challenges they pose. I'm simply trying to understand how it could happen.

As you agree, it's complicated, nuanced and historic. I've spent a lot of time in China and SE Asia over the years, and when I challenge my colleagues about elephant tusk consumption, they point out that it didn't stop colonial trophy hunters from killing elephants and tigers years ago.

It would be an amazing outcome if the world can agree 'a social contract' after this pandemic, but I just cant see Chinese agreeing to many of these demands, especially when the decision makers passionately believe in these habits. I was speaking last week to an ex UK ambassador and currently a senior civil servant at FCO reporting directly into Raab. He admitted there was no-one except Trump who'd even dare make such a request, and even then, China would just ignore it. We saw that post SARS, when China reopened said markets just 2 years later.

So it becomes a negotiation and may include serious brinkmanship. The West can decide to end all relations with China, socially and economically, but that also brings a whole host of new challenges. Yes, even we as posters on a football forum know all this, but it seems no-one knows how it practically plays out.
 
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sammsky1 said:
My post wasn't directed anybody specifically, rather just an addendum to @Alabaster Codify7 post. On a personal level, I'm also against these specific habits, because of these public health issues and species intinction challenges they pose. I'm simply trying to understand how it could happen.

As you agree, it's complicated, nuanced and historic. I've spent a lot of time in China and SE Asia over the years, and when I challenge my colleagues about elephant tusk consumption, they point out that it didn't stop colonial trophy hunters from killing elephants and tigers years ago.

It would be an amazing outcome if the world can agree 'a social contract' after this pandemic, but I just cant see Chinese agreeing to many of these demands, especially when the decision makers passionately believe in these habits. I was speaking last week to an ex UK ambassador and currently a senior civil servant at FCO reporting directly into Raab. He admitted there was no-one except Trump who'd even dare make such a request, and even then, China would just ignore it. We saw that post SARS, when China reopened said markets just 2 years later.

So it becomes a negotiation and may include serious brinkmanship. The West can decide to end all relations with China, socially and economically, but that also brings a whole host of new challenges. Yes, even we as posters on a football forum know all this, but it seems no-one knows how it practically plays out.
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I agree with you and I entirely accept that it is a complete pipe dream to hope that China could recompense the enormous debt that we and our countries will be left in but the onus is upon them to change because I do not believe that any of us will put up with repeat and again of this type of situation. Certainly it could bring about something very unsavoury that we definitely do not wish for in the future.

It's a simple concept but most of the World is so indebted to China as a country due to balance of payments, imports/exports etc that will never be paid back entirely and are merely serviced with interest payments and has become more or less a manner of keeping score, yes, as I said very simplistic. Perhaps we can all reset the board.
 
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