SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[finneh]

That's generally because you don't believe in society or the goodwill of society, I've read enough of your posts across threads to know that.

The majority in time of crisis are actually able to snap out the individualistic mindset and band together for the greater good, It's human nature. Giving up your freedom requires a lack of choice and instruction but the government and police are merely imposing collective judgement here.

There's a certainly valid debate to be had as to whether people are right to trust governments with creeping legislation.

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

 

[berbatrick]

i don't think it's iillegitimate to be worried about the loving embrace towards a totalitarian government this crisis has caused. most people here called out what happenedn in hungary, which also happened in the name of the virus.
the fact is the erosion of privacy rights in the uk has happened over 15+ years since the war on terror, with mass email spying, long-term police undercover work of peaceful groups, etc. when snowden exposed that first part it made a flutter but died down. the second bit got some coverage and even prosecutions but it didn't really filter through the general public, or the general public already didn't care.

 

[finneh]

That's generally because you don't believe in society or the goodwill of society, I've read enough of your posts across threads to know that.

The majority in time of crisis are actually able to snap out the individualistic mindset and band together for the greater good, It's human nature. Giving up your freedom requires a lack of choice and instruction but the government and police are merely imposing collective judgement here.

There's a certainly valid debate to be had as to whether people are right to trust governments with creeping legislation.

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

 

[Arruda]

Have there been any stats or reporting on people who have recovered from intensive care having any permanent damage or are they making full recoveries?

Is pneumonia something that goes completely if you survive it?

@Arruda sorry to keep asking you this stuff.

Hey. You know I'm always happy to participate.

I don't really know how to answer in very specific terms for Covid-19, but I've read a study suggesting thata long stay in an ICU unit, even upon "full" recovery, may have an impact on longer term health outcomes of the person (increased risk of mortality from other causes, etc) and this risk may be comparatively worse the younger and healthier the person was before critical care.

As for "permanent damage" per se, I presume strong pneumonias, like any other inflammation, can carry a risk of causing fibrosis (scarring) and loss of function of normal pulmonary tissue, but I don't think this is very common.

ICU means a lot of other invasive procedures, and they all carry some risk. I think the most extreme form of critical care is when intubation/ventilation is no longer enough to maintain oxygenation, and your blood needs to be pumped out of the body for oxygenation (a lot more complex than mere dialysis). This is called extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) and not all critical care units have the means/personnel to do this.

All this to say that the procedures are so intensive, and life is sustained in such artificial ways, that some (how many?) people with "full recoveries" won't be in perfect condition, i.e., their health isn't reset to a pre-disease level.

Remember I'm not a clinician, so some stuff above may be a bit off the mark, it's just a general impression. Am happy to be corrected by anyone who understands more of this.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Personally I'll settle for being able to go and see my other half, she only lives ten mins up the road, and I'm missing her like mad, that would do me.

Is either of you in isolation? Surely this is allowed?

 

[zing]

In light of these figures, here's the amended graph of 'deaths aggregated over 3 days'.

Again, I think this is a quite good way of illustrating things in order to even out the inconsistencies of reporting from the NHS.

If the UK can keep anywhere near 1846 over the next 3 days (as horrific as that will still be), I think we can start whispering that we might have finally peaked. It'd still be a few weeks before we're safely on the other side, though.

I don't understand the optimism around flattening the curve. It's because we're all sitting at home doing nothing - it's naturally going to go down.

It means nothing for when we can go out -- it'll pick up the moment we go out.

 

[groovyalbert]

Is either of you in isolation? Surely this is allowed?

A fair few European countries have permitted non-household corona-buddies, and I think you can meet with another person outside your household in Germany. Not so in the UK.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

Your faith in society is misplaced.

If the police allow that one person to sit on a bench 50m from anyone else without telling them to beat it, another person will see them and think "Hey, I can sit on that bench 50m away from anyone else, too" or "Why can;t I go walk the wilderness trails, too?" And the next person will think the same. Humans are inherently selfish. That's not a criticism but when we are all asked to stay home as much as possible we will view anyone who is not doing that with envy and ask ourselves why am I not doing this as well. Then a herd mentality takes over and you get the scenes of crowds of people not maintaining a 2m distance from each other, etc and the resultant spike in infections and hospitalizations a few days later. And this continues longer than it needs to because some people can't do what is asked of them.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

A fair few European countries have permitted non-household corona-buddies, and I think you can meet with another person outside your household in Germany. Not so in the UK.

Didn't know that, thanks. Thought there was a general 'any two people' rule for gatherings.

 

[mav_9me]

I guess the hope here is that there is a vastly greater number of cases that do not need hospital admission. I feel that we would have a far better picture of the severity of the disease and our ability to deal with it (within the constraints of NHS capacity) if we had a better idea of how many people within the population have actually had it and fought it off themselves.

There is no question there is a vast number who are asymptomatic, and another vast number who are mildly symptomatic. And so the real case fatality rate maybe low but when it is so contagious and causing so many infections, percentages lose value and absolutes are more important. For example if it turns out CFR is 1% but it is contagious that vast majority get infected, for example in USA that would be 1 million deaths.

So his point if true that 1/3 of hospitalizarions are dying that's a horrific number.

At my place in USA I wouldn't say that, but we are a small place. I know for a fact NYC is getting killed.

 

[Dante]

I don't understand the optimism around flattening the curve. It's because we're all sitting at home doing nothing - it's naturally going to go down.

It means nothing for when we can go out -- it'll pick up the moment we go out.

It's naturally going to go up. That's what would happen if we were all left to our own devices.

The fact it's going down is due to man-made social intervention.

In other words, our collective effort to socially isolate is working. That's worth celebrating. Well, that and saving thousands of lives.

 

[stepic]

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

did you not see people still going to pubs despite being advised not to, until they were literally forced not to?

or people going to beaches, sunbathing in parks and so on? People clearly can’t be trusted. The draconian measures are necessary because there are so many selfish people out there. Most of us are willing to sacrifice some personal liberties for the greater good, but it only works if we all stick to it. That one lady sitting in a park isn’t a problem but if everyone acts like she does then it is a problem. A draconian line has to be drawn in this extreme situation we’re in. But it’s not like we’re all just going to accept these conditions blindly once the restrictions are reduced.

edit: basically repeated what Dwazza said

 

[JPRouve]

Fair point, good post.

I haven’t heard about those other viruses though, so I don’t know if they were less dangerous or the situation was handled better.

These viruses are viral hemorrhagic fevers and these particular viruses are arenaviruses, most of them rely on direct contact with rodents or their feces/urine and are therefore not currently as threatening. But I imagine that you remember hantavirus for which we observed human to human transmission for the first time relatively recently.

And on the subject of coronavirus and influenza it's worth remembering that a lot of domesticated animals can carry these family of viruses. So it will happen again and most likely until the end of time, in rare occasions the virus will be a biological engineering marvel but most of the time it will be a failure because it either lacks discretion, is too lethal or fail to move to a new host.

 

[sammsky1]

I'm surprised and terrified that people are so willing to give up their essential freedoms because they're a little scared. If someone would have asked me in January how deadly a pandemic would have to be for people to be as willing as they currently collectively are to give up their freedoms I'd have said at least 10x more deadly overall and around 50x more deadly for those under 60.

As someone concerned about the progressive erosion of civil liberties (which is always under the guise of keeping the populace safety) the enthusiasm with which we're gifted our basic rights to government for a bit of purported safety is far more concerning that the virus itself. I've no doubt future governments will look at how quickly we were willing to sacrifice these freedoms and use it as a blueprint.

Literally in this thread less than 48 hours ago a video was posted of someone alone on a park bench in a communal space with no-one within 50 metres of them with close to zero chance for infecting anyone else. Several police officers who were not themselves following the guidelines they were enforcing arrested them without being able to quote the legislation for which they were relying. If that in and of itself wasn't frightening enough, rather than protests regarding a clear abuse of police powers, we have people criticising that the person even had the right to sit on the bench in the first place. We've joyfully sleepwalked into 1984.

I don't think you realise how UK compares with other nations in the world and are either very deluded or completely out of touch with what is going on in the world right now.

What you're saying is that the nation who created capitalism, with one of the worlds oldest democracies, which is dependent on its citizens to have freedom of movement to drive its economy, will wilfully destroy itself just so it can erode its citizens civil liberties?

Any 'civil liberties' that have been eroded during covid19 are purely so this nation can save a million or so of its citizens from dying. And any 'erosions' which remain thereafter would be to ensure that remains so.

In this current context, the lady in the VDO you refer to would have been disappeared in China, beaten up by cops in India or arrested and manhandled in Russia. And yet in the UK, she has the freedom to take the piss out of and waste a policeman's time.

 

[Grinner]

Hey. You know I'm always happy to participate.

I don't really know how to answer in very specific terms for Covid-19, but I've read a study suggesting thata long stay in an ICU unit, even upon "full" recovery, may have an impact on longer term health outcomes of the person (increased risk of mortality from other causes, etc) and this risk may be comparatively worse the younger and healthier the person was before critical care.

As for "permanent damage" per se, I presume strong pneumonias, like any other inflammation, can carry a risk of causing fibrosis (scarring) and loss of function of normal pulmonary tissue, but I don't think this is very common.

ICU means a lot of other invasive procedures, and they all carry some risk. I think the most extreme form of critical care is when intubation/ventilation is no longer enough to maintain oxygenation, and your blood needs to be pumped out of the body for oxygenation (a lot more complex than mere dialysis). This is called extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) and not all critical care units have the means/personnel to do this.

All this to say that the procedures are so intensive, and life is sustained in such artificial ways, that some (how many?) people with "full recoveries" won't be in perfect condition, i.e., their health isn't reset to a pre-disease level.

Remember I'm not a clinician, so some stuff above may be a bit off the mark, it's just a general impression. Am happy to be corrected by anyone who understands more of this.

Interesting. I remember when I was practicing intubation they said be careful because you can crack teeth!

How serious is lung scarring? I wonder if it means even more susceptible to similar corona viruses in the furture. There seems to be a lot of thought that we are going to see more versions in the coming years.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

I think so too, but it’s not a much fancied opinion on here. Expect to be absolutely slated.

Just an extra mention here that you posted “the vast majority,” I absolutely believe you’ll always have plenty of knobheads in every society.

 

[Revan]

These viruses are viral hemorrhagic fevers and these particular viruses are arenaviruses, most of them rely on direct contact with rodents or their feces/urine and are therefore not currently as threatening. But I imagine that you remember hantavirus for which we observed human to human transmission for the first time relatively recently.

And on the subject of coronavirus and influenza it's worth remembering that a lot of domesticated animals can carry these family of viruses. So it will happen again and most likely until the end of time, in rare occasions the virus will be a biological engineering marvel but most of the time it will be a failure because it either lacks discretion, is too lethal or fail to move to a new host.

Was it confirmed to be human-to-human (the person who died in China a week or two ago)?

 

[Revan]

Interesting. I remember when I was practicing intubation they said be careful because you can crack teeth!

How serious is lung scarring? I wonder if it means even more susceptible to similar corona viruses in the furture. There seems to be a lot of thought that we are going to see more versions in the coming years.

I think there are supposed to be at least 150 animal coronaviruses. And I think that all of them are dangerous because we have next to no immunity against them, so there are good chances we will see outbreaks every decade or so. In reality, we had 3 novel coronaviruses in this century, so surely we will have more (though hopefully we will be better prepared and contain them like we did with SARS and MERS).

 

[Arruda]

Interesting. I remember when I was practicing intubation they said be careful because you can crack teeth!

How serious is lung scarring? I wonder if it means even more susceptible to similar corona viruses in the furture. There seems to be a lot of thought that we are going to see more versions in the coming years.

It's pretty damn serious, though there is a difference between diseases like silicosis (coal miners get it), idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis or sarcoidosis (unknown causes) which affect the entire lungs, and fibrosis resulting from infection which is usually localized to the areas that were more seriously hit. It happens a lot in tuberculosis, and I think to some extent in viral pneumonias. A small area of fibrosis will not be noticeable from a functional point of view.

 

[Dancfc]

I think there are supposed to be at least 150 animal coronaviruses. And I think that all of them are dangerous because we have next to no immunity against them, so there are good chances we will see outbreaks every decade or so. In reality, we had 3 novel coronaviruses in this century, so surely we will have more (though hopefully we will be better prepared and contain them like we did with SARS and MERS).

I think I read few weeks back they were hard at work with a vaccine for SARS but stopped as soon as the virus basically fell of the face of earth.

I can't see them making that same mistake again even if this one makes a unlikely sudden disapperance.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Apparently new zealand have done extremely well with quarantine and elimination. Another success for female leadership.

 

[JPRouve]

Was it confirmed to be human-to-human (the person who died in China a week or two ago)?

I don't know about that one but I don't think so. The first recorded human to human transmission was in the 2000s in the Andes I believe. If I'm not mistaken it's the only one that you can get from someone with the illness.

 

[fergieisold]

Hey. You know I'm always happy to participate.

I don't really know how to answer in very specific terms for Covid-19, but I've read a study suggesting thata long stay in an ICU unit, even upon "full" recovery, may have an impact on longer term health outcomes of the person (increased risk of mortality from other causes, etc) and this risk may be comparatively worse the younger and healthier the person was before critical care.

As for "permanent damage" per se, I presume strong pneumonias, like any other inflammation, can carry a risk of causing fibrosis (scarring) and loss of function of normal pulmonary tissue, but I don't think this is very common.

ICU means a lot of other invasive procedures, and they all carry some risk. I think the most extreme form of critical care is when intubation/ventilation is no longer enough to maintain oxygenation, and your blood needs to be pumped out of the body for oxygenation (a lot more complex than mere dialysis). This is called extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) and not all critical care units have the means/personnel to do this.

All this to say that the procedures are so intensive, and life is sustained in such artificial ways, that some (how many?) people with "full recoveries" won't be in perfect condition, i.e., their health isn't reset to a pre-disease level.

Remember I'm not a clinician, so some stuff above may be a bit off the mark, it's just a general impression. Am happy to be corrected by anyone who understands more of this.

So is this something being deployed in the COVID battle do you know? Or something that's maybe done for the young ones with a better chance?

 

[Carolina Red]

I'm surprised and terrified that people are so willing to give up their essential freedoms because they're a little scared. If someone would have asked me in January how deadly a pandemic would have to be for people to be as willing as they currently collectively are to give up their freedoms I'd have said at least 10x more deadly overall and around 50x more deadly for those under 60.

As someone concerned about the progressive erosion of civil liberties (which is always under the guise of keeping the populace safety) the enthusiasm with which we're gifted our basic rights to government for a bit of purported safety is far more concerning that the virus itself. I've no doubt future governments will look at how quickly we were willing to sacrifice these freedoms and use it as a blueprint.

Literally in this thread less than 48 hours ago a video was posted of someone alone on a park bench in a communal space with no-one within 50 metres of them with close to zero chance for infecting anyone else. Several police officers who were not themselves following the guidelines they were enforcing arrested them without being able to quote the legislation for which they were relying. If that in and of itself wasn't frightening enough, rather than protests regarding a clear abuse of police powers, we have people criticising that the person even had the right to sit on the bench in the first place. We've joyfully sleepwalked into 1984.

Oh ffs - are you serious with this shit?

 

[Sassy Colin]

So France, which I had the impression had introduced severe, and certainly more restrictive than the UK, lockdown measures early on in the country's cycle, now seems to be suffering as bad as anyone. 1,417 reported lost their fight in the last 24 hours

They had included the figures from care homes a few days ago, which gave an anomulous figure, perhaps this is also that effect being included?

 

[fergieisold]

I'm surprised and terrified that people are so willing to give up their essential freedoms because they're a little scared. If someone would have asked me in January how deadly a pandemic would have to be for people to be as willing as they currently collectively are to give up their freedoms I'd have said at least 10x more deadly overall and around 50x more deadly for those under 60.

As someone concerned about the progressive erosion of civil liberties (which is always under the guise of keeping the populace safety) the enthusiasm with which we're gifted our basic rights to government for a bit of purported safety is far more concerning that the virus itself. I've no doubt future governments will look at how quickly we were willing to sacrifice these freedoms and use it as a blueprint.

Literally in this thread less than 48 hours ago a video was posted of someone alone on a park bench in a communal space with no-one within 50 metres of them with close to zero chance for infecting anyone else. Several police officers who were not themselves following the guidelines they were enforcing arrested them without being able to quote the legislation for which they were relying. If that in and of itself wasn't frightening enough, rather than protests regarding a clear abuse of police powers, we have people criticising that the person even had the right to sit on the bench in the first place. We've joyfully sleepwalked into 1984.

But...there is no erosion of civil liberties when you actually take a minute to sit back and think for a moment. What's happened is a temporary measure to protect you, not some crackpot tinfoil hat shit to take your freedom away from you.

 

[Penna]

Are you in the UK, finneh? If so, what freedoms have you really given up? You can go to the shops and go out and about a bit. You can order takeaway food, sit at home, watch TV, have a drink. You've not had your front door welded shut.

When things are under control, everything will be relaxed, people can go out anywhere they want, they can go back to work, go out to the pub, to restaurants, to see their friends and family. I'm thinking of the last world war - people lived under enormous restrictions for years and years, million of ordinary men were sent to fight. And then it all went back to normal.

 

[JMack1234]

I saw someone sitting down on a bench today.

Our society is collapsing around us.

 

[Carolina Red]

Your faith in society is misplaced.

If the police allow that one person to sit on a bench 50m from anyone else without telling them to beat it, another person will see them and think "Hey, I can sit on that bench 50m away from anyone else, too" or "Why can;t I go walk the wilderness trails, too?" And the next person will think the same. Humans are inherently selfish. That's not a criticism but when we are all asked to stay home as much as possible we will view anyone who is not doing that with envy and ask ourselves why am I not doing this as well. Then a herd mentality takes over and you get the scenes of crowds of people not maintaining a 2m distance from each other, etc and the resultant spike in infections and hospitalizations a few days later. And this continues longer than it needs to because some people can't do what is asked of them.

Exactly.

In South Carolina they left access to lakes open and we had people taking boats out to islands and sandbars in the middle of lakes and throwing fecking parties.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Are you in the UK, finneh? If so, what freedoms have you really given up? You can go to the shops and go out and about a bit. You can order takeaway food, sit at home, watch TV, have a drink. You've not had your front door welded shut.

When things are under control, everything will be relaxed, people can go out anywhere they want, they can go back to work, go out to the pub, to restaurants, to see their friends and family. I'm thinking of the last world war - people lived under enormous restrictions for years and years, million of ordinary men were sent to fight. And then it all went back to normal.

How do the restrictions in Italy compare to the UK?

 

[Drawfull]

I saw someone sitting down on a bench today.

Our society is collapsing around us.

Unfortunately the virus is indiscriminate, so it's not only getting rid of the uneducated.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Are you in the UK, finneh? If so, what freedoms have you really given up? You can go to the shops and go out and about a bit. You can order takeaway food, sit at home, watch TV, have a drink. You've not had your front door welded shut.

When things are under control, everything will be relaxed, people can go out anywhere they want, they can go back to work, go out to the pub, to restaurants, to see their friends and family. I'm thinking of the last world war - people lived under enormous restrictions for years and years, million of ordinary men were sent to fight. And then it all went back to normal.

Are you saying its going to take years before things are back to normal?

Also, the Corona virus is allegedly something that will return seasonly, so after these restrictions, it’s not going to be the same exact same (in my opinion). They are already talking about an app that is being developed for the EU, which will track people and monitor wether you come into contact with a potential risk individual by using location information from your smartphone. This on its turn becomes a privacy issue.

At this moments many things are uncertain, one thing that is for certain, is that there will be a ‘new normal’, wether that will be normal is another question to judge when its here.

 

[JMack1234]

Are you in the UK, finneh? If so, what freedoms have you really given up? You can go to the shops and go out and about a bit. You can order takeaway food, sit at home, watch TV, have a drink. You've not had your front door welded shut.

When things are under control, everything will be relaxed, people can go out anywhere they want, they can go back to work, go out to the pub, to restaurants, to see their friends and family. I'm thinking of the last world war - people lived under enormous restrictions for years and years, million of ordinary men were sent to fight. And then it all went back to normal.

The freedom to leave your house and see your friends. Quite a biggy.

 

[golden_blunder]

Quite the opposite. I believe that if you provide people with the statistics and explain the problem clearly, the vast majority will comply without force or impinging on their rights.

Arresting people for sitting on a bench 50m from the nearest person, spying on people walking alone with drones and/or forcing people into poverty (closing businesses that have taken lifetimes to build) is something different entirely.

I have great faith in society, just not in government.

You have more faith in society than me. Experience has shown me that a small number of people will always ruin it for the majority. Time will tell if lockdowns are successful

 

[golden_blunder]

The freedom to leave your house and see your friends. Quite a biggy.

And move the infection from one location to another. Engage brain

 

[Drawfull]

And move the infection from one location to another. Engage brain

But when your mouth hangs open permanently, then what?

 

[Carolina Red]

The freedom to leave your house and see your friends. Quite a biggy.

Say that out loud, consider the situation, and see if it still sounds as good as it did when you typed it.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

The freedom to leave your house and see your friends. Quite a biggy.

As Benjamin Franklin once said;

‘They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.’

 

[Carolina Red]

As Benjamin Franklin once said;

‘They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.’

Yeah, that quote doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Sassy Colin]

The freedom to leave your house and see your friends. Quite a biggy.

I can leave my house, although I don't like to unless I really need to. I have also seen my friends via Zoom. Whilst I would really like to be able to meet up with my friends in person and go down the pub or for a meal, I'd quite like my mates to still be around when all this is over.