Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
I genuinely don't know, are they? Do we have sufficient raw materials do produce them on a daily basis, ensure they are delivered and implemented correctly (by giving the public the appropriate training)? Carolina posted the good article that you can clean disposable masks under some very specific set of circumstances, but to industrialise this process also has a timescale, and you also need the public to return their masks (many won't). If you factor all that in, it seems quite difficult rather than easy?
Can’t disagree with this. I’ve looked for masks and it’s like searching for rocking horse shit.
What exactly does the "truth" mean to you in this instance? Because to me, the "truth" would be "you'll need to wear PPE and follow proper procedure for this to be effective"... and since people who arent' trained to do this won't, then saying it isn't effective is the truth.
I'm not saying medical professionals shouldn't be prioritized.
I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.
Also, how difficult is it to wear and dispose of one correctly? I'm sure any government can knock up a video in no time.
There really is no need for a condescending tone. People generally don't follow advice, follow advice poorly or simply ignore advice. The best example is the current president of the USA.
Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
Considering that other countries, which are significantly less rich than the US seem to be able to do so, I guess so. Obviously, we cannot wake a day and say, 'ah, today we change the policy, let's make masks for everyone', but if the problem was looked seriously since January, then we would have been in a much better state. At the end of the day, it is a mask, not rocket science.
And of course, the masks sold for the general public do not need to be as good as those used by doctors (who are at a far higher risk). They do not need to offer 99% protection or close by. They just need to offer some protection and still be combined with social distancing to achieve a higher effect of mitigation. No one is saying, everyone wears a mask and then life goes on as usual.
Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?
Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.
And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
I don't think Korea ever implemented any measures any stricter than most of Europe right now.
As for China, I've no idea whatsoever with that one - have they actually contained it at 80k-ish?
Again it's not what people are telling you, masks usefulness is limited because they depend entirely on how someone acts in general. No one tells you that they don't "work", they simply have a limited usefulness that is greatly reduced by the actions of the person using them.
As anyone suggested that using a mask increase the risks? I'm pretty sure that anyone with a bit of common sense simply said that the usefulness was limited for almost everyone. It's very useful if you have a cold or have Covid-19 though, in that case you should definitely wear one particularly inside.
Wearing a surgical mask does little to prevent you from inhaling droplets. This means it could be worse than not wearing one at all if people change their behaviour because they start thinking they are "protected".
With regards to the secnd point honestly, it is relatively simple depending on the mask. A person can do all these things. People on the other hand don't listen, don't follow advice well or simple ignore it!
Well, the equivalent of Fauci in South Korea said so. There should be an interview in this thread posted a couple of days ago.
South Korea actually had less strict measures than the US and most of Europe. They didn't have a lockdown at all. Probably comparable to the measures of Sweden/Holland, but combined with everyone wearing masks, massive checks on fever, and large-scale testing combined with individual quarantines and contact-tracing. They did not shut down the country, and yet, they have done a far better job than any Western countries. And if that doctor is to be believed, masks are the main difference.
Right...
Emergency texts from the government alerting citizens of nearby cases of coronavirus infection. A government-mandated GPS-tracking app designed to monitor and punish people who break quarantine. Public government reports detailing the whereabouts of every single confirmed patient—down to which theater seat they sat in, which plastic surgery clinic they visited and even where they got their lingerie.
All these examples are part of a sweeping tracking infrastructure erected by the South Korean government to contain the largest coronavirus outbreak outside of mainland China.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus
Masks are pointless for the public in general, people just being idiots. You need to have a certain grade of mask, and then you need to know how to actually wear it. Wearing it and then taking it off with grubby hands and using it again later is absolutely a waste of time. Half the people take them off when talking, defeats the object.
Again, I've never questioned the fact that medical professional should be prioritized. But it shouldn't be that difficult to increase supply.
As for wearing it incorrectly being worse than not wearing one at all? Seriously?
What are the most obvious cases of masks being worn incorrectly?
1 The wrong side is facing in/out
2. It doesn't cover the nose
Not exactly difficult to educate people to do those 2 simple things right.
Seriously?! Isn’t that illegal? Maybe give the old Bill a ring?
Yeah, well, you're wrong... but on the bright side, you've shown absolutely no ability to recognize that fact.
Seems Revan keeps posting what I wanted to say. The main thing being there wasn't a widescale lockdown at all
I take it you haven’t interacted with Cal before? You should discuss Messi and Ronaldo with him. Will make your life complete.
Might find this interesting.
You seem completely incapable to see that the hard numbers in most east Asian countries clearly point to the fact that masks work.
Even the WHO have changed their view on this.
Revan talking to himself
But it is such a ridiculous thing to say in the first place, right? Let's not wear masks because we do not know how to wear them, only the trained people know how to do it.
The reality is:
1) To offer 99% protection (when working with ill patients), you really need to know how to wear it. Because you are in close contact with them, so even a small gap, can make a big difference.
2) When you are in the supermarket shopping, you do not actually need to know how to wear them. You are still keeping social distancing, the mask essentially is just another layer of social distancing. It keeps you from touching the face, if you cough, you cough inside the mask, and if someone coughs, there is a high possibility that some/most of droplets will get stuck in the mask instead of getting into your mouth/nose (and when we are there, use glasses too to protect the eyes). This is better than no protection, it obviously won't give you the same protection as to doctors/nurses, but you do not need it in the first place.
What they said instead was: unless you are a pro, you must not wear a mask, cause you do not know how to do it, and you will make more harm than good. So, wear a scarf instead.
Yes, plenty of time. We saw doctors saying that 'you peasants do not know in what we have to go to wear them', we saw countless people from state officials, to people in twitter, to people here saying that we do not know how to wear masks, so we will do more harm than good by doing so.
It is all a type of propaganda cause the governments miserably failed in ensuring a solid production of masks that will make them available to everyone. So, obviously, saying that 'they protect you to some degree, but doctors need them more, so do not use them' would not have worked with most people, so instead they had to spread lies and misinformation in order to ensure that doctors/nurses have enough masks. Which probably is the right thing to do, they need them far more than us, and they are far more important than us (if I get sick, I'll stay home for 2 weeks, if a doctor gets sick, he also stays home for 2 weeks, but then 100 patients who are really sick cannot get the needed treatment). But the real right thing would have been to increase the production.
It's really tiring debating these issues with both of you. You both seem to be taking the extreme view here, rather than a pragmatic one.
On the plus side, I think I've figured him out early on in this.
They had very strict monitoring using technology, and alerting people if they needed to be quarantined/had been in proximity with someone who had been infected. Caused a few privacy scandals, such as a notification going out about a business manager and his secretary who had been in China on a trip together.
Right, so when it's the "South Korean Fauci" saying masks are the most important thing, it's a strong expert opinion, but when others say it isn't, it's condescending propaganda.
Haven't read every post about masks, so somebody might well have mentioned this already, but regardless of the efficiency, the masks are also used as a sign of responsibility in Asian countries, i.e. "I'm thinking of your well-being". Not wearing one is almost the same as walking around coughing in people's faces. Or so I've heard.
Hmmm
The hard numbers aren't actually due to masks. If you use South Korea it's mainly down to a handful of relatively simple things, first they created an examination protocols that allows doctors to never be in contact with patients and patients to be separated from each others, they use consultations booths outside of hospitals, the other thing is that they are totally connected everyone and their contacts are easily traceable and have been traced, the last point is a culture of cleanliness, they quickly cleaned every sensible spots. All of that is based on their recent experiences with previous coronaviruses.
They’re shooting anything that moves
Honestly,I'm not sure it'll do much.
Some parts are quiet and are clearly sticking to the lockdown guidelines while others places,like where this pub is,are busy. It'll be a lost cause.
On the masks thing. I can confirm that there is, categorically, 100% a severe shortage of the type of masks that HCWs need to wear to protect them while they’re doing the job. Which happens when the whole fecking world tries to buy a product in quantities many thousands of times higher than the manufacturers usually produce. This is one of the biggest challenges that governments face right now in containing the epidemic. If doctors/nurses start getting sick/dying then this whole house of cards really starts falling apart, big time.
Now, have a think about how much worse this shortage would be if every citizen on the planet had been bidding to buy these exact same masks over the last couple of months after governments told them they were essential...
Obviously, if the public had been willing to purchase the sort of cheaper, more widely available masks instead then this potential crisis might have been averted. But, unfortunately, we live in an age full of social media “experts” who would have let everyone know how shit the standard masks are how it’s absolutely essential to bulk buy as many N95 masks as possible, or you’re signing your family’s death certificate. We saw what happened with bog roll ffs. This would have been that x 1000.
Now, have a think about how much worse this shortage would be if every citizen on the planet had been bidding to buy these exact same masks over the last couple of months after governments told them they were essential...
Obviously, if the public had been willing to purchase the sort of cheaper, more widely available masks instead then this potential crisis might have been averted. But, unfortunately, we live in an age full of social media “experts” who would have let everyone know how shit the standard masks are how it’s absolutely essential to bulk buy as many N95 masks as possible, or you’re signing your family’s death certificate. We saw what happened with bog roll ffs. This would have been that x 1000.
But then how does the "guns don't kill people" work?
Bullets kill people. Duh.
This is why I think masks are likely a great help but the fact is that it’s a zero sum game and more lives will be saved discouraging the public from using them in order to maximise the number that reach health service workers.
This is a fair point. Which is why I said that there could have been cheaper/less-protective masks for the average Joe, and N95 and others for doctors/nurses. South Korea had an interesting take on this. They had a shortage of surgical masks too (though it is not called N95 there), so they did a campaign when people who have those masks can donate them, and in turn get the cheaper cloth versions. Which I assume means that those work too for general public (who do not need to have the same protection as doctors), while keep the best masks for the medical people. Which is the right thing to do.