SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Revan said:
It should be mandatory for the rest of the pandemic, regardless if you are sick or not. The problem is that we have such a big shortage of masks, that governments have to lie to tell us that masks do not help, or even are harmful, in order to avoid even more shortages of masks (cause then the doctors and nurses would be screwed). The solution needs to be to make more masks so that everyone can wear them.
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Masks only help if you happen to be in the vicinity of someone who is coughing/sneezing directly near you or you find yourself in an environment where the droplets from the cough/sneeze of a person(s) can remain suspended in the air for a substantial period of time. Neither of these scenarios are likely to occur in public right now. The only people that really need masks are the doctors/nurses/carers - primarily because they are exposed to a large number of people who will be coughing/sneezing and therefore releasing many droplets continuously into the surrounding air.

If there has been advice that masks are harmful, what was probably meant is that some masks don't offer much protection from inhalation of the droplets, if any at all e.g. surgical masks and the "harm" arises from giving people a false sense of security.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Governments have been clear that masks are most helpful at reducing how far a sick person spreads droplets.

There is some anecdotal evidence from South Korea and Taiwan that masks can help people stay healthy but you have to know how to use them and most of us don't.
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The governments have been into 'do not use masks, keep them for the healthcare workers'. Which is a valid argument considering that the healthcare workers need them more than us, and when there is a shortage of them, then the healthcare workers would be screwed (well, die, and then more people die).

Of course, masks help in not getting infected. Why do you think healthcare workers wear them in the first place? It surely is not to not infect the infected patients. The head doctor in South Korea said that masks are very important to not get infected, and even more important to not infect the others, and he showed surprise that people in the west do not wear them.

The shortage of masks is a fecking travesty. Unlike ventilators, it is easy to make them, and they are cheap. The governments had the entire February and a part of January to direct companies to make literally billions of maks. Of course, it wouldn't have solved the problem, but it would have been a part of the solution.
 
0le said:
Masks only help if you happen to be in the vicinity of someone who is coughing/sneezing directly near you or you find yourself in an environment where the droplets from the cough/sneeze of a person(s) can remain suspended in the air for a substantial period of time. Neither of these scenarios are likely to occur in public right now. The only people that really need masks are the doctors/nurses/carers - primarily because they are exposed to a large number of people who will be coughing/sneezing and therefore releasing many droplets continuously into the surrounding air.

If there has been advice that masks are harmful, what was probably meant is that some masks don't offer much protection from inhalation of the droplets, if any at all e.g. surgical masks and the "harm" arises from giving people a false sense of security.
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Well, you mentioned a way of how they help. They also help that the infected it coughing/sneezing in the mask, instead of in the air. And finally, you cannot touch your mouth and nose while you are wearing a mask. Put sunglasses and you cannot also touch your eyes. The chances of getting infected drastically decrease.

I mean, I would trust S. Korea more on this than the West. Of course, there were other reasons why they are doing much better than us, but masks were one of the main reasons (and that is what that doctor said, in fact IIRC, he said that masks was the main difference in handling the situation).
 
Revan said:
The governments have been into 'do not use masks, keep them for the healthcare workers'. Which is a valid argument considering that the healthcare workers need them more than us, and when there is a shortage of them, then the healthcare workers would be screwed (well, die, and then more people die).

Of course, masks help in not getting infected. Why do you think healthcare workers wear them in the first place? It surely is not to not infect the infected patients. The head doctor in South Korea said that masks are very important to not get infected, and even more important to not infect the others, and he showed surprise that people in the west do not wear them.

The shortage of masks is a fecking travesty. Unlike ventilators, it is easy to make them, and they are cheap. The governments had the entire February and a part of January to direct companies to make literally billions of maks. Of course, it wouldn't have solved the problem, but it would have been a part of the solution.
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A bit contradictory there in bold.

As noted, you have to wear the mask properly for it to be effective at reducing your chance of being infected. That means making sure it is fitted to your face, covers your nose and mouth and that you do not touch it every few minutes. People aren't really capable of this from what I've seen (i.e. pulled down with their nose exposed) so there's little benefit in wearing them if you're not sick and they are better left to the healthcare workers.

The shortage is problematic but we are in unprecedented times. No jurisdiction could have forecast needing a billion masks this month.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
A bit contradictory there in bold.

As noted, you have to wear the mask properly for it to be effective at reducing your chance of being infected. That means making sure it is fitted to your face, covers your nose and mouth and that you do not touch it every few minutes. People aren't really capable of this from what I've seen (i.e. pulled down with their nose exposed) so there's little benefit in wearing them if you're not sick and they are better left to the healthcare workers.

The shortage is problematic but we are in unprecedented times. No jurisdiction could have forecast needing a billion masks this month.
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I don't think it is contradictory. I think that it helps from not spreading it if infected, and it helps from not getting infected.

Obviously, this does not mean it ensures either of those things happening, it just minimizes (to some degree) the chances of doing so. And if everyone is wearing them, then even if it minimizes the chances by only 20%, in long run it makes a large difference.

Btw, in Italy (at least in Veneto where my family lives), the police have been going house to house giving masks for free, and mentioning that it is mandatory to wear them outside of the house.
 
Revan said:
I don't think it is contradictory. I think that it helps from not spreading it if infected, and it helps from not getting infected.

Obviously, this does not mean it ensures either of those things happening, it just minimizes (to some degree) the chances of doing so. And if everyone is wearing them, then even if it minimizes the chances by only 20%, in long run it makes a large difference.

Btw, in Italy (at least in Veneto where my family lives), the police have been going house to house giving masks for free, and mentioning that it is mandatory to wear them outside of the house.
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I seen a young fella and his girlfriend crossing at the traffic lights a few days ago. Both were smirking and not wearing masks. The only people I seen that day without a mask on.
 
For the ones that have skin problems with their hands because of the extensive washing? What soaps are you using? I think that using different soaps (I e.g. use natural handmade soaps from the pharmacy) might be a help.
 
Revan said:
The governments have been into 'do not use masks, keep them for the healthcare workers'. Which is a valid argument considering that the healthcare workers need them more than us, and when there is a shortage of them, then the healthcare workers would be screwed (well, die, and then more people die).

Of course, masks help in not getting infected. Why do you think healthcare workers wear them in the first place? It surely is not to not infect the infected patients. The head doctor in South Korea said that masks are very important to not get infected, and even more important to not infect the others, and he showed surprise that people in the west do not wear them.

The shortage of masks is a fecking travesty. Unlike ventilators, it is easy to make them, and they are cheap. The governments had the entire February and a part of January to direct companies to make literally billions of maks. Of course, it wouldn't have solved the problem, but it would have been a part of the solution.
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They prevent you getting infected to some degree depending on fit and other things. If you have it they limit your ability to infect others.

Not like living inside a hazmat suit but they do help.
 
Ian Reus said:
Is there an expiry date on some of these masks?

A shortage now will only lead to an abundance sometime down the line.
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Yes, for reusable respirators, the replacement cartridges have an expiry date. I believe the disposable ones do as well, though I can't remember. I am not sure why either need an expiry date though.

Revan said:
Well, you mentioned a way of how they help. They also help that the infected it coughing/sneezing in the mask, instead of in the air. And finally, you cannot touch your mouth and nose while you are wearing a mask. Put sunglasses and you cannot also touch your eyes. The chances of getting infected drastically decrease.

I mean, I would trust S. Korea more on this than the West. Of course, there were other reasons why they are doing much better than us, but masks were one of the main reasons (and that is what that doctor said, in fact IIRC, he said that masks was the main difference in handling the situation).
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If someone is ill, it won't make any difference to them whether they wear the mask or not. Also when you are ill, the last thing you will want is to wear an uncomfortable mask as well - which may make it even more difficult to breathe. I am not sure whether you can get masks which have integrated oxygen supply to them, but if these exist they will also likely be a lot more expensive. The point then moves again towards preventing the infected patient from infecting anyone else in the vicinity. Again we reach the simplest conclusion which is that doctors/nurses/carers wear the masks.

As explained above, in an outdoor setting, this isn't really an issue.
 
Revan said:
I don't think it is contradictory. I think that it helps from not spreading it if infected, and it helps from not getting infected.

Obviously, this does not mean it ensures either of those things happening, it just minimizes (to some degree) the chances of doing so. And if everyone is wearing them, then even if it minimizes the chances by only 20%, in long run it makes a large difference.

Btw, in Italy (at least in Veneto where my family lives), the police have been going house to house giving masks for free, and mentioning that it is mandatory to wear them outside of the house.
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I don't want to spend hours nitpicking elements in your post.

There is a shortage. The most important users need masks. These are healthcare workers and people with COVID-19. Italy is a mess. They are trying everything they can. Hopefully it works for them.
 
senorgregster said:
100,000 was actually on the low end of what I assume are 95% confidence intervals. 240,000 was the high end of the interval. I'm stunned they didn't state the point estimate for expected deaths. That should be the number being talked about.
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It is by definition in the center of the interval, so it would be 170k deaths (which can also be seen from the graph).
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
I don't want to spend hours nitpicking elements in your post.

There is a shortage. The most important users need masks. These are healthcare workers and people with COVID-19. Italy is a mess. They are trying everything they can. Hopefully it works for them.
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Sure, I agree.

What I said was that they had 2 months to prepare for this, and it seems that every Western government totally failed. Which is why they have now to come with this nonsense 'masks don't help you'.
 
Revan said:
Sure, I agree.

What I said was that they had 2 months to prepare for this, and it seems that every Western government totally failed. Which is why they have now to come with this nonsense 'masks don't help you'.
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Yeah, I don't disagree that they failed. Quite miserably, too. Fingers in ears lalalalala type failure. Can't go upsetting China by considering travellers from there a risk.
 
senorgregster said:
100,000 was actually on the low end of what I assume are 95% confidence intervals. 240,000 was the high end of the interval. I'm stunned they didn't state the point estimate for expected deaths. That should be the number being talked about.
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Confidence intervals only tell you that X% of the time (in this case 95%), you can expect a mean calculated (from a sample of a population) to fall within that particular interval. The name "confidence" only applies to the statistical procedure and not to the actual sample. You will never know if the mean you've calculated actually lies in the interval or not. The values of the interval will also change with each sample because each sample has a different standard deviation and the confidence intervals are calculated, in part, using the standard deviation of the sample, because you don't know the standard deviation of the population.

It gets more complicated and well beyond anything I understand. Only a statistician/mathematician can really explain the entire concept well. (I don't think I've explained it well either!)
 
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Revan said:
It is by definition in the center of the interval, so it would be 170k deaths (which can also be seen from the graph).
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I thought it may be but didn't want to assume it followed a symmetrical distribution (I'm now at the limit of my stats level...)

Which graph by the way? Apparently they are easy to find but no luck yet.

Judging by the deaths per day projection, the mid point of the peak is around 2200 around 15th of April. The same projection had tomorrow at around 750. I believe today is 741 already and yesterday 558?

Edit rephrasing point estimate to mid point.
 
0le said:
Confidence intervals only tell you that X% of the time (in this case 95%), you can expect a mean calculated (from a sample of a population) to fall within that particular interval. The name "confidence" only applies to the statistical procedure and not to the actual sample. You will never know if the mean you've calculated actually lies in the interval or not. The values of the interval will also change with each sample because each sample has a different standard deviation and the confidence intervals are calculated, in part, using the standard deviation of the sample, because you don't know the standard deviation of the population.

It gets more complicated and well beyond anything I understand. Only a statistician/mathematician can really explain the entire concept well. (I don't think I've explained it well either!)
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Fair enough. These numbers are in a different format to what I've typically done with CIs and point estimates.
 
senorgregster said:
I thought it may be but didn't want to assume it followed a symmetrical distribution (I'm now at the limit of my stats level...)

Which graph by the way? Apparently they are easy to find but no luck yet.

Judging by the deaths per day projection, the point estimate peak is around 2200 in mid April. The same projection had tomorrow at around 750. I believe today is 741 already and yesterday 558?
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One of the graph Brix showed, cannot find it (it didn't have a line for the point of estimate, but it was clearly symmetric).

Interval confidence is not the same as the distribution. So, the distribution does not need to be symmetric for the interval confidence to be symmetric. 170k is quite believable if everything goes right though. Scaled back to Italy, that would be Italy having 32k deaths. If we assume that the peak in Italy is this week, and the distribution is Gaussian, then the numbers perfectly match the current data in Italy.

The problem is that I am not sure how much this model counts for a second wave. With 0.65% fatality rate, 170k deaths scale to 26m infected people. That is less than 10% of the population. In that case, no herd immunity is created, so there is going to be a second wave. And if there is no seasonality to the virus, then the second wave does not need to happen in the winter. It will start building the moment when the lockdown gets removed.

The hammer and the dance article seem to be the only solution to the problem (although the article is extremely pessimistic and over exagerates the numbers). But a semi-permanent lockdown (or well some measures + intensive testing/quarantine/contact-tracing needs to happen until the vaccine comes). And even when the vaccine comes, the elderly will still be at risk, considering that most of vaccines do not work as well for old people.
 
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Revan said:
One of the graph Brix showed, cannot find it (it didn't have a line for the point of estimate, but it was clearly symmetric).

Interval confidence is not the same as the distribution. So, the distribution does not need to be symmetric for the interval confidence to be symmetric.
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I stand corrected, I'm beyond my stat level :wenger:
 
Blackwidow said:
For the ones that have skin problems with their hands because of the extensive washing? What soaps are you using? I think that using different soaps (I e.g. use natural handmade soaps from the pharmacy) might be a help.
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Use baby wash.
 
senorgregster said:
I stand corrected, I'm beyond my stat level :wenger:
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And mine, though we were taught that in most cases better to use the statistics correctly (i.e. applying formulas) and leave the derivation/hardcore understanding (deriving formulas/ understanding why formulas are like they are) to statisticians.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Well @ryansgirl, the first thing to understand is that all of the deaths happening now are from cases that happened three weeks ago before any country was locking down, in that sense these were inevitable deaths even if we locked down when England or France did.
The Swedish experts are doing a press conference every day at 2 PM and they seem still fairly happy that the responses they put in place are having an effect because the amount of people going into ICU every day is a very stable level and has been now for quite a while.

For all countries, we will only really know how well they are doing in another two weeks or so, but trust me on the fact that Sweden does not have such a lax attitude as many people think; we have put lots and lots of precautions in place and everyone I know and see everywhere is social distancing.


Add to that we have the most single households in the world at almost 50%, we have the youngest moving out age in the world at just over 18 and people very rarely live in large families with grandparents etc. This means Sweden is a little bit more unique compared to France Spain Italy and even the UK.
Denmark for its population has a similar number of deaths to Sweden and they locked down so that should show you that you can’t draw any conclusions at this point.

Comparing to Australia is daft considering when Australia were getting it’s first 10 deaths. The next couple of weeks will be very telling in Aus.
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Thank you for that information.
 
Sarni said:
I'm not sure Korean ways of dealing with this would be possible to replicate in Europe. Certainly not in Poland.
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South Korea has dealt well with this health emergency. However, as somebody who lived there for nearly 5 years and worked there, I have to say I am not at all surprised that the measures involve a level of surveillance that countries more concerned with human rights would find excessive. The Koreans love technology, it's among the most wired countries in the world and when I lived there high speed open wifi hotspots were everywhere, if you had a contract it was cheap.

It's always been the next step to track people the intrusive way they are doing there right now. South Korea is also similar to Japan. One of the key similarities is the acceptance of authorities running things in such a way as to treat citizens and foreign residents as in constant need of observation and instruction. There has been no terrorism from non Koreans there, there are no groups that pose a threat to the country's system apart from a few North Korean spies. The village mentality is still strong - I had so many people I hardly or didn't know snooping around my legitimate and not interesting activities.

Group pressure is incredibly strong in South Korea. Japan is a softer version but from rental agencies to employers to authorities, there is an over-bearing sense that people with some power and financial influence have the right to take an excessive interest in you and treat you like a child. Again, Japan's terror has not come from foreigners - their own country's people shot up an airport counter in Europe in the 1970s and the sarin gas attack in the 90s was by Japanese. Be careful what we wish for in wanting to control this virus - there will be some loss of civil liberties but we should be careful of approaches like that in South Korea.
 
Wibble said:
I'm just realising how much if this stuff I have forgotten. Not sure I have the energy to get it back either.
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Statistics and probability are very non-intuitive. I always forget it despite dealing with some form of statistics all the time.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Governments have been clear that masks are most helpful at reducing how far a sick person spreads droplets.

There is some anecdotal evidence from South Korea and Taiwan that masks can help people stay healthy but you have to know how to use them and most of us don't.
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People here in Japan use them regularly during hay fever season, to go to work when they're sick - incredibly irresponsible but don't tell them that - when the flu is around and now during this pandemic. It's reasonable to say that face masks play a role among the general population in reducing the spread of infections but there is a big BUT.

I don't wear a mask. Anytime. I keep my distance from people especially people I don't know. It's harder to do that here in Japan but you can. It just takes vigilance. The trouble with masks as I have seen in both South Korea and Japan is that not taking proper care of them is just about inviting an infection.

So the maskless people hacking up and coughing/sneezing their droplets across the train are contaminating the masks that those close to them/not that close to them are wearing. Some people can't find masks because greedy hoarders, selfish people, organised crime have cleaned out stocks.

Mask-wearers then touch their masks, not everyone but I've seen it plenty of times. They hang their masks down to their chins to eat, drink, smoke or talk to people - the interior of the mask is exposed although they think because the surface is in the same place it's fine. If you wear a mask, unless it's an authentic medical one as in solidly protective inside and out, it's possible for your coughing and sneezing to escape in droplets.

Working with customers - I tell them to please keep on their masks if they feel more comfortable and I won't touch any of their documents and books. Some take their masks off and put them on the desk. They don't know if it has been thoroughly cleaned or not - it has by me - but they don't ask and at times the mask is put on the surface the wrong way around.

Many males here wear the same mask from the time they leave their home to the time they get home. Sometimes that's around 12 hours. During that time they have handled it a number of times. Some females are similarly careless but not quite in the same way. Masks also encourage complacency and crowding around others even if they can find a different space.

East Asians seem to have a fear of being alone physically. Theare are countless times in South Korea and Japan where strangers preferred to be very close in free seating trains cars when they could have sat elsewhere, wandered into my space on a main road waiting for the lights when they could have comfortably been somewhere else, in shops literally breathed down my neck around shelves and lines when there weren't many other customers, etc. I've had to tell people nicely to move back as there is some space behind us and there's no need to just about touch me.

So yes - I don't wear a mask. I'm not saying people shouldn't but if they wear one it requires vigilance and commonsense. Since late January I have walked part of my way to work and back home to avoid my local subway line. I know not everybody can do that but there are precautions including that one I take.
 
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ryansgirl said:
People here in Japan use them regularly during hay fever season, to go to work when they're sick - incredibly irresponsible but don't tell them that - when the flu is around and now during this pandemic. It's reasonable to say that face masks play a role among the general population in reducing the spread of infections but there is a big BUT.

I don't wear a mask. Anytime. I keep my distance from people especially people I don't know. It's harder to do that here in Japan but you can. It just takes vigilance. The trouble with masks as I have seen in both South Korea and Japan is that not taking proper care of them is just about inviting an infection.

So the maskless people hacking up and coughing/sneezing their driplets across the train are contaminating the masks those close to them/not that close to them are wearing. Some people can't find masks because greedy hoarders, selfish people, organised crime have cleaned out stocks.

Mask-wearers then touch their masks, not everyone but I've seen it plenty of times. They hang their masks down to their chins to eat, drink, smoke or talk to people - the interior of the mask is exposed although they think because the surface is in the same place it's fine. If you wear a mask, unless it's an authentic medical one as in solidly protective inside and out, it's possible for your coughing and sneezing to escape in droplets.

Working with customers - I tell them to please keep on their masks if they feel more comfortable and I won't touch any of their documents and books. Some take their masks off and put them on the desk. They don't know if it has been thoroughly cleaned or not - it has by me - but they don't ask and at times the mask is put on the surface the wrong way around.

Many males here wear the same mask from the time they leave their home to the time they get home. Sometimes that's around 12 hours. During that time they have handled it a number of times. Some females are similarly careless but not quite in the same way. Masks also encourage complacency and crowding around others even if they can find a different space.

East Asians seem to have a fear of being alone physically. Theare are countless times in South Korea and Japan where strangers preferred to be very close in free seating trains cars when they could have sat elsewhere, wandered into my space on a main road waiting for the lights when they could have comfortably been somewhere else, in shops literally breathed down my neck around shelves and lines when there weren't many other customers, etc. I've had to tell people nicely to move back as there is some space behind us and there's no need to just about touch me.

So yes - I don't wear a mask. I'm not saying people shouldn't but if they wear one it requires vigilance and commonsense.
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A mask does not guarantee protection from the virus, but it's a pretty cheap and effective way defend against it. In that scenario you posted, if you weren't wearing a mask on the train, then the droplets coughed/sneezed by maskless people will directly contaminate your mouth and your face. The only downside I can see, besides panicking the public into hoarding them up like toilet paper, is when it gives people a false sense of security. But if I knew there was an outbreak in the city or town I'm in, I'd definitely wear it as an added precaution amongst other things.
 
Anyone can find the paper form South China University of Technology on the origin of covid-19 virus, which concludes that the virus most likely came from a Wuhan laboratory?
 
0le said:
It has been removed by the author or it has a different link:
http://ifttt.itbehere.com/2020/02/1...obably-originated-from-a-laboratory-in-wuhan/
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I read the l purported full paper - the researchgate link is dead, and it's weird that they woud put a pre print on that site rather than biorxiv. The big evidence in the paper is citation 10, the chimeric SARS virus. But if you follow the link to that paper, which is here, you can see under Biosafety that the research was done in Chapel Hill in the US, 30 mins from where I live, and not in Wuhan. The last author of a paper is usually the professor in whose lab it is done, and he is a professor at UNC-CH. I will also add that the language in the researchgate paper does not match what you usually see in a scientific publication, it reads like a blog.
 
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berbatrick said:
I read the l purported full paper - the researchgate link is dead, and it's weird that they woud put a pre print on that site rather than biorxiv. The bg evidence in the pper is citation 10, the chimeric SARS virus. But if you follow the link to that paper, which is here, you can see under BIosafty that the research was done in Chapel Hill in the US, 30 mins from where I live, and not in Wuhan. The last author of a paper is usually the professor in whose lab it is done, and he is a professor at UNC-CH. I will also add that the language in the researchgate paper does not match what you usually see in a scientific publication, it reads like a blog.
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I couldn't find the paper, so yes, it is more from what I read on other sources mentioning the paper, rather than the paper.

The citation you mentioned comes from a US lab, but does the removed paper I am talking about comes from Wuhan/China? I cannot comment on the language of the paper, but isn't it strange that it comes from a Chinese university, and then was removed entirely? Shame that it was not put in arxiv (well, I guess biorxiv, which I assume is the arxiv equivalent for biology), where a paper cannot be removed.
 
Revan said:
Statistics and probability are very non-intuitive. I always forget it despite dealing with some form of statistics all the time.
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I was ok but unspectacular at biostats at Uni and then in my honors year I was asked to teach the 2nd year Biostats course that I trudged through the year before. I needed the money so said yes and that REALLY motivated me to learnt univariate and multivariate stats properly. Which has leeched away gradually over the last 20 years.

HCdEA5s.jpg
 
Revan said:
I cannot comment on the language of the paper, but isn't it strange that it comes from a Chinese university, and then was removed entirely? Shame that it was not put in arxiv (well, I guess biorxiv, which I assume is the arxiv equivalent for biology), where a paper cannot be removed.
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Maybe it was pulled because it read like it was written by a ridiculous conspiracy theorist?

 
mu4c_20le said:
Maybe it was pulled because it read like it was written by a ridiculous conspiracy theorist?

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Yeah, it does not look great from the snippets posted there. But it is still weird seeing a paper totally removed (papers get retracted from conferences/journals if the authors find out that there were incorrect things, but they don't disappear. And in the case of researchgate, it is just an online website when the paper does not even need to be peer-reviewed to be put there).

Edit: stalked the authors, I cannot find in scholar the last author (typically the last author is the senior author), while the first author seems to be an assistant professor at that university. His credentials seem okay, on the level you would expect from a postdoc or assistant professor who just started the tenure track. He is not an immunologist though (unless we are talking for two people with that name from that same university).
 
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Sounds like bollocks as the proof seems to be,

1) Bats don't fly 800kms
2) Bio-engineering is possible
3) A bio-engineering lab exists near the Wuhan wet market
4) QED is was bio-engineered in that lab and escaped somehow.

Not totally impossible but ...........

As an intermediate host will be responsible and not the original bat population, it strikes me as being little more than a conspiracy theory.
 
Wibble said:
Sounds like bollocks as the proof seems to be,

1) Bats don't fly 800kms
2) Bio-engineering is possible
3) A bio-engineering lab exists near the Wuhan wet market
4) QED is was bio-engineered in that lab and escaped somehow.

Not totally impossible but ...........

As an intermediate host will be responsible and not the original bat population, it strikes me as being little more than a conspiracy theory.
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What about "Nature" article that rules out bioengineering?
 
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