As I doctor I would hope so!
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
Yep.
Compressing the trial timetable during a pandemic proved to be easy. Lots of money, lots of stages running in parallel that would normally be done consecutively (because each stage costs more money and resources - and in normal times each stage needs its own business justification).
Manufacturing plants and new distribution systems were being built before they even knew if the vaccine was working. Lots of volunteers for testing, lots of COVID around to see if the vaccine was effective in practice. Things that can only really happen in a pandemic with the normal financial constraints turned off.
That said, clinical trials are imperfect things. They test tens of thousands of people in a trial, even in huge trials like these were. You know after the trial that there are no common adverse reactions, you know there are no common serious side-effects.
You don't know if there are rarer serious reactions that only affect some groups of people or ones are so uncommon that you're unlikely to see them during the trial. That's when the data from millions of people comes into play - and that's why the vaccines continue to be monitored by the regulators as they roll out to millions and then billions of people.
In other words, I've never had much sympathy for anyone who thinks the clinical trials were bodged or curtailed - they either didn't understand (in which case it was worth trying to explain it) or they were lying. I did have a certain amount of sympathy for the, "you go first," group who wanted to wait for other people around them to get theirs before joining them.
These days the ones keeping this antivax stuff alive are either making money/political capital from it or they've been brainwashed. That said - there are now so few people who haven't had exposure to COVID and/or been vaccinated, that I'm not so worried by the unwilling ones anymore. I'm very worried about the misinformation and grifter lobby who are robbing people now and will do more damage in the future - on multiple diseases, not just COVID, and on multiple vaccine types not just the mRNA ones.
Manufacturing plants and new distribution systems were being built before they even knew if the vaccine was working. Lots of volunteers for testing, lots of COVID around to see if the vaccine was effective in practice. Things that can only really happen in a pandemic with the normal financial constraints turned off.
That said, clinical trials are imperfect things. They test tens of thousands of people in a trial, even in huge trials like these were. You know after the trial that there are no common adverse reactions, you know there are no common serious side-effects.
You don't know if there are rarer serious reactions that only affect some groups of people or ones are so uncommon that you're unlikely to see them during the trial. That's when the data from millions of people comes into play - and that's why the vaccines continue to be monitored by the regulators as they roll out to millions and then billions of people.
In other words, I've never had much sympathy for anyone who thinks the clinical trials were bodged or curtailed - they either didn't understand (in which case it was worth trying to explain it) or they were lying. I did have a certain amount of sympathy for the, "you go first," group who wanted to wait for other people around them to get theirs before joining them.
These days the ones keeping this antivax stuff alive are either making money/political capital from it or they've been brainwashed. That said - there are now so few people who haven't had exposure to COVID and/or been vaccinated, that I'm not so worried by the unwilling ones anymore. I'm very worried about the misinformation and grifter lobby who are robbing people now and will do more damage in the future - on multiple diseases, not just COVID, and on multiple vaccine types not just the mRNA ones.
Moderna saying 15 years worth of progress occurred during the pandemic and that we may now be close to vaccines for some forms of cancer, cardio-vascular and autoimmune diseases.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...t-disease-vaccines-ready-by-end-of-the-decade
https://www.theguardian.com/society...t-disease-vaccines-ready-by-end-of-the-decade
Absolutely, if not more. We had a generational leap in vaccine and diagnostic technologies in 12 months. Some of the stuff my customers are working on is mind blowing.
Nothing to add other than to moan that I've got this fecker again, roughly same time as last year, and it's even less fun. Meant to have been on annual leave this week but had a hacking cough and foggy brain since Tuesday. Finally tested positive today and my damn bones ache. Hoping work will let me put this down as sick leave and I'll get those annual leave days back as I've basically not left one room all week.
Just got my 5th shot, 6 months after getting covid. The first 2 were AZ, the second 2 were Pfizer and the last one Phizer +Omicron. Ever other time I got mild flu symptoms for 24 hrs but this time nothing barring a slight soreness at the injection site.
Last edited:
Evo stik?
Last edited by a moderator:
What happened to John Campbell? At the beginning of the pandemic he seemed very rational and a good communicator. But he seems to have gone full covidiot since, misrepresenting and/or misinterpreting information/data all over the place.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)
Last edited:
Early on I found him to be really helpful in his postings and then weirdly he just became strange.
Unless he has lost the plot maybe he simply is pandering to the antivax audience. Over 4 million in income is nice.
Fame went to his head
This was the first week that I worked as a clinical doctor without mask. It feels so strange, after three years. I feel a tiny lingering anxiety getting very close to patients, not Covid specific. It just seems wrong.
I welcome seeing people faces though.
I welcome seeing people faces though.
He was one of the first persons I used to understand Covid (other than this thread) and never thought he was too bright in the basic sciences required, seemed to lack some depth. But he was tireless in compiling up-to-date information, which made him very useful. Haven't heard him in three years, so have no idea how he changed.
At some point in time, I'm sure he made the suggestion that he had ivermectin in his cupboard in case he caught covid. At that point I stopped taking him seriously. Checked back a couple of times and he's gone batshit crazy. He even had Russell Brand on at one point.
Found his niche. Jump in veiwership from a few of thousand veiws for his educational videos to some over a million views for his Covid update videos suggest maybe that has something to do with it?
Same in Ireland. No masks (unless dealing with patient who has covid) in healthcare settings as of a week or two ago. Great to see.
Anyone listened to this, not here to discuss ludicrous conspiracy theories, just thoughts.
I got this recommended to me via someone in the same industry saying he’s very good.
I know rogan isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but it’s an interesting conversation.
Yes I’m fully aware of his previous controversies
Last edited:
Basically, he’s full of shit. I found out about him through his stuff about statins, which is woefully misinformed. His take on the vaccines isn’t much better.
Like a lot of these agent provocateur medics, there are grains of truth in what he says. But he takes them to ludicrous extremes to attract attention, sell books and generally grift. Goes without saying that his whole “don’t trust the government/big business” shtick is catnip to the average Joe Rogan fan. The perfect guest.
Fair, I’ve heard the polar opposite from others as with any of these things.
Was mainly interested in the discussion about the vaccine side effects specifically the heart, the noise isn’t going away.
That's because the noise is a toxic cacophony of ignorance and grift. Study after study that I have read say the same thing: While there is an increase in the prevalence of myocarditis post vaccination it is dwarfed by the increase in the rates myocarditis, pericarditis and cardiac arrhythmia following SARS-CoV-2 infection.
All vaccines carry some risk depending on the underlying genetic and physiological makeup of each individual. However, that risk is always offset by the significant protections the vaccines offer against diseases whose "side effects" are demonstrably worse.
Here is an excellent (and free full text...I love PMC!!) paper if you are interested in reading more:
Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infection - PMC (nih.gov)
The key passage in the discussion:
Edit: I will admit I have not read anything published in the last 6 months, so if something earthshattering came out that I somehow missed then oopsy.
He just seems insanely biased. The two big red flags are him being convinced that the vaccine caused his depressive episode and his dad’s coronary artery disease. Because they both happened to be vaccinated a few months beforehand. As though no previously fit and well person has ever succumbed to an unexpected illness, out of the blue. That’s so crazily unscientific. He might as well blame an Indian takeaway they ate the previous weekend. Anyone who plays that fast and loose with correlation and causation can’t be taken seriously. The other big red flag is the way he alluded to his appearance on GB News as though it’s a legitimate trustworthy organisation.
In terms of the his take on vaccine data I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he chooses to go deep on vaccine efficacy vs safety based on a dataset involving omicron only. Which is such a benign virus that you’re obviously going to get trivial efficacy vs hospitalisation. Because it barely hospitalises anyone. If the previous variants were all as benign as omicron then you could make a very strong case for binning the whole vaccine roll-out. But that wasn’t the situation we were facing when a) the vaccine was developed and b) when needles first went into arms.
I can see why he gets listened to though. He’s a smart guy, who talks a lot of sense and the idea that big pharma is a psychopath in league with the government to screw us over for money is a compelling narrative. But yeah, huge holes in what he’s claiming. Like a lot of experts who get sucked into the culture war he’s obviously led himself down a garden path some time ago.
Last edited:
People will read into things what ever they want. Look how many 100s of millions, if not billions, have had the vaccine. Possibly more than have had covid.
Give the same amount milk or nuts and you’ll have a bigger % suffering side effects.
I've heard that the world is flat from people. It is still utter bollocks.
Serious side effects are very very rare and miniscule in comparison to the benefits. Most heart effects are even rarer and almost alwasy trivial that clear up quickly without treatment. These are proven facts based on millions of vaccinations. Noise is irreleavant as covidiots are always just as noisy, as they are stupid and wrong.
https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
I also undersratnd that during the pandemic covid cases increased at about the same average rate as electric car ownership
QED
My favorite correlation that is often misused is that fat people drink more diet soda than thin people. Of course it doesn't meant that diet soda makes you fat or fatter than drinking the same amount of full sugar soda. Just that fat people tend to drink more diet soda in an attempt to make themselves less fat.
Last edited:
I don’t doubt they’re very small, still believe there will be a middle ground one day in the future and there will be shown there was more side effects then believed, this does not mean on a mass scale.
While some of the suggestions from people are insanity and ludicrous, I no longer think it’s outrageous to think we may of been coerced to some degree without the full story, this does not equate to we are all going to drop dead like flies.
This is definitely true. It’s true of all new medicines. That’s why we do post marketing surveillance. Very rare side effects are only revealed when a drug has been used for a long time, in huge numbers of people.
What’s reassuring about the covid vaccines is that they have already been used in an absolutely enormous number of people. So even very rare, short term serious side effects would have been uncovered by now. The nature of vaccines means that side effects from long term use are unlikely to be an issue as they’re not taken over the long term, so you don’t get cumulative effects. But even so, I’d agree it’s likely we don’t fully understand the full safety profile just yet.
Of course, the changing nature of the virus is the big issue here. Based on the latest variants the initial vaccine roll out would definitely have been overkill. And the recommendations about who should/shouldn’t receive a vaccine now have changed to reflect that. But it’s arguing in bad faith when people like Dr Malhotra use safety and efficacy data from the omicron variant to argue the initial vaccine rollout was ill-advised. And when someone is prepared to be be so deliberately disingenuous then you have to assume that everything else they say on the topic is also likely to be biased or misleading.
No. We have an incredible amount of data already. The picture we have is very accurate in terms of serious side effects.
Coerced? I'd really hope so.
Last edited:
Imagine if this type of mentality was this pervasive during the global campaigns against smallpox and polio.
That'a not really comparing apples with apples. The risk-benefit ratio for smallpox/polio vaccines is radically different to covid. Although, having said that, I do think we didn't have any choice other than to go with the aggressive vaccine roll-out we went with, due to the paralysing effects of covid on society as a whole. At an individual patient level I don't think the need to get vaccinated is quite so cut and dried. Especially for young patients. And I do think that the decision to vaccinate children doesn't look too clever with hindsight. Always easy to be wise with hindsight though...
I'd be vaccinating my kids if I had any young ones. Universal vaccination for almost everything has such great benefit to society even of herd immunity isn't reached. IMO is should be compulsory/encouraged with making it a requirement for school enrolment and the like and particularly increase the medicare levy (or equivalent) for those who don't.
I had to take my better half to hospital for a broken finger and I was (pleasantly) surprised to see that maks for all were still compulsory.
No doubt if social media was around it would have been.
Terrible opinion.
The risk benefit of vaccinating kids against the current (and, almost certainly, future) covid variants doesn’t add up at all. Making it mandatory for these age groups would be an awful decision. Which, thankfully, will never happen because it would be medical malpractice.
With hindsight, I've got to say the JCVI for example made very few mistakes. Even on the things where they were mixing expediency (low vaccine stocks) with principles like greatest good for greatest number and classical immunology theory. Them opting for the longer windows between first and second vaccination, and a slow approach to vaccinating under 18s were good calls. They were fast when it mattered in terms of saving lives and slow where they could go for caution.
I think that's where hindsight breaks down though - it's easy to forget the context. Fast vaccine rollout with a high uptake of a vaccine that reduced transmission and reduced severe illness was key to restarting normal life.
The misteps (around coercion in particular) were well intentioned and even they were mostly accepted as part of the cost of reopening. Individual risk factors - like past infection and youth - deserved better handling, but it's easy to see how they got sidelined in the overall drive.
Now of course we tend to see everything through the prism of Omicron. But Omicron raced through an already highly vaccinated society and the unvaccinated had mostly had at least one infection already.
Still, it grates with me that the US in particular has continued things like vaccine mandates for foreign visitors. Some colleges etc kept them in place even once they were having minimal impact on transmission and for students with no real risk factors.
Mind you, some bits of the US carried on masking little kids in schools long after we knew it was pointless.
Universal vaccination for almost everything where it has a major impact on the health of the child or the people around them has a great benefit to society. There's no reason to put the COVID vaccines in that category though.
Yeah, the unnecessary use of masks and vaccines in the US is clearly politically, rather than medically, motivated. They’ve managed to make it part of their culture war.