SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Brwned]

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.

There’s a middle ground on each of those two ideas, though. Can you still catch covid? Absolutely. Are you less likely to? Unquestionably. Can you still transmit it? Definitely. Are you less likely to? For sure. The reduction in disease (which you believe) largely explains the relative reduction in transmission, too.

That’s if you believe the government and their scientists. They keep providing all of the evidence demonstrating it. If you don’t believe them, then you can’t really cite them as evidence of your own argument. You just have to stick to the anecdotes that represent a uniquely unlikely set of events.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

[

That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.

Vaccines do reduce the chance of passing the virus on. Even if you ignore the likelihood that vaccinated people who catch covid are less infectious than non-vaccinated then we know for certain that they reduce the chance of catching covid, full stop. And there’s no better way to prevent transmission than stopping someone catching covid in the first place.

There’s an absolute shit-load of robust evidence to prove that everything I’ve said here is true. Anecdotal evidence from a handful of your friends doesn’t alter this fact. We all know stories of people smoking cigarettes into their 80s but that doesn’t make cigarettes any less bad for your health. That’s not how science works.

If you’re interested at all in understanding why it’s important to get vaccinated then please remember these facts. I suspect you’re not, though. So we’re all wasting our time trying to educate you.

 

[Superunknown]

So this is primarily a technical issue right now, and there is a working group setup to fix it. The UK needs to be able to access the data behind the EU QR code but GDPR makes it difficult. It could be done in a few weeks, however that doesn't account for the politicians getting involved as they are now beginning to do, slapping random restrictions on countries.

I'm in a similar position to you. My UK based brother in law is getting married in Spain in just over a month. I can go just fine as I live in Italy. I'm starting to think I might be the only one there.

Cheers for the reply. Here's hoping we hear something about this soon...

Hope it all works out for you! Even if there are compromises that have to be made, I hope the day goes well.

 

[One Night Only]

I feel sorry for you @The holy trinity 68 , you'll get a lot of abuse and people here treating you like you're thick for asking a genuine question.

I'm in the same boat as you, don't really understand the whole vaccine thing.

It seems things are changing too often to get a real effectiveness of the vaccines anyway, I know loads who have been double jabbed and caught it too. Know a fair amount who have had neither jab and caught it aswell. Mrs has it ATM and is double jabbed and has a load of the symptoms, tight chest, hot flushes, can't smell or taste. A lad I know who has neither jab is just finishing his stint of having covid and he just lost his smell and taste.

Obviously that's only 2 people I can think of recently, could work other way round next time.

It's really difficult understanding the whole jab thing for anyone who doesn't want to read every article on it. Doesn't help the system still tries to send me miles away for mine and my doctor's don't appear to understand how phones work

 

[decorativeed]

That is not true though. Most of my friends are fully vaccinated and they still all caught covid over the Euro's. Every single one that caught covid and was vaccinated (7 in total) all gave their parents it and they are fully vaccinated.

It does get transmitted with or without the vaccine. The vaccine also doesn't stop covid from being on your hands and clothes. I caught covid from a fully vaccinated friend and he was actually worse than me even with 2 vaccines to my 0.

The vaccine helps stop covid from being less severe if you do get it, but it doesn't stop transmission.

Government websites even state that you can still catch Covid after vaccination.

Have you considered the fact that it was most likely you - the one unvaccinated friend in your group of friends - who gave them all covid?

 

[One Night Only]

Have you considered the fact that it was most likely you - the one unvaccinated friend in your group of friends - who gave them all covid?

So he was out with 100 friends?

 

[decorativeed]

So he was out with 100 friends?

Yeah, he's Alan Partridge.

 

[Penna]

@The holy trinity 68, if you need to see physical evidence just look at the death rates and how they've fallen. Earlier in the year hundreds of people were dying every day in the UK and other countries, but now it's so much lower in countries where the vaccination programme has progressed well. That's not coincidence, it's entirely because of the vaccines.

If you haven't had your jabs, I'd urge you to go and get them.

 

[One Night Only]

@The holy trinity 68, if you need to see physical evidence just look at the death rates and how they've fallen. Earlier in the year hundreds of people were dying every day in the UK and other countries, but now it's so much lower in countries where the vaccination programme has progressed well. That's not coincidence, it's entirely because of the vaccines.

If you haven't had your jabs, I'd urge you to go and get them.

I think those numbers do speak for themselves, but isn't that because those most vulnerable have been vaccinated already? They'll still catch it but less likely to be hospitalised.

Whereas someone who is not in a danger group could catch it and not end up in hospital anyway even without the vaccine? With case numbers as they are with the amount being vaccinated, it doesn't really look to be doing much to stop the spread as they put it.

That's what I'm not understanding personally. The jabs are doing the grand some of feck all for a lot of people apart from making them bad for a couple of days, then letting them get the virus anyway? They could have got the virus without the jab, and not been ill after their jabs thus they've actually made themselves bad for an extra 2 days.

I know it's only a jab, but a lot of people who have had it seem right up their own arses, it's the new "I'm better than you look at me". I can fully understand why people want it, and why others don't. There are some rough stories, the type of "it'll never happen to me" but it could.

Well done to those who have had the jab.

End of the day it's a personal choice at the moment and I'm fine with people either way.

 

[mitChley]

I think those numbers do speak for themselves, but isn't that because those most vulnerable have been vaccinated already? They'll still catch it but less likely to be hospitalised.

Whereas someone who is not in a danger group could catch it and not end up in hospital anyway even without the vaccine? With case numbers as they are with the amount being vaccinated, it doesn't really look to be doing much to stop the spread as they put it.

That's what I'm not understanding personally. The jabs are doing the grand some of feck all for a lot of people apart from making them bad for a couple of days, then letting them get the virus anyway? They could have got the virus without the jab, and not been ill after their jabs thus they've actually made themselves bad for an extra 2 days.

I know it's only a jab, but a lot of people who have had it seem right up their own arses, it's the new "I'm better than you look at me". I can fully understand why people want it, and why others don't. There are some rough stories, the type of "it'll never happen to me" but it could.

Well done to those who have had the jab.

End of the day it's a personal choice at the moment and I'm fine with people either way.

People who catch covid who have been vaccinated have a significantly (90%+) smaller chance of requiring hospitalisation than those without vaccines. If for example there is a 2% chance of a 28 year old ending up in hospital, that reduces it to 0.2% chance. Vaccines are certainly making a difference.

Plus vaccines reduce transmission, so if you're popping round to give your grandparent a visit the chances of you infecting them are reduced if you are also vaccinated. They are protected greatly by their vaccine, but you also having that vaccine reduces the chance of them getting it even further.

By you, or anyone, not being vaccinated, you increase the risk to me, a vaccinated person. It is a personal choice, but unlike the personal choice of a tattoo your choice effects others, and the more people that make that choice the more it allows Covid the opportunity to move through society.

 

[One Night Only]

People who catch covid who have been vaccinated have a significantly (90%+) smaller chance of requiring hospitalisation than those without vaccines. If for example there is a 2% chance of a 28 year old ending up in hospital, that reduces it to 0.2% chance. Vaccines are certainly making a difference.

Plus vaccines reduce transmission, so if you're popping round to give your grandparent a visit the chances of you infecting them are reduced if you are also vaccinated. They are protected greatly by their vaccine, but you also having that vaccine reduces the chance of them getting it even further.

By you, or anyone, not being vaccinated, you increase the risk to me, a vaccinated person. It is a personal choice, but unlike the personal choice of a tattoo your choice effects others, and the more people that make that choice the more it allows Covid the opportunity to move through society.

I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?

 

[mitChley]

I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?

There are certainly risks to the vaccine, and those risks are assessed and where needed actions taken. For example stopping AZ to under 40s, but right now you are at a higher risk of hospitalisation or death from covid than you are from a vaccine.

Regarding transmission, yes it does reduce it, I can't remember the exact numbers without googling and without wanting to sound rude you can do that yourself.

 

[Penna]

@One Night Only, for things which affect whole populations you can't focus on individuals, you have to look at the big picture. Yes, each case is an individual person, but it's only when you see patterns emerging that you can draw conclusions and make policy decisions.

I had few side-effects from the vaccinations and there are loads of people like me. Others have felt rough for a few days and a tiny number have had serious side-effects. So, from a population viewpoint side-effects are not really an issue, as the vast majority of people have short-lived issues or no issues at all.

With the latest Delta variant, there's no such thing as "not being in a danger group". Fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying. The vaccine gives you the best chance of not getting seriously ill and not dying. You may still get Covid, but it's far less likely that you'll be one of the people gasping for breath in an intensive care unit. That in itself should be a big incentive to get vaccinated.

Earlier on the thread someone posted a link to an article from the US. Of all the people who died in the USA from Covid last month, over 99% were not vaccinated. That's the kind of evidence you need to help you make a decision.

It saddens me that people who live in a country where the vaccines are freely-available and easy to get are still hesitating. Every person who gets the vaccine is helping themselves and other people. This Covid is a public health catastrophe, and we have to all do what we can to mitigate the risk for everyone else.

edit - I should mention that I had a very serious reaction to a vaccination thirty years ago and I agonised about having this one - but I was OK.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

With the latest Delta variant, there's no such thing as "not being in a danger group". Fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying.

That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.

 

[Penna]

That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.

I didn't say that the most at-risk are not the most at risk. I said in reponse to One Night Only that there are no "safe groups", which has been demonstrated by young, healthy people becoming seriously-ill and dying. It's not just ancients with lots of health conditions or super-obese diabetics.

 

[golden_blunder]

I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?

Because most of the new cases are undoubtedly the Delta variant, which by all accounts is worse than the previous. Anyway I’m sure you know this

 

[Rado_N]

That's simply not true. The risk groups are still by far more likely to end up hospitalised, in ICU, or dead.

Thankfully the large uptake of the vaccine in many of these groups in many countries is doing exactly what it said on the tin.

Her point was that “fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying” and there’s no such thing as a “safe group”; which is entirely true.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Her point was that “fit, younger people are becoming seriously ill and even dying” and there’s no such thing as a “safe group”; which is entirely true.

Her point was that is no such thing as “not being in a danger group” and well, of course there is. Every single stat from every single country informs us of that, there are huge danger groups, and those not in those groups.

 

[Rado_N]

Her point was that is no such thing as “not being in a danger group” and well, of course there is. Every single stat from every single country informs us of that, there are huge danger groups, and those not in those groups.

The point being made was that nobody is entirely safe, which however you dress it up remains true.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The point being made was that nobody is entirely safe, which however you dress it up remains true.

It wasn’t the bloody point at all.

If that was her point, then simply say, “anyone can be at danger of getting seriously ill from this”, not dismissing the “not belonging to a risk group” which is scientific fact with a wealth of statistics into the hundreds of millions to back this up.

 

[FootballHQ]

Bit sad really if 85-90% vaccinated is nowhere near enough to get some sembalance of January 2020 back into day to day life in near future.

There will always be people not wanting the vaccine but I'd prefer to look at the 9/10 of population who have and continue to step forward for easy form of national service and say that's a big positive as government were looking at 75-80% take up back in early December from all the opinion polls conducted at the time.

Just looked at Israel which was leading the way with vaccine take up a few months ago....63.5% had their first does as of yesterday. Chile is 61.9% first dose. Germany not yet at 50% and Spain just over at 51%. France with mandatory vaccination in operation for many sectors is at 41%.

U.K for all its faults is doing o.k. Of course roll out wasn't as quick and I guess supply issues aswell but I'd be amazed if any sizeable country in the world gets over 95% vaccination take up in next 6 months.

I assume things wouldn't be pretty if vaccine hadn't been developed until say October 2021 as was predicted when this first hit europe, 500k dead? Lockdown for a full year? So things could be much worse I guess but 90% compliance is still incredibly high number of millions to play with compared to 12 months ago.

 

[Rado_N]

It wasn’t the bloody point at all.

If that was her point, then simply say, “anyone can be at danger of getting seriously ill from this”, not dismissing the “not belonging to a risk group” which is scientific fact with a wealth of statistics into the hundreds of millions to back this up.

I can’t be arsed getting into a prolonged “yes it was” vs “no it wasn’t”, the point being made was perfectly clear to me.

 

[FootballHQ]

Still probably quite soon to see impact on hospitalisation and deaths. Fingers crossed though there isn’t a significant spike.

The lawless euros final will probably not help for figures over next two weeks but England-Germany was over 3 weeks ago now wasn't it? 40k + crowd in for that one and with the win I'm sure a lack of socially distanced celebrations after.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I can’t be arsed getting into a prolonged “yes it was” vs “no it wasn’t”, the point being made was perfectly clear to me.

There’s no “getting into”, she said something extremely incorrect, I corrected her. No big deal, we all spout some garbage on these forums.
You just decided she meant something else, fair play.

 

[Rado_N]

There’s no “getting into”, she said something extremely incorrect, I corrected her. No big deal, we all spout some garbage on these forums.
You just decided she meant something else, fair play.

Uh-huh

I didn't say that the most at-risk are not the most at risk. I said in reponse to One Night Only that there are no "safe groups", which has been demonstrated by young, healthy people becoming seriously-ill and dying. It's not just ancients with lots of health conditions or super-obese diabetics.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I know someone who has a serious side effect to the vaccine, 34 year old, healthy lad. Transverse myelitis or something I think it was called. I can clearly see why people are still iffy with getting it in all honesty. I know there is a risk with every vaccine anyway but obviously the bad side effects of this get reported a lot more widely these days.

Does it really lower transmission? That's the part I don't get at all. If it did, I don't understand why the new cases are as high as they are with so many vaccinated? How much does it lower transmission?

Yes. It lowers transmission. Jesus. Why are so many people asking a question with such an obvious fecking answer?! Is this Facebook bollox doing the rounds or something?

We can be absolutely certain that vaccines lower transmission. We know this because we can be absolutely certain that vaccines reduce your chance of catching covid. By a large %. And the best possible way to avoid transmission is by not catching the virus.

Cases are high now because not everyone is vaccinated and all of the restrictions on behaviour that helped prevent transmission have been removed. If that had happened without vaccines, then cases would be many many times higher.

Does this need to be threadmarked? It’s baffling how many times the same question is being asked, when the answer has already been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

[fergies coat]

I think those numbers do speak for themselves, but isn't that because those most vulnerable have been vaccinated already? They'll still catch it but less likely to be hospitalised.

Whereas someone who is not in a danger group could catch it and not end up in hospital anyway even without the vaccine? With case numbers as they are with the amount being vaccinated, it doesn't really look to be doing much to stop the spread as they put it.

That's what I'm not understanding personally. The jabs are doing the grand some of feck all for a lot of people apart from making them bad for a couple of days, then letting them get the virus anyway? They could have got the virus without the jab, and not been ill after their jabs thus they've actually made themselves bad for an extra 2 days.

I know it's only a jab, but a lot of people who have had it seem right up their own arses, it's the new "I'm better than you look at me". I can fully understand why people want it, and why others don't. There are some rough stories, the type of "it'll never happen to me" but it could.

Well done to those who have had the jab.

End of the day it's a personal choice at the moment and I'm fine with people either way.

Carful mate your not allowed to have a different opinion in this thread.

 

[Brwned]

Carful mate your not allowed to have a different opinion in this thread.

Tragic, right? Putting facts before opinions. Straight up hell on earth right there.

 

[jojojo]

Carful mate your not allowed to have a different opinion in this thread.

Course you're allowed to. Just expect your opinion to be challenged by people with different opinions and stats to back them up.

 

[Carolina Red]

Yes. It lowers transmission. Jesus. Why are so many people asking a question with such an obvious fecking answer?! Is this Facebook bollox doing the rounds or something?

We can be absolutely certain that vaccines lower transmission. We know this because we can be absolutely certain that viruses reduce your chance of catching covid. By a large %. And the best possible way to avoid transmission is by not catching the virus.

Cases are high now because not everyone is vaccinated and all of the restrictions on behaviour that helped prevent transmission have been removed. If that had happened without vaccines, then cases would be many many times higher.

Does this need to be threadmarked? It’s baffling how many times the same question is being asked, when the answer has already been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

Threadmarked

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Threadmarked

I don’t get why the concept seems to be so difficult to grasp? That’s at least two people today making the same point. Basically the same thing as arguing that United shouldn’t bother picking a goalkeeper for their starting XI because they’ve read somewhere that goalkeepers sometimes concede goals.

 

[Carolina Red]

I don’t get why the concept seems to be so difficult to grasp? That’s at least two people today making the same point. Basically the same thing as arguing that United shouldn’t bother picking a goalkeeper for their starting XI because they’ve watched a few games where goalkeepers let in goals.

I’m a firm believer that if by this point you’re still making the argument that the aforementioned are making and “asking innocent questions” then you’ve already made your mind up and are making statements in question form to hide that fact.

 

[dumbo]

People need to start fecking off with the arguing with the vaccine. The data is out there and has been presented fairly widely and clearly. That there is an obvious benefit for the vast majority to getting vaccinated is supported by the available evidence.

All the "but this happened to my friends cousin" and "difference of opinion" shit is fecking rubbish.

If you won't get the vaccine then so be it but expecting others to indulge your ill informed umming and arring gibberish is crap.

 

[RedSky]

Tragic, right? Putting facts before opinions. Straight up hell on earth right there.

What do these 'experts' know anyway? They're just medical professionals after all, surely the average joe knows better after reading a few mindless facebook articles.

It must be so frustrating being a Doctor or NHS worker at the moment.

 

[Wibble]

I am serious. If I want to risk my own health then what problem is it to anyone else?

Because you aren't only endangering yourself. You are seriously endangering those who can't be vaccinated and those who don't have a good immune response to it. You are also escalating the chance of a new variant arising as well as risking huge medical and economic costs. Otherwise most wouldn't care if individuals don't vaccinate and have a shot at a Darwin Award.

 

[berbatrick]

clowns

 

[mav_9me]

I am serious. If I want to risk my own health then what problem is it to anyone else?

If you risk your own health, then if you get sick from COVID will you go to a doctor/hospital? Now imagine if huge numbers thought the same and end up sick and go to the hospital, what a burden that would be on healthcare workers, already reeling for the last year or so.

 

[RoadTrip]

I am serious. If I want to risk my own health then what problem is it to anyone else?

This is such a stupid question / opinion.

If you get Covid, and got sick, and ended up in hospital, there are consequences - not just to you.

There is a cost to the taxpayer for the care you would need to receive.

There is a cost to the individuals who might not get their non-Covid treatment they need because the NHS is too busy.

There is the risk of loss of life due to mental health because of the stress we are putting on our doctors and nurses.

There is the greater risk that you might pass it on to someone else, who then might have the same impact.

There is an increased risk of new variants.

There is a risk that you might kill someone, if you pass it on to someone who couldn’t take the vaccine for medical reasons and were vulnerable to Covid.

This probably doesn’t even capture a fraction of the consequences of you not seeing the bigger picture, which is only heightened when there is a collective of people who think the same way.

 

[Wibble]

clowns

I for one think it is highly likely that the virus escaped from Fort Detrick and then emerged 12,000kms away in Wuhan.

 

[Penna]

@Rado_N, thank you. I'm not sure why my comment's being deliberately misconstrued. No-one can say "I'm in a safe group, I'll never get really sick with Covid." Look at what's happened in India recently as a case in point.