SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

djembatheking said:
It seems we are genuinely out of the worst of it in the UK . I still don`t know whether to believe it. How are things in the rest of Europe and around the world , is Delta causing problems in countries where the vaccine uptake is lower?
Click to expand...

It's not a huge problem in Europe yet. Delta accounts for 22.7% of cases in Italy as of the weekend just gone.

Masks have been compulsory outside until last week and we have also taken a different approach on vaccines. The focus is on getting the second doses done and people fully vaccinated, even if it has to mean a delay in first doses for the young. The UK has done the opposite all along and gone for as many first doses as possible. Personally, i think it's yet another shot in the dark from Boris as we know one dose doesn't provide great protection against the Delta variant, but who knows.
 
11101 said:
It's not a huge problem in Europe yet. Delta accounts for 22.7% of cases in Italy as of the weekend just gone.

Masks have been compulsory outside until last week and we have also taken a different approach on vaccines. The focus is on getting the second doses done and people fully vaccinated, even if it has to mean a delay in first doses for the young. The UK has done the opposite all along and gone for as many first doses as possible. Personally, i think it's yet another shot in the dark from Boris as we know one dose doesn't provide great protection against the Delta variant, but who knows.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that, I think vaccine wise it varies a lot in the UK . I live in Wales and my 22 year old son is booked in for his 2nd dose on 23rd july so we are pretty much done here . Surely we should be safe now.
 
berbatrick said:
...
Click to expand...

pretty proud of this one now :)

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/07...-vaccination-for-every-three-prevented-cases/
Journal retracts paper claiming two deaths from COVID-19 vaccination for every three prevented cases

At least two members of the editorial board of Vaccines have resigned over the paper’s publication.
[...]
The data from the Lareb report (https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen) in The Netherlands were used to calculate the number of severe and fatal side effects per 100,000 vaccinations. Unfortunately, in the manuscript by Harald Walach et al. these data were incorrectly interpreted which led to erroneous conclusions. The data was presented as being causally related to adverse events by the authors. This is inaccurate.
[...]
Walach and a co-author, Rainer Klement, sent us a statement they had submitted to Vaccines. In it, they write, “The true reason seems to have been pressure on part of some editors of the journal”
Click to expand...


I actually agree with the last bit. A journal that published an article like that would only retract if they were under pressure - or their business model was getting publicity.
 
jojojo said:
Yep, to be honest the missing businesses are ones that people who are at most risk can avoid until case numbers calm down. Which if the number juggling of the modellers is accurate should happen in August.

I would like to see compulsory masks and social distancing continue in those places that the at risk can't avoid. So, in particular the shops we considered essential (primarily supermarkets and chemists) and on public transport. A measure of protection for people so that the 19th July genuinely is a step forward for everyone.

At the moment, I'm aware it's a step backwards for some of my family who had just started going shopping again for example (and even going out for a meal!) and who now have decided to retreat again. Which means I'm back to being the designated shopper and I'll be buying FFP2 masks for me, having been content with washables and surgical masks during the "if you're both wearing a mask the risk is less" era.
Click to expand...

I’ve gotta be honest, I don’t care if they get rid of masks in hospitality, but I don’t really understand why they don’t keep the guidance the same for public transport or retail. Those who don’t want to wear one won’t anyway, so why not just keep it in place for all the people that will just do what the guidance says. Just seems like a PR stunt that isn’t actually having any positive benefit, apart from satisfying skeptic voters.
 
djembatheking said:
Thanks for that, I think vaccine wise it varies a lot in the UK . I live in Wales and my 22 year old son is booked in for his 2nd dose on 23rd july so we are pretty much done here . Surely we should be safe now.
Click to expand...

At only 22 and with one dose in him already I'd say you're pretty safe :)

It's those 40 or 50 year olds who for whatever reason might not have gotten the vaccine when it first became available to them and now have to wait 8-12 weeks for the next dose that i think might be at risk from this removal of all restrictions.
 
11101 said:
At only 22 and with one dose in him already I'd say you're pretty safe :)

It's those 40 or 50 year olds who for whatever reason might not have gotten the vaccine when it first became available to them and now have to wait 8-12 weeks for the next dose that i think might be at risk from this removal of all restrictions.
Click to expand...

They don’t. Anyone over forty can go to a walk-in site and get one. Provided you’re over the four week minimum since first dose. I would imagine they get priority to book ASAP if they have no walk in near by too.
 
I expect a winter lockdown will be needed since they won’t be sensible & keep reasonable measures in place whilst cases continue to rise.
 
They’ve had all this time to refine mask rules.

But instead they’ve just gone away with it all.

For example, is it pointless to have to wear a mask from entering a restaurant until you sit down when you can take it off? Yes. And makes sense for those silly rules to go.

On the other hand, surely it would be sensible to keep masks mandatory in things like public transport where you not only have the potential to spread easily but also to spread to different locations given the various onward/origin destinations of people.

I’m happy that some restrictions are easy and I do think that overall is a right step, but there should be some kind of balance here.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong but their approach is once again to push a level of natural herd immunity against the Delta variant?

They know this is going to cause a spike but it’s not expected to be as high as if it happened during the winter. So their plan is to have a medium spike now and hope that saves us from a massive spike in the winter.
 
Pexbo said:
Correct me if I’m wrong but their approach is once again to push a level of natural herd immunity against the Delta variant?

They know this is going to cause a spike but it’s not expected to be as high as if it happened during the winter. So their plan is to have a medium spike now and hope that saves us from a massive spike in the winter.
Click to expand...

That doesn’t make sense because there’s no need to rely on infections for immunity ahead of winter. The vaccines will do that instead. A medium spike before everyone is fully vaccinated carries no upside at all. Other than the upside of opening as originally scheduled.
 
Goodness me. So many inconsistencies in the briefing from Boris. And the scientists seem to be going along with it. The key message was that they have to open up at some point and it is best not to do that in the winter. So better to do it now. Remember. We are being guided by the DATA and not the DATE.
And the message about masks was farcical in the extreme. The advice is still to wear a mask inside and in crowded places. And yet we don't have to wear a mask after 19th July.
Well I for one is going to carry on as I have been.
 
I feel for the vulnerable who basically cant leave their houses again for risk of infection. only a quick look at the daily mail comments section shows how much appetite their is to never wear a mask again regardless....
 
Superden said:
I feel for the vulnerable who basically cant leave their houses again for risk of infection. only a quick look at the daily mail comments section shows how much appetite their is to never wear a mask again regardless....
Click to expand...

From what I have seen recently, so many have already stopped. Or wear it round their chin...
 
Superden said:
I feel for the vulnerable who basically cant leave their houses again for risk of infection. only a quick look at the daily mail comments section shows how much appetite their is to never wear a mask again regardless....
Click to expand...

I hate the term “freedom day” that so many in the media & politics have used, particularly with the masks. Wearing wearing a mask is not some draconian measure that you need to be freed from, ffs!!!
 
It's ramping up again in schools

They're even preempting the problems their desperation to throw everything back to normal will cause as apparently "sadly deaths will go up"

Oh but obviously that's fine provided they can go back to normal :rolleyes: it doesn't help all the moaning that went on after they pushed it back a month.

But don't forget even though "deaths will go up" we need to learn to live with COVID....

I also hate the title freedom day
 
Did they say anything about fully vaccinated people having to quarantine on arrival in the UK? I thought they were supposed to release some information on that today but can't find anything about it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That doesn’t make sense because there’s no need to rely on infections for immunity ahead of winter. The vaccines will do that instead. A medium spike before everyone is fully vaccinated carries no upside at all. Other than the upside of opening as originally scheduled.
Click to expand...

Which I think to them is big enough, benefit wise socioeconomic and politically, to feel that they can be risky.

I'm wondering if the angle is more of a combination of herd immunity through ongoing aggressive vaccination (including third doses, in addition to shorter intervals) with an increase in cases that are milder than previous, that doesn't translate into hospitalisations and deaths.

So going into the winter you'll have that combination keeping the next winter peak plateau'd (in all terms cases, deaths etc)

Don't agree with it though mind. Along with possibility that variants could emerge, the balance is finer I feel with other viruses back into play, and inevitable burst of cases suddenly due to summer time mixing in various indoor settings that'll make superspreader event with this more infectious variant.

The other thing is they keep harping about in the UK about delayed care for daycases operations and focusing on other diseases, mental health etc. That's certainly out the window as covid will surely be the main thing NHS will have to focus on.
 
Buster15 said:
Goodness me. So many inconsistencies in the briefing from Boris. And the scientists seem to be going along with it. The key message was that they have to open up at some point and it is best not to do that in the winter. So better to do it now. Remember. We are being guided by the DATA and not the DATE.
And the message about masks was farcical in the extreme. The advice is still to wear a mask inside and in crowded places. And yet we don't have to wear a mask after 19th July.
Well I for one is going to carry on as I have been.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of things we are allowed to do but advised not to do, for personal and community health. The guidance is that in places where there is higher risk, take more precautions, in places where there are lower risk take less, and we’ll provide the information that allows for informed choice, but we won’t mandate them in law: that’s a normal part of government practice.

We have already seen that transition in the US. When Fauci is in his home state he doesn’t wear his mask in most indoor situations, if he’s in a county with higher risks of infection and lower levels of protection, and he finds himself in higher risk environments (crowded, indoors, etc) then he will put on a mask. He is pretty well versed in risk assessment and among the more vulnerable populations too, so the idea of choosing not to wear a mask isn’t a completely ludicrous decision. But it’s also perfectly reasonable for people to be more risk averse too. This doesn’t restrict that choice.

The biggest transition we’ll be making is convincing the population that more personal freedoms are in society’s best interests, even when risks exist. Right now a lot of people are so distrustful of their neighbours and their leaders that restrictions are their comfort blanket. That carries serious risks too. People are better versed in risk assessment now than they were two years ago. Giving them that choice is a healthy thing for society. Whether it’s the right time is of course debatable but no matter when we do it, that same issue will exist: the virus will be there, it will pose risks, and we’ll need people to make choices in that environment.
 
Last edited:
Pogue Mahone said:
That doesn’t make sense because there’s no need to rely on infections for immunity ahead of winter. The vaccines will do that instead. A medium spike before everyone is fully vaccinated carries no upside at all. Other than the upside of opening as originally scheduled.
Click to expand...
I’m just trying to understand it beyond Tory ignorance. Why lift the requirement for masks? There’s no economic impact to it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that they want the virus to spread. If thats not for a malicious reason then it can only be for herd immunity.

Don’t forget that there is a percentage of people (children mostly) that will not be vaccinated before winter. Boris said if you can’t open in summer when you have an advantage then it will be winter when the virus has the advantage. Does he mean that we plan to close again in winter? Or does he mean he hopes we will increase our immunity over the summer and be ready for winter?
 
Pexbo said:
I’m just trying to understand it beyond Tory ignorance. Why lift the requirement for masks? There’s no economic impact to it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that they want the virus to spread. If thats not for a malicious reason then it can only be for herd immunity.

Don’t forget that there is a percentage of people (children mostly) that will not be vaccinated before winter. Boris said if you can’t open in summer when you have an advantage then it will be winter when the virus has the advantage. Does he mean that we plan to close again in winter? Or does he mean he hopes we will increase our immunity over the summer and be ready for winter?
Click to expand...

The only thing I can think of is that it is perhaps linked to the fears of a really bad flu season this winter? That alongside covid could be bad so they're wanting natural immune systems to be in operation ahead of then?

I'm probably being far too generous here.
 
11101 said:
It's not a huge problem in Europe yet. Delta accounts for 22.7% of cases in Italy as of the weekend just gone.

Masks have been compulsory outside until last week and we have also taken a different approach on vaccines. The focus is on getting the second doses done and people fully vaccinated, even if it has to mean a delay in first doses for the young. The UK has done the opposite all along and gone for as many first doses as possible. Personally, i think it's yet another shot in the dark from Boris as we know one dose doesn't provide great protection against the Delta variant, but who knows.
Click to expand...
There were 480 new cases and 17 deaths today in Italy, which is reassuring.
 
no information on travel yet, supposed to come later this week. Not a big fan of Cummings, but his recent commentary on Boris is absolutely spot on, and makes for galling reading, not that the boris cult will acknowledge any of it.
 
Buster15 said:
Yep. Pretty much sums it up.
Zero scientific evidence.
Zero sense.
Zero logic.
All about the date.
Click to expand...

Pretty much

I tried to listen to what logic this was predicated on. I have enormous respect for Prof Whitty but I don't see how the summer break is seen as decreasing chances of community spread when everybody will be planning meet ups and trips. All at once. Seeding this highly infectious variant as they go along.

Would have much preferred if mask mandates were kept for public transport and indoor hospitality/theatres etc. That literally has no downside apart from a few conspiracy theory cry babies making a fuss.

I just admitted a patient into hospital today who had both AZ jabs, tested positive for covid, he had chest pain and was coughing up blood.
There's a lot of freedoms people are still enjoying now, I get though that certain industries are struggling but there's no plan to combat surge in cases that I can see. When that should at the very least be the aspirational thing to do.

I can foresee the next talking point will be if people are cautious and staying home and businesses not picking up it'll be framed in a culture war mindset ala eat out to help out where it'll be implied people aren't patriotic enough to set aside their selfish self-interest in not catching covid versus spending and helping the country economically.
 
The culture war aspect of mask wearing is as you say inevitable, @Wolverine .
This has always been this govts way of dealing with difficult situations, make it binary and blame the people, create sides. The anti-woke brigade will just have another major issue to get their teeth into.
 
Legally it might not have gone but here in West Yorkshire people not wearing masks went in March. Getting on the bus from work earlier half the bus didn't have a mask on. I'm personally always gonna wear one while travelling round a city centre or public transport even after all this is over.
 
Wolverine said:
Would have much preferred if mask mandates were kept for public transport and indoor hospitality/theatres etc. That literally has no downside apart from a few conspiracy theory cry babies making a fuss.
Click to expand...

Indoor hospitality is a funny one to be honest, there never was great logic in wearing it to be seated to a table/use the toilet when people are not wearing it for 95% of their visit. Public transport I can see the logic for remaining, and any mass transit function.

However, whilst the headlines are about mask free, the story is more about it not being a legal requirement now. People just need to exercise caution and choice now if they feel they don't want to take the risk.

Buster15 said:
Yep. Pretty much sums it up.
Zero scientific evidence.
Zero sense.
Zero logic.
All about the date.
Click to expand...

Playing devils advocate for a second here, there is some logic to trying to open up now without restrictions, more than doing so in the winter. If we can't open now, then there is limited chance at all for this year. It's easy for most of us sat behind a screen saying this, but there's plenty of businesses and people that are happy to manage the risk moving forward. The argument presented over the last 12 months has been that vaccines are the way out of this, and since those with the highest risk of death are now immunised, is there any logic to still have restrictions?
 
Pexbo said:
I’m just trying to understand it beyond Tory ignorance. Why lift the requirement for masks? There’s no economic impact to it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that they want the virus to spread. If thats not for a malicious reason then it can only be for herd immunity.

Don’t forget that there is a percentage of people (children mostly) that will not be vaccinated before winter. Boris said if you can’t open in summer when you have an advantage then it will be winter when the virus has the advantage. Does he mean that we plan to close again in winter? Or does he mean he hopes we will increase our immunity over the summer and be ready for winter?
Click to expand...

I can only see economic reasons.

Everybody wearing masks breeds caution and fear (rightly so, after 4 million deaths). With the US almost back to normal and Europe threatening to open up again imminently, the government needs to UK economy running at full tilt this summer. Masks remind people that they should behave differently.
 
I am giving the government too much credit here, but the reason for mentioning summer versus winter may be because there will be large chunk of people who refuse to vaccinate. It will be low in the UK compared to a lot of other countries but I would still expect it to be around 10 to 15% overall. If a proportion of those can get it now rather than all over the winter when respiratory infections spread easier anyway it may spread the strain on the NHS.

On the unvaccinated subject, the US is likely to have big problems eventually. They're struggling to get above 70% overall now with empty centres in loads of places.

The government are complete idiots though. The statement made no sense at all with the only reasoning being we have to open. At least put some scientific basis to back it up.
 
11101 said:
I can only see economic reasons.

Everybody wearing masks breeds caution and fear (rightly so, after 4 million deaths). With the US almost back to normal and Europe threatening to open up again imminently, the government needs to UK economy running at full tilt this summer. Masks remind people that they should behave differently.
Click to expand...
And what about the flip side to that? The people who won’t have the confidence to go to public events because they don’t feel safe with loads of people not wearing masks and not socially distancing?
 
Pexbo said:
And what about the flip side to that? The people who won’t have the confidence to go to public events because they don’t feel safe with loads of people not wearing masks and not socially distancing?
Click to expand...
Hard to say which would have a bigger effect but I suppose no masks may encourage people to go out and spend money in the short term.

I think that people will grow increasingly tired of wearing masks, even sensible people and take their chances.
 
Pexbo said:
I’m just trying to understand it beyond Tory ignorance. Why lift the requirement for masks? There’s no economic impact to it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that they want the virus to spread. If thats not for a malicious reason then it can only be for herd immunity.

Don’t forget that there is a percentage of people (children mostly) that will not be vaccinated before winter. Boris said if you can’t open in summer when you have an advantage then it will be winter when the virus has the advantage. Does he mean that we plan to close again in winter? Or does he mean he hopes we will increase our immunity over the summer and be ready for winter?
Click to expand...

I think you’re giving them too much credit. Politicians often make decisions based on what will win them votes rather than what is the most sensible or logical thing to do. There doesn’t have to be a master plan. This is just BoJo playing to his base.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think you’re giving them too much credit. Politicians often make decisions based on what will win them votes rather than what is the most sensible or logical thing to do. There doesn’t have to be a master plan. This is just BoJo playing to his base.
Click to expand...
I won't deny the idiocy of BoJo and the Tories but isn't there not another election due for at least three years? Not sure what the point of playing to his base here is, and.. I doubt anyone was actually expecting them to remove every restriction to early, like wearing masks etc.
 
F-Red said:
Indoor hospitality is a funny one to be honest, there never was great logic in wearing it to be seated to a table/use the toilet when people are not wearing it for 95% of their visit. Public transport I can see the logic for remaining, and any mass transit function.

However, whilst the headlines are about mask free, the story is more about it not being a legal requirement now. People just need to exercise caution and choice now if they feel they don't want to take the risk.
Click to expand...

I think that's a fair point regarding indoor hospitality.
There was no mention of healthcare settings having mask mandates. I wonder if they'll allow any private business the legal framework to enforce mandatory mask wearing in their premises.

There was the Queensland health minister who mentioned that this thing is contagious with even seconds of fleeting close contact thats the worry
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...eed-to-know-about-sydneys-delta-covid-variant
 
Wolverine said:
I think that's a fair point regarding indoor hospitality.
There was no mention of healthcare settings having mask mandates. I wonder if they'll allow any private business the legal framework to enforce mandatory mask wearing in their premises.
Click to expand...

There won't be any legal framework for businesses to do that, it's quite clear the government have left it down to personal choice & discretion of the individual. Healthcare settings make sense to me, given the nature of the place and the demographics going through there. However, infection control protocol surely managed this prior to 2020 right? So either that wasn't fit for purpose or they've realised that they should have had masks all along in those settings.

Wolverine said:
There was the Queensland health minister who mentioned that this thing is contagious with even seconds of fleeting close contact thats the worry
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...eed-to-know-about-sydneys-delta-covid-variant
Click to expand...

I don't deny that there's more transmissibility with variants, but given that we've now had it as the most prevalent strain in the UK from the beginning of last month, we'd surely this in the data of hospitalisations and deaths in line with cases. Vaccines either work or they don't, and the data is suggesting that they are, so the confidence to open up either needs to be there to support an immunisation programme, otherwise what message does it send? The long and short is that it just needs to be managed now like the other virus' we have sadly. Natural selection should hopefully sort out the anti-vaccine brigade.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.