SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

starman said:
Reading through the last few pages of this thread I am curious about what is "acceptable" for the amount deaths for people on here.

The Government completely botched the first lock down and were atleast 2 weeks late with their inactions directly contributing to the high death rate. In that time when the UK was hitting 20k Germany was around 2k, iirc, and were highly praised at the time, but looking at them now are upto 55k. Taking into account similar population size, cultural attitudes and the slight difference in population density, would 65k be acceptable?
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We have double the deaths and a smaller population than Germany. But you think we should set a death target of how badly the UK government are allowed to handle this pandemic? Wtf.
 
BluesJr said:
This should be getting done 24/7 so people can tangibly see the damage that’s being caused every day. Too many just don’t give a feck because they aren’t seeing the impact.
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Absolutely. My colleague at work just lost her Mum to Covid last week. Her Dad caught it in the supermarket 2 weeks ago, then within 1 week of that her Mum caught it from him, she died in hospital. So sad.

Her Dad recovered.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
We have double the deaths and a smaller population than Germany. But you think we should set a death target of how badly the UK government are allowed to handle this pandemic? Wtf.
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Clearly you haven't comprehended the question, and cherry picked bits of information from my post rather than taking into account the whole thing, take a breath, you are obviously looking for offense
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Absolutely. My colleague at work just lost her Mum to Covid last week. Her Dad caught it in the supermarket 2 weeks ago, then within 1 week of that her Mum caught it from him, she died in hospital. So sad.

Her Dad recovered.
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The poor dad will be questioning himself to eternity if he could have done online shopping instead
 
golden_blunder said:
The poor dad will be questioning himself to eternity if he could have done online shopping instead
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Poor guy. He is quite old I think so not too online savvy.

I think they did try online shopping earlier in the pandemic when it was near impossible to get a slot. I guess they never tried again.

Really brings it home. Their whole family is devastated.

When I think this has happened 100,000 times, the scale of grief for these families is shocking!
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Absolutely. My colleague at work just lost her Mum to Covid last week. Her Dad caught it in the supermarket 2 weeks ago, then within 1 week of that her Mum caught it from him, she died in hospital. So sad.

Her Dad recovered.
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My son's Grandma died with Covid last Thursday in North Carolina. My son was waking me up at 3 a.m. while he was on Whats App with his Dad. I did not want to ask too many questions (but it itched in my fingers...) This side is full of Retrumplicans and I have read enough stupid stuff about masks - but I guess when you mourn it is not the time to talk about that.

His Granny was fighting breast cancer for years with good and better times - there were years when it seemed to be extinguished and then it came back. But as much as I know there was no recent spread and the death now came pretty unexpected.
 
FireballXL5 said:
Is there anyone on here who still thinks the government gives a shit?
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I think they care about prolonging it so they can make more money yeah. All these dodgy contracts they've dished out to Tory donor start up companies will be coming back into their pockets before the next election. Boris Johnson is just poor mans Hans Gruber.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I think they care about prolonging it so they can make more money yeah. All these dodgy contracts they've dished out to Tory donor start up companies will be coming back into their pockets before the next election. Boris Johnson is just poor mans Hans Gruber.
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I think many of them see it as mostly wiping out the poor, the elderly and the sick so see it as a bit of a win-win really. Maybe a few of their mates will get it but those are acceptable losses.
 
Come on now. You can’t seriously think they want to prolong this? They might have made a mess of containing the virus but they’re doing better than almost anyone else at vaccinating you lot against it. Which isn’t a tactic you’d expect from a government that wants the pandemic to persist.

Which brings up some more cognitive dissonance. Seeing as the Tory’s get the blame for the high death toll, do they deserve credit for the impressive vaccination numbers?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Come on now. You can’t seriously think they want to prolong this? They might have made a mess of containing the virus but they’re doing better than almost anyone else at vaccinating you lot against it. Which isn’t a tactic you’d expect from a government that wants the pandemic to persist.

Which brings up some more cognitive dissonance. Seeing as the Tory’s get the blame for the high death toll, do they deserve credit for the impressive vaccination numbers?
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for me it's more about they have not made their decisions on what's best for people.
 
Grinner said:
for me it's more about they have not made their decisions on what's best for people.
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Yeah same. Comment was obviously tongue in cheek but it's clear from the decision making (or lack of it) that it was always about money first and people second. Even know they're dithering on quarantining people flying in and looks like it will only be a half measure anyway.

I will give them credit for rolling out the vaccine quickly and successfully but I remain sceptical of the succesful part based on everything else that has proceeded it. I think this government has proven every step of the way that they are ill equipped to govern in normal times, much less a global crisis.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Come on now. You can’t seriously think they want to prolong this? They might have made a mess of containing the virus but they’re doing better than almost anyone else at vaccinating you lot against it. Which isn’t a tactic you’d expect from a government that wants the pandemic to persist.

Which brings up some more cognitive dissonance. Seeing as the Tory’s get the blame for the high death toll, do they deserve credit for the impressive vaccination numbers?
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"Nearly 60% of Britain's total official COVID-19 deaths have taken place since 21st September, when SAGE urged the government to take drastic action to prevent a "very large epidemic with catastrophic consequences".
Their advice was ignored."
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
"Nearly 60% of Britain's total official COVID-19 deaths have taken place since 21st September, when SAGE urged the government to take drastic action to prevent a "very large epidemic with catastrophic consequences".
Their advice was ignored."
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I see what you are saying there, but sage are advising purely from an immediate health point of view regarding the virus aren't they. The government are balancing this with our needs as a wider society. It's easy to say we should have shut down everything earlier, harder, longer, but at what cost? Every choice made through the course of the pandemic has a human cost in lives, now or down the line.
Some of the government's choices have been wrong, in my opinion. It's interesting though that you pick the recent rise in deaths. We all know the risks as we have had almost a year to get our heads around the situation, surely we also have to accept some responsibility for this huge rise in cases and deaths.
The last few months I've worked with, seen people, and heard of many people just dismissing this virus as a hoax, and not a serious threat. These people have to shoulder an equal proportion of blame as the government for the predicament we are all in.
Not having a go at you personally by the way, and as I've said, the government have been far from perfect, but often blame can start with the man or woman in the mirror
 
worldgonemad said:
I see what you are saying there, but sage are advising purely from an immediate health point of view regarding the virus aren't they. The government are balancing this with our needs as a wider society. It's easy to say we should have shut down everything earlier, harder, longer, but at what cost? Every choice made through the course of the pandemic has a human cost in lives, now or down the line.
Some of the government's choices have been wrong, in my opinion. It's interesting though that you pick the recent rise in deaths. We all know the risks as we have had almost a year to get our heads around the situation, surely we also have to accept some responsibility for this huge rise in cases and deaths.
The last few months I've worked with, seen people, and heard of many people just dismissing this virus as a hoax, and not a serious threat. These people have to shoulder an equal proportion of blame as the government for the predicament we are all in.
Not having a go at you personally by the way, and as I've said, the government have been far from perfect, but often blame can start with the man or woman in the mirror
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So you go with government incompetence rather than malice, which is perfectly reasonable. I believe it is a combination of government incompetence combined with cronyism and the Tory Party being more easily influenced by rich business associates/donors/lobbyists rather than scientists.

I don't accept your point about blame starting with the populace though. That is pure deflection (by the government fuelled by the media, not you personally) and if you follow the ridiculous choices, policies and illogical rule changes by the UK government you can lay 90% of the blame at their door for the UK having the highest death toll per million in the World.
 
Grinner said:
for me it's more about they have not made their decisions on what's best for people.
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It’s a very difficult position to be in. Lockdown too early and you ruin people’s business’, increase unemployment etc. Lockdown too late and people die. There are very fine margins to work with.

They got it completely wrong, but I can understand (even though I don’t agree) with delaying lockdowns.

I have no love for the Tories at all, but they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.

Take the school situation for instance. They were destroyed for not closing the schools in December and are now being destroyed for not committing to a date to reopen schools. How can they win in a situation like that?
 
My sister in law had COVID back in March. She’s in USA. She had an antibodies test about 6 months later and they were still present.
Anyway, she just had another test a few days ago and they are still present
 
Garethw said:
It’s a very difficult position to be in. Lockdown too early and you ruin people’s business’, increase unemployment etc. Lockdown too late and people die. There are very fine margins to work with.

They got it completely wrong, but I can understand (even though I don’t agree) with delaying lockdowns.

I have no love for the Tories at all, but they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.

Take the school situation for instance. They were destroyed for not closing the schools in December and are now being destroyed for not committing to a date to reopen schools. How can they win in a situation like that?
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this is a fair point but do you not just think people are more angry now because of the way the past 12 months has ridden out??

I said in April the country, and its borders should have been locked down before the initial lockdown.

Would this have caused anger from people and business owners. Yes, of course. Would those same owners understand if we had been able to re-open safely now? Again, yes, I think so.

I think the government have failed massively, but I still hope it down to incompetence rather than anything else.

At least 50% of this country are morons and/or selfish though so these tw@ts will still be in power the day after the next GE
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
So you go with government incompetence rather than malice, which is perfectly reasonable. I believe it is a combination of government incompetence combined with cronyism and the Tory Party being more easily influenced by rich business associates/donors/lobbyists rather than scientists.

I don't accept your point about blame starting with the populace though. That is pure deflection (by the government fuelled by the media, not you personally) and if you follow the ridiculous choices, policies and illogical rule changes by the UK government you can lay 90% of the blame at their door for the UK having the highest death toll per million in the World.
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As i said , mistakes have been made by the government , which have directly cost lives . Thats the black and white of it . Early on in particular we were slow to react and that lead to death .Putting people into care homes without testing , led to death. For comparison , other countries in europe acted more strongly and suppressed the 1st wave , i,m thinking of germany and france in particular as they have similar populace and demographics , and also similar experience of pandemic. They also , at the time ( germany in particular ) were heralded for their test and trace systems. Im not blind to the fact the government have made mistakes here , and rightly they are getting called out for that . ( Though i will say , the opposition have been abject in almost every way . Nicola Sturgeon though has been consistent and clear throughout , to her credit )

Regarding from the middle of the pandemic to date , i do believe the government have acted better ( not perfect by any stretch , and the xmas idea was a complete clusterfeck ) , but the testing system , from my own experience worked really well and was ramped up to beyond that of our neighbours in germany and france . Germanys heralded system fell apart and was overwhelmed when hit with the numbers we had in the first wave . Given the progression of time and the lower deaths and cases initially , i could also argue Germany have performed worse during this second wave than we have . I know you will argue that your point was not about how other countries are performing but about our gevernment , but i think mental comparison does play a part in our thinking that " We " are doing well or not .

For example " We seem to have been ahead of the game regarding vaccinations and that is something that should be lauded , some bright in the dark .

Ive commented before that the media have acted very irresponsably throughout , though i have not seen much positive/ negative Tory or labour spin on it to be honest , just bad , lazy , dangerous knee jerk clickbait style stuff that in worse than fake news in many ways. i ,m going to use the highest death rate in the world quote as an example of that . looks good on a headline , but according to world of meters , other countries do have higher death rates per million , belgium being one .

People are an issue though i,m afraid , and we will just have to agree to disagree on that . Part of it is demographic , we are old and fat as a nation , so the fat part at least we have to take ownership of . Large numbers of people have chosen to ignore the advice not to mix unless essential , Black lives matter protests and gatherings , shisha bar groups , weddings in jewish schools spring to mind . Thats the people mate , choosing to say feck it , and dominic cummings going for a drive as an excuse does not cut it with me .

Ive no doubt after this there will be heads to roll , a fall guy here or there , a dodgy deal being uncovered . ive also no doubt that some of the people saying ' well they deserve it " will be the same people who went to a new years party then went home and killed an aunt or uncle or mum or dad
 
Garethw said:
It’s a very difficult position to be in. Lockdown too early and you ruin people’s business’, increase unemployment etc. Lockdown too late and people die. There are very fine margins to work with.

They got it completely wrong, but I can understand (even though I don’t agree) with delaying lockdowns.

I have no love for the Tories at all, but they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.

Take the school situation for instance. They were destroyed for not closing the schools in December and are now being destroyed for not committing to a date to reopen schools. How can they win in a situation like that?
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No. They are being destroyed because they threatened schools with lawsuits, forcing them to reopen, knowing full well the new variant was spreading wildly. Then after 1 day of school, they backtracked and closed schools.
 
K Stand Knut said:
this is a fair point but do you not just think people are more angry now because of the way the past 12 months has ridden out??

I said in April the country, and its borders should have been locked down before the initial lockdown.

Would this have caused anger from people and business owners. Yes, of course. Would those same owners understand if we had been able to re-open safely now? Again, yes, I think so.

I think the government have failed massively, but I still hope it down to incompetence rather than anything else.

At least 50% of this country are morons and/or selfish though so these tw@ts will still be in power the day after the next GE
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I 100% agree pal.
 
K Stand Knut said:
this is a fair point but do you not just think people are more angry now because of the way the past 12 months has ridden out??

I said in April the country, and its borders should have been locked down before the initial lockdown.

Would this have caused anger from people and business owners. Yes, of course. Would those same owners understand if we had been able to re-open safely now? Again, yes, I think so.

I think the government have failed massively, but I still hope it down to incompetence rather than anything else.

At least 50% of this country are morons and/or selfish though so these tw@ts will still be in power the day after the next GE
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This government are swayed by too many people with a vested interest. Agree they should have shut the borders, but boohoo it would upset too many people. They should not have opened things back up so early. I would rather be alive than have my hair done or my nails done. Christmas, another disaster. The majority will have been sensible, but it doesn't take many stupid people to make the infection rate rise. The fact that most of the victims of this will have been doing everything the right way and have died due to other people selfishness. Too many self-entitled people, entitled to go to the pub, entitled to go for a meal, entitled to go on holiday or drive miles for a day out.
 
tombombadil said:
No. They are being destroyed because they threatened schools with lawsuits, forcing them to reopen, knowing full well the new variant was spreading wildly. Then after 1 day of school, they backtracked and closed schools.
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100%. Complete incompetence from them. But thankfully they changed their stance and did shut the schools. It’s no surprise that infections rates have massively dropped since the schools closed.

But they are now under immense pressure to open them back up which would be ludicrous.

Keep the schools shut until Easter and, get the infection rate as low as possible in that time.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
This government are swayed by too many people with a vested interest. Agree they should have shut the borders, but boohoo it would upset too many people. They should not have opened things back up so early. I would rather be alive than have my hair done or my nails done. Christmas, another disaster. The majority will have been sensible, but it doesn't take many stupid people to make the infection rate rise. The fact that most of the victims of this will have been doing everything the right way and have died due to other people selfishness. Too many self-entitled people, entitled to go to the pub, entitled to go for a meal, entitled to go on holiday or drive miles for a day out.
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Well said mate.
 
Not learning from past mistakes is probably the worst. Once getting down to single digit deaths and just 600 cases with widespread community testing they left it too long in the Autumn once it was clear trying to live with the virus wasn't working, they lost control again. The big one which has added so many more deaths and a huge lasting swell of cases and deaths is not locking down nationally hard when the new strain was clearly a problem which was around early to mid December. They again left it way too long by many weeks this time along with a more contagious strain over a holiday period. Even without a new strain it required more action, to leave it that long and keep growing exponentially is how you have weeks of 1-2k deaths per day.

You see in the first wave how long it took for UK to get cases down, about a month longer than other countries in Europe, we saw again the restrictions weren't working in the Autumn. How they let it run in December is baffling, all the data is there to show recovery is very long and painful and requires hard action early in the UK.

It's like sitting on a beach shore hoping the tide won't come in this time and cover you in water. They've tried to straddle economy and cases/deaths but have done the worst on both. Biggest economy shrink as well.
 
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DomesticTadpole said:
This government are swayed by too many people with a vested interest. Agree they should have shut the borders, but boohoo it would upset too many people. They should not have opened things back up so early. I would rather be alive than have my hair done or my nails done. Christmas, another disaster. The majority will have been sensible, but it doesn't take many stupid people to make the infection rate rise. The fact that most of the victims of this will have been doing everything the right way and have died due to other people selfishness. Too many self-entitled people, entitled to go to the pub, entitled to go for a meal, entitled to go on holiday or drive miles for a day out.
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Completely agree mate.
 
Garethw said:
It’s a very difficult position to be in. Lockdown too early and you ruin people’s business’, increase unemployment etc. Lockdown too late and people die. There are very fine margins to work with.

They got it completely wrong, but I can understand (even though I don’t agree) with delaying lockdowns.

I have no love for the Tories at all, but they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.

Take the school situation for instance. They were destroyed for not closing the schools in December and are now being destroyed for not committing to a date to reopen schools. How can they win in a situation like that?
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I think I find this argument the most spurious of them all.

It's been uses to defend all manner of absolute bullshit, with the repeated result that the uncertainty, delay and lack of action hurts businesses more than an earlier, more targeted intervention.

It's pretty clear by now that the most pro-business approach is the Australia and New Zealand one which has allowed significant normality for most people for about 10 months.

But, oh no, business (especially cnuts like the bosses of Ryanair and Easyjet) pissed their pants and here we are in a situation far worse for everyone.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
This government are swayed by too many people with a vested interest. Agree they should have shut the borders, but boohoo it would upset too many people. They should not have opened things back up so early. I would rather be alive than have my hair done or my nails done. Christmas, another disaster. The majority will have been sensible, but it doesn't take many stupid people to make the infection rate rise. The fact that most of the victims of this will have been doing everything the right way and have died due to other people selfishness. Too many self-entitled people, entitled to go to the pub, entitled to go for a meal, entitled to go on holiday or drive miles for a day out.
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My good mate told me a story yesterday about his sister and her family - 4 boys all late teens or early 20s, the husband - all had serious symptoms from 17th to 28th December and carried on with life without telling anyone - including visiting families etc at Christmas. Spread it loads of others.
Talk about selfishness and stupidity
 
McGrathsipan said:
My good mate told me a story yesterday about his sister and her family - 4 boys all late teens or early 20s, the husband - all had serious symptoms from 17th to 28th December and carried on with life without telling anyone - including visiting families etc at Christmas. Spread it loads of others.
Talk about selfishness and stupidity
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That boils my piss so badly. How the FECK can any rational human being(s) be so unbelievably selfish?!
 
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