SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

But let's pretend I'm anti-vax

Stop being such a queen. I didn’t accuse you of being Anti-Vax. I accused you of being irresponsible.

It would have been so much more sensible to just temper your future statements. Instead, you double down and hunt out some links that don’t come anywhere close to back up your claim that Hospitals are losing an impactful number of nurses and doctors due to vaccine side effects.

Grow up. It’s only the internet but you can be better. I’ll pop you on ignore anyway.

 

[tombombadil]

Bear in mind we've got to the point (here in the UK) where we have literally shut down nearly everything we can because "the NHS could become overwhelmed"

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...l-to-be-raised-to-5-highest-possible-12179280

I think that asking everyone with any and all possible symptoms cold/flu/respiratory/guttural/etc to stay at home might be better than shutting down the country?

Just a thought.

Considering UK is entering lockdown, every one is already automatically self isolating. Which basically renders any more additional testing moot. The key purpose of the lockdown is to auto isolate everyone until the hidden infections clear off and therefore breaking the chain of infections, after all. But if the lockdown is too lax, you may be right that more testing may be necessary. But that is again, moot, because do you even have the capacity to test and contact trace even more?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

BBC telling people to wear masks during sex with your partner. They are openly trolling at this point

 

[tombombadil]

BBC telling people to wear masks during sex with your partner. They are openly trolling at this point

Are you fecking kidding?

Do you have any links?

Edit: Nvm found it ...

That's why the Terrence Higgins Trust recommends not kissing, wearing a face mask during sex and favouring positions where you're not face-to-face.
It adds the virus has been found in semen and poo, which is why you should use condoms and dams for oral sex to minimise risk.
And given we're supposed to be doing it after most things - washing your hands for more than 20 seconds or using hand sanitiser before and after sex is recommended

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53736087

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Do you believe that achieving "Covid Zero" as many groups advocated despite widespread community transmission could be achieved in a more libertarian manner? If so I'd file that under disingenuous.

In this thread alone there's been numerous posts praising China's reaction and lamenting the fact that we didn't adopt a far more authoritarian approach.

Stop applying political labels. You’re so goddamn dramatic when you’re on the hook.

If you think there’s a large number of people in this country that are advocating Chinese lockdown methods then you’re consuming the wrong media. It’s not happening. You’ll get the odd nut but rarely is anyone looking for anything even approaching that.

The two scenarios you posited are not even vaguely comparable in audible volume or number of voices. One is a major problem to society. The other is a fart in a hurricane.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Are you fecking kidding?

Do you have any links?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-53736087

 

[tombombadil]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-53736087

Thanks. That's a good laugh.

 

[rcoobc]

Considering UK is entering lockdown, every one is already automatically self isolating. Which basically renders any more additional testing moot. The key purpose of the lockdown is to auto isolate everyone until the hidden infections clear off and therefore breaking the chain of infections, after all. But if the lockdown is too lax, you may be right that more testing may be necessary. But that is again, moot, because do you even have the capacity to test and contact trace even more?

We certainly have additional testing available in the form of the lateral flow tests. These were designed to test those with symptoms, not those without.

Pogue posted a study from Birmingham Uni showing they are completely ineffective when testing those without symptoms. Which is what the UK gov is using them for.

I think it would be better if, when booking a test, it asks you what symptoms you have.

If the three main symptoms you would self isolate and then get a PCR test. If other symptoms, you would get a lateral flow test (but have to self isolate until then).

Over time this could actually reduce the requirement on test, track and trace because it would reduce the number of people infected.

Or it wouldn't work. I don't know.

 

[rcoobc]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-53736087

That's actually refreshing.. at least the BBC seem somewhat aware people are going to break the rules regardless.

Even if they then expect them to not kiss, not do oral and to always wear a condom

 

[finneh]

Stop applying political labels. You’re so goddamn dramatic when you’re on the hook.

If you think there’s a large number of people in this country that are advocating Chinese lockdown methods then you’re consuming the wrong media. It’s not happening. You’ll get the odd nut but rarely is anyone looking for anything even approaching that.

The two scenarios you posited are not even vaguely comparable in audible volume or number of voices. One is a major problem to society. The other is a fart in a hurricane.

On this forum there's far more people sympathetic to the China approach than think the virus is a hoax. If memory serves there was literally a thread asking if we should be more like China a few months ago.

In terms of threats to Western society I would put the use of fear as a tool to propagate totalitarian ideals far above a small minority of nut jobs believing the virus is a hoax. Hell our Home Secretary is regularly guilty of the former, whilst I've seen no member of the cabinet promoting Covid denial.

 

[rcoobc]

On this forum there's far more people sympathetic to the China approach than think the virus is a hoax. If memory serves there was literally a thread asking if we should be more like China a few months ago.

In terms of threats to Western society I would put the use of fear as a tool to propagate totalitarian ideals far above a small minority of nut jobs believing the virus is a hoax. Hell our Home Secretary is regularly guilty of the former, whilst I've seen no member of the cabinet promoting Covid denial.

I mean. Just look at New Zealand

 

[tombombadil]

We certainly have additional testing available in the form of the lateral flow tests. These were designed to test those with symptoms, not those without.

Pogue posted a study from Birmingham Uni showing they are completely ineffective when testing those without symptoms. Which is what the UK gov is using them for.

I think it would beg better if, when booking a test, it asks you what symptoms you have.

If the three main symptoms you would self isolate and then get a PCR test. If oth symptoms, you would get a lateral flow test (but have to self isolate until then).

Over time this could actually reduce the requirement on test, track and trace because it would reduce the number of people infected.

Or it wouldn't work. I don't know.

I get what you mean. It's just that, at this point, there may no longer be a purpose to test a person unless he needs to get medical attention.

Some of the guidance I've read basically describe drawing a line between containment and mitigation.

If it is under control, containment is in play and you focus on testing and tracing.

If you lose control, you move to mitigation. You give up on unnecessary testing. You stop tracing altogether. You keep everyone isolated and focus on those that need medical attention.

E.g. WHO documentation below. Page 29.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/managing-epidemics-interactive.pdf

The point is, when resources become stretched, you need to change your priorities.

 

[finneh]

I mean. Just look at New Zealand

If you're referring to a Covid zero approach I don't believe they ever had widespread community transmission. That's disregarding the key differences between both countries (if I've misread your point apologies).

 

[arnie_ni]

Hospital in ni appealing for any staff close to come in and work

 

[jojojo]

I understand your reaction . When BFA Hernandez posted that I initially thought he must be a hypochondriac.

It's a gutteral reaction, if someone goes against the prevailing wind of public opinion, they must be conspiracists or idiots.

Ive said it's second hand evidence, worse than circumstantial. I provided my source (my friend who is an NHS doctor).

For what it's worth the 3 people I know of who have had the vaccine so far didn't have major issues. One said she feels like her body was doing "something", and felt hot.

I'm not going to apologise for passing on information from my NHS doctor mate. If it was "my mate down the pub" sure.

In fact I've just written all that and I think that there is already studies showing people having worse reactions of they've had the viruses (of other vaccines). Let me see

I think the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines in particular are known to trigger side-effects in a lot of people - and to trigger severe (that potentially keep you off work for a day or two) side-effects in more people than we're used to with flu jabs for example. The Moderna jab in particular has something like 10% of people experiencing severe fatigue after the second jab.

The numbers were released as part of the clinical trials Phase3 report, but as those are really long documents I'll link to a press report instead: https://www.vox.com/22158238/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-explained

As Pogue said - some people get flu like symptoms (fatigue, headache, joint pain etc). Mostly mild, but in a significant number it's more severe (but generally shortterm). I've read some of the vaccine advisors commenting that for a hospital (for example) it would be better not to vaccinate all the staff in a particular department on a single day - just to reduce the odds of having a bunch of people absent or unable to work normally the next morning.

 

[rcoobc]

I think the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines in particular are known to trigger side-effects in a lot of people - and to trigger severe (that potentially keep you off work for a day or two) side-effects in more people than we're used to with flu jabs for example. The Moderna jab in particular has something like 10% of people experiencing severe fatigue after the second jab.

The numbers were released as part of the clinical trials Phase3 report, but as those are really long documents I'll link to a press report instead: https://www.vox.com/22158238/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-explained

As Pogue said - some people get flu like symptoms (fatigue, headache, joint pain etc). Mostly mild, but in a significant number it's more severe (but generally shortterm). I've read some of the vaccine advisors commenting that for a hospital (for example) it would be better not to vaccinate all the staff in a particular department on a single day - just to reduce the odds of having a bunch of people absent or unable to work normally the next morning.

Thanks. If you accept my hypothesis that side effects are caused by the bodies immune reaction (hence worse for the 2nd jab) and that a lot of NHS staff have already had COVID - then the effects could be even worse for NHS staff compared with random portions of the population.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thanks. If you accept my hypothesis that side effects are caused by the bodies immune reaction (hence worse for the 2nd jab) and that a lot of NHS staff have already had COVID - then the effects could be even worse for NHS staff compared with random portions of the population.

An immunologist in Ireland is arguing that vaccinating people with documented prior infection is a waste of a finite resource.

There was a paper in the NEJM last week looking at reinfection amongst HCWs. Only 2 out of 223* that had previous confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection became re-infected and both were asymptomatic, whereas there were 223 infections among 11,364 workers that had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2. That works out as efficacy better than any of the vaccines. 100% protection against symptomatic covid. Considering the risk of missing a couple of days off work when they’re vaccinated I’d be inclined to agree with him.

Although there’s a bit of a moral issue here too. You could argue they deserve the extra reassurance of a vaccine for continuing to put themselves in harm’s way.



*Which scuppers the idea that the half a dozen cases of reinfection that made headlines up to now were a true reflection of incidence. It was always likely that there were many thousands more cases of reinfection that weren’t picked up and written about.

@Wibble

 

[rcoobc]

An immunologist in Ireland is arguing that vaccinating people with documented prior infection is a waste of a finite resource.

There was a paper in the NEJM last week looking at reinfection amongst HCWs. Only 2 out of 223 that had previous confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection became re-infected and both were asymptomatic, whereas there were 223 infections among 11,364 workers that had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2. That adds up to 100% efficacy. Better than any of the vaccines. Considering the risk of missing a couple of days off work when they’re vaccinated I’d be inclined to agree with him.

Although there’s a bit of a moral issue here too. You could argue they deserve the extra reassurance of a vaccine for continuing to put themselves in harm’s way.

Also, they regularly have contact with the elderly etc.

I would very much like for all teachers to be vaccinated, however.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[Wolverine]

I had mine this weekend. Feel a bit crap, arm hurty. Maybe a bit if lethargy, not helped by having a very hyper toddler. But dosing up on regular ibuprofen and paracetamol. More than worth it. Pfizer vaccine, my second dose is in March.

Will be spending a large part of next few months seeing people face to face for consultations and vaccinations in my GP practice. feel infinitely better about things now.

Hearing more or less the same from most of my colleagues and HCW friends.

 

[Dumbstar]

Keep that genocidal cnut away from everything. Please.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is pretty remarkable. Estimated 20% of UK have been infected already. Up to 50% in some areas.

Arguably makes an even more compelling case for doing an antibody test on everyone and putting everyone with prior infection at the back of the queue. Would be a major shortcut to herd immunity, assuming supply is the rate limiting step.

 

[Wibble]

On this forum there's far more people sympathetic to the China approach than think the virus is a hoax. If memory serves there was literally a thread asking if we should be more like China a few months ago.

In terms of threats to Western society I would put the use of fear as a tool to propagate totalitarian ideals far above a small minority of nut jobs believing the virus is a hoax. Hell our Home Secretary is regularly guilty of the former, whilst I've seen no member of the cabinet promoting Covid denial.

The fear of covid isn't a tool to propagate totality ideas. It is just a silly thing to say.

I doubt 1 person is advocating a Wuhan style lockdown but a NZ or AU style response would have saved most of the 80,000 lives lost in the UK so far.

 

[Pexbo]

This is pretty remarkable. Estimated 20% of UK have been infected already. Up to 50% in some areas.

Arguably makes an even more compelling case for doing an antibody test on everyone and putting everyone with prior infection at the back of the queue. Would be a major shortcut to herd immunity, assuming supply is the rate limiting step.

Isn’t it the case that antibodies aren’t necessarily always present after a certain period although the body is capable of quickly making more should they come into contact with the virus?

So you could have someone who is essentially “vaccinated” however an antibody test wouldn’t actually suggest that?

 

[Cutch]

Hospital in ni appealing for any staff close to come in and work

My wife works here. Seemed strange to ask staff to come in by social media, and not by you know, ringing them

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Isn’t it the case that antibodies aren’t necessarily always present after a certain period although the body is capable of quickly making more should they come into contact with the virus?

So you could have someone who is essentially “vaccinated” however an antibody test wouldn’t actually suggest that?

Kind of true, yes. Although the serology tests for prior exposure specifically test for the type antibody that lingers round the longest. But there is a chance that some people with undiagnosed prior infection would get a vaccine. Not really a problem though.

 

[Wibble]

Isn’t it the case that antibodies aren’t necessarily always present after a certain period although the body is capable of quickly making more should they come into contact with the virus?

So you could have someone who is essentially “vaccinated” however an antibody test wouldn’t actually suggest that?

The longer post infection the greater the chance that antibodies will decline to the point where they aren't detectable. Hopefully (and likely) the memory cells will still be there to kick into action when needed. So an antibody test wouldn't catch everyone who had some immunity and we also don't really know if the aysmptomatic/low symptomatic cases produce as good an immune response as the vaccines will.

I think the main issue is that it might not be practical to test everyone for antibodies before they are vaccinated. We are struggling with the current logistics so I suspect an added test for 70 million people won't be possible. I could also see mass confusion resulting as people are tested, wait for results etc etc. Of course if there are serious supply issues then that might change.

 

[finneh]

The fear of covid isn't a tool to propagate totality ideas. It is just a silly thing to say.

I doubt 1 person is advocating a Wuhan style lockdown but a NZ or AU style response would have saved most of the 80,000 lives lost in the UK so far.

In truth I didn't mean specifically that the fear of Covid is being used to propagate totalitarianism; I meant that using fear as a tool was a far greater threat to Western society than vaccine deniers. I was thinking specifically anti-terrorism legislation (snoopers charter, extended rights to hold with charge etc), legislation compromising the right to protest (London police getting a ban on Extinction Rebellion from protesting and Cressida Dick stating more powers were needed to effectively deal with protesters) and anti-immigration legislation/rhetoric (hostile environment etc). However I think it would be naive to think that governments present and in the future aren't taking note of the extent to which the public will support draconian measures when a few "protect the NHS" slogans and the fear of God is put into them.

In terms of advocating a NZ/AU approach I think given the state of the UK by March (wholesale community transmission) and the inter-connected nature of the Country it's disingenuous to say that those measures would be effective. If they would be you'd have seen dozens of EU countries implementing them.

I can't see anything less than China type measures being able to achieve Covid zero in the UK. In truth they'd probably fail as well as public and media criticism would force a U turn quickly.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

I understand your reaction . When BFA Hernandez posted that I initially thought he must be a hypochondriac.

.....

Yo, what's this shit? I gave an honest opinion on what kind of reaction I experienced, while also offering a pre-warning that I tend to react terribly to vaccines (Flu, Hepatitis boosters, Yellow Fever vaccination) etc. Not sure why, but it happens.

Hypochondriac? Damn. Never been called that in my life.

 

[rcoobc]

Yo, what's this shit? I gave an honest opinion on what kind of reaction I experienced, while also offering a pre-warning that I tend to react terribly to vaccines (Flu, Hepatitis boosters, Yellow Fever vaccination) etc. Not sure why, but it happens.

Hypochondriac? Damn. Never been called that in my life.

I wasn't calling you one It's a long story.

I thought you might have been when you said "I've had COVID twice and vaccine is worse" but then I actually read your post and you obviously aren't.

 

[NinjaFletch]

He was on the news advocating for the 'dont use Pfizer vaccine properly' approach in the week before it. Not a surprise if it's true.

 

[mikey_d]

Had my vaccine 2nd of jan. spent most of the next day sleeping was very lethargic, arms and legs a bit achy but nothing dramatic. Out of 50+ Colleagues I’ve chatted to about it a good number had a similar experience (about 30%) some had headache and low grade fever( about another 10%). One person had a bit more of a severe reaction and was running very high temps - they had previously had a quite severe covid infection. Almost Everyone’s side effects only last about 24 hours once they started.
The vast majority had no problems other than some soreness at injection site which most people get with any vaccine.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Keep that genocidal cnut away from everything. Please.

Genocidal? I am no fan of Blair but what genocide was he involved in?

 

[Wibble]

In terms of advocating a NZ/AU approach I think given the state of the UK by March (wholesale community transmission) and the inter-connected nature of the Country it's disingenuous to say that those measures would be effective. If they would be you'd have seen dozens of EU countries implementing them.

It would have been harder but quite possible if the political will and competence was there. At the end of July Australia (mainly Victoria) and the UK both had just over 700 daily infections. Australia got that down to zero even though the outbreak started during winter and the UK went the other way due to doing almost nothing in summer and autumn and far too little/too late in winter.

I can't see anything less than China type measures being able to achieve Covid zero in the UK. In truth they'd probably fail as well as public and media criticism would force a U turn quickly.

The UK looks like a bit of a basket case from outside now so I can't see any chance of decisive proactive decision coming from this government. Their best hope is getting as many people as possible vaccinated during this belated and rather half arsed lockdown and hope the public forget the death toll come the next election.

I think their covid response isn't far off a Yes prime Minister script

Sir Richard Wharton: In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.

Sir Humphrey Appleton: Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.

Sir Richard Wharton: In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we *can* do.

Sir Humphrey Appleton: Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

 

[Wibble]

I wasn't calling you one It's a long story.

I thought you might have been when you said "I've had COVID twice and vaccine is worse" but then I actually read your post and you obviously aren't.

Enthusiastically immune?

I'd guess the good news for @Hernandez - BFA is that we could probably start farming him to make monoclonal antibody treatments

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

I wasn't calling you one It's a long story.

I thought you might have been when you said "I've had COVID twice and vaccine is worse" but then I actually read your post and you obviously aren't.

I know I know - my comment was very tongue in cheek. I didn't portray it the way I was aiming for.
No problemo.

 

[rcoobc]

Enthusiastically immune?

I'd guess the good news for @Hernandez - BFA is that we could probably start farming him to make monoclonal antibody treatments

The most immune member of the caf at any rate!

 

[Acole9]

Blair will be back as PM within months. Noel Gallagher will be deputy PM.

 

[Wibble]

Central Brisbane yesterday.

3 day lockdown while we contract trace all the contacts of the quarantine hotel worker who was infected with the new UK variant. 175 contacts have been traced and 112 tested negative so far with the rest waiting on results.

The NSW outbreak seems in its final stage with only 3 new cases - all close contacts of known infections.

3 day lockdown ends but masks and distancing still mandated. No transmissions from the 1 case of community transmission (quarantine hotel worker with the UK variant) and they have tranced the 370 people they had contact with while infectious - some tests still to come back but looking good so far.

NSW is down to a handful of daily infections with known sources so again fingers crossed NSW will be covid free again soon especially as the Northern beaches cluster that started it all has been stamped out most likely. The worrying thing is that we don't known how this cluster escaped from the quarantine hotel where is was genomically traced to.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Feck this piece of shit. Disgusting that he is trying to wingle his way into the ‘good books’ after what he did in Iraq.