SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

I work with a lot of data vis and I don't get the fundamentalism about it. Starting with 0 is the best default and a sensible choice for most scenarios but not all. In the first chart they started at 0 because 0 is a possible number in that data range, in the second it doesn't get close. The FT are a pretty strong voice in data journalism and this guy spends a lot of time thinking about the right way to show things. He didn't do it because he's trying to mislead people or because he's unaware of the downsides of it. Edward Tufte played a pivotal role in the development of data vis and his view directly opposes yours, mostly because of his fundamental belief in the importance of the data:ink ratio. Here's a more modern take with some examples. These aren't uninformed views.
Oh it absolutely is done to emphasize the spike.. This was posted on twitter.. I cant speak about the intent.. but it certainly ends up being misleading.

Of course there are cases where it doesnt need to be starting from 0. the link you posted mentions it being unnecessary when plotting temperature.. that makes total sense.. cases where small variances are significant. It also makes sense if its only for people familiar with reading charts ..

If it was 10000 going to 10500, and that 500 increase was significant, then starting at 0 would be unnecessary .. that is not the case . it started from 550 and went up to 1000.. there is no reason for it to not have started at 0.

The only reason it has been done that way is to trick the casual observer into thinking it has doubled whereas it has gone up by 33% .

anyway. the bit about hatred for anyone who doesnt start at 0 is way too broad.. I totally agree there are cases where it doesnt help.. but I also dont think this is one of those..

also, from the quartz article you linked
Of course column and bar charts should always have zeroed axes, since that is the only way for the visualization to accurately represent the data. Bar and column charts rely on bars that stretch to zero to accurately mirror the ratios between data points. Truncating the axis breaks the relationship between the size of the rectangle and the value of the data.
And while its not a bar chart, it is clearly plotting several lines and comparing them.. not having them start at 0 when it easily could have been is misleading.
 
Oh it absolutely is done to emphasize the spike.. This was posted on twitter.. I cant speak about the intent.. but it certainly ends up being misleading.

Of course there are cases where it doesnt need to be starting from 0. the link you posted mentions it being unnecessary when plotting temperature.. that makes total sense.. cases where small variances are significant. It also makes sense if its only for people familiar with reading charts ..

If it was 10000 going to 10500, and that 500 increase was significant, then starting at 0 would be unnecessary .. that is not the case . it started from 550 and went up to 1000.. there is no reason for it to not have started at 0.

The only reason it has been done that way is to trick the casual observer into thinking it has doubled whereas it has gone up by 33% .

anyway. the bit about hatred for anyone who doesnt start at 0 is way too broad.. I totally agree there are cases where it doesnt help.. but I also dont think this is one of those..

also, from the quartz article you linked

And while its not a bar chart, it is clearly plotting several lines and comparing them.. not having them start at 0 when it easily could have been is misleading.

The bar chart is the critical point of their point, though. There's basically univeral agreement in the data viz community that bar charts that don't start at 0 can only mislead. There is quite broad disagreement about whether line charts not starting at 0 should be considered informative or misleading, and broad disagreement about the context to apply those two assessments. I don't care enough to argue against your view, you're welcome to it, I'm just making the point that it has been debated in the academic literature and many arguments have been put forward for why it should not start at 0 that don't depend on a misinformed author, or a misled reader. If you can't acknowledge the significance of Edward Tufte's contribution to the craft, or you can't acknowledge the significance of his own view on this subject, then that's at least one of the reasons why you hate people making that decision. You haven't taken the time to consider the merit of it. It doesn't mean you would agree with them - many don't - but you wouldn't dismiss it so casually if you engaged with his view and the principles informing it.
 
And then they kept the infections low or at zero. As did many other countries. They didn't let it back up to a level were hospitals are close to having problems.

The goal and messaging in Europe has been that everything is just fine before hospitals are over-run.

The goal should have been to keep it at the level where test and trace works, or even lower.

You set up a wrong goal, you will fail even if you achieve that goal.

The virus is bad for the economy, restrictions are just a by-product of the virus. Keep it better under control and your economy and health does better.

An interesting angle...and a very fair point.
 
Am I the only one finding it harder this time?

I thought with football carrying on , support bubbles (I live alone) allowed and it (touch wood) being the last one I'd find it a lot easier this time but I don't.

If it weren't for the fact I'm one of the lucky one's to have a stable income through this and because of such have saved enough money to be able to make up for lost time (travelling, socialising etc) once this is done I dread to think where my state of mind would be at.
 
I know you like to rely on loose theories that can be moulded to fit any scenario, but we can add some actual substance to your theory and see some of the flaws which lead to some misleading conclusions.

Cases fell from 25k a day in early November to 14k at the beginning of December, which is when the first set of rules were relaxed. There were plenty of Christmas shoppers and after shops re-opened they had jumped on up to 37k just a couple of weeks later. According to Google's mobility data, you had almost as many people shopping in early December as you did in early September, when cases were 5x lower. By some measures, retail footfall was down just a few % YoY. Clearly cases being almost 3x higher before Christmas amplifies the impact of the Christmas spread, and clearly the two sets of approaches in November and December led to different epidemiological outcomes. To say they both aren't working, with no distinction, is to ignore that obvious fact.

On top of that, the rules that were outlined at the beginning of December said people from multiple households could mix for multiple days over Christmas, which many people made plans for and stuck to. Many people in this thread said they were going to do exactly that, and the ONS survey released today suggests they were among millions. They made the very adult decision to do what was best for themselves, they bought the turkey after all, what's a bit of covid compared to throwing away a good turkey? So the cases flowed from the Christmas period, not Christmas day.

If you look at the dates the tests were conducted (rather than reported), you see a simple pattern. There were around 40k cases a day in the three days before Christmas eve, and 45k cases in the three days after Christmas day. It was growing each week as a result of people doing normal things like shopping, but it wasn't blowing up. On the 29th it jumps up to 81k, and on the 30th it was 71k. 5-6 days after Christmas eve and it goes through the roof. The only other day to go above 70k in the entire pandemic was on the 4th Jan, following on from New Year's, and they haven't finished reporting cases from that day. The 5th Jan already has 50k cases reported, and it might well join those days in the top 4 peak.

Suddenly locking down when things go out of control doesn't lead to a sudden fall. The surge in cases that came directly from Christmas and NYE mean there's much more of the virus in the community, and it doesn't all spread just at once. People that have it now pass it to people in their household a few days later. People pick it up with almost no symptoms, do shopping for the next week and pass it onto nobody, and then just one person gets it and they start another chain. Australia have had cases at almost 0 for months, but those small chains keep forming week after week, even when it's few people passing it on. Which is why when they had to lock things down in Melbourne, it eventually brought things under control but there was no plumetting.

So no, cases wouldn't drop like a stone imminently if the primary driver of this surge was Christmas and NYE. It just means the peak will be much higher, community transmission will remain much longer, and the health system might reach a breaking point it otherwise wouldn't if we continue to make these adult decisions. Likewise, the fact that lockdown isn't leading to plummeting cases isn't evidence that it doesn't work, because we know how it worked last time. We went from 500 cases to 5,000 cases in 3 weeks between March and April, and we went from 5,000 cases to 500 cases in the 3 months between April and July. The higher that peak, the longer it takes to come down. People don't get to have a couple of days where things are let loose, and then they can have a couple of days of living in isolation to make up for it. That isn't how community transmission works. That's the point. We assess that risk poorly as individuals.

Now that I've answered your question, can you answer the original question with a direct answer?
Terrific read and well detailed. Explains much and goes to show to media are just reporting out their arse on what they know.

Why arn't you giving the updates on BBC?:smirk:
 
I 100% feel for you, because unfortunately it's the kind of attitude that's holding us back. Attitudes like this can negate the correct attitude and behaviours of dozens/hundreds of people, simply because one person doesn't believe it.

I will never forget a ~30 year old son who I had to ring to tell him that his mother was unfortunately dying from COVID and whether he would like to come in to see her in an isolated cubicle for her final moments. I remember throughout her whole admission she was saying she was the only person in her whole family that believed in the COVID fears - and the rest of the family didn't follow any of the rules, despite her constant wishes. Who was the one who required hospitalization and eventually died to it? Her obviously.

The phone call itself was fairly uneventful, I explained what was going on and asked him to come in if he wished. When he came in he looked confused, as if he misunderstood over the phone. An hour later, he left the cubicle after his mother passed and he was completely different. I genuinely can still picture him saying "I don't understand - I thought this was all fake" before bursting down into tears.

It's terrible for me to say - but sometimes, the only thing that will make someone listen is when they experience the pain close-to-home.

I thought this but I dont know after spending a month in the UK over Christmas. Here in Italy everybody, and I mean everybody, knows somebody who died. Often somebody close. Just before Christmas a colleague lost a grandparent and an Uncle in three days. Consequently people at least around here are wary of the virus even after almost 11 months of it.

But when I speak to friends and family in the UK nobody knows any horror stories. All I hear is a friend or neighbour or postman had it and it was just like the flu. Its strange because it's the worst in Europe in nearly every way.
 
Its the transparency of the whole saga which has been most worrying for me. People with legitimate concerns over the the flaws in the PCR test, the constant lockdowns or the efficacy of the vaccine seemed to be have been grouped into the "Covidiots" total hoax/anti vax group without a fair hearing. The government response to the crisis has been shameful and their lack of communication to people with valid questions is pathetic. The media doesn't seem to be much better with a constant focus on creating the "scariest/most fear mongering" headline they can devise.
 
Its the transparency of the whole saga which has been most worrying for me. People with legitimate concerns over the the flaws in the PCR test, the constant lockdowns or the efficacy of the vaccine seemed to be have been grouped into the "Covidiots" total hoax/anti vax group without a fair hearing. The government response to the crisis has been shameful and their lack of communication to people with valid questions is pathetic. The media doesn't seem to be much better with a constant focus on creating the "scariest/most fear mongering" headline they can devise.
Those who right against the zeitgeist get lumped together.
 
Its the transparency of the whole saga which has been most worrying for me. People with legitimate concerns over the the flaws in the PCR test, the constant lockdowns or the efficacy of the vaccine seemed to be have been grouped into the "Covidiots" total hoax/anti vax group without a fair hearing. The government response to the crisis has been shameful and their lack of communication to people with valid questions is pathetic. The media doesn't seem to be much better with a constant focus on creating the "scariest/most fear mongering" headline they can devise.

What exactly would you say your concerns are?
 
What exactly would you say your concerns are?

1. The lack of clarity over the operational false positive of the PCR tests. The government doesn't seem to have released this data. I want to know whether the test is fit for purpose.

2. Concerning vaccines, the media went into a frenzy over "95%" efficacy rates. However, the lack of raw data from the vaccine companies is very worrying and the fact it won't be released anytime soon.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...ccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/
 
1. The lack of clarity over the operational false positive of the PCR tests. The government doesn't seem to have released this data. I want to know whether the test is fit for purpose.

2. Concerning vaccines, the media went into a frenzy over "95%" efficacy rates. However, the lack of raw data from the vaccine companies is very worrying and the fact it won't be released anytime soon.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...ccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

And what about lockdowns?
 
1. The lack of clarity over the operational false positive of the PCR tests. The government doesn't seem to have released this data. I want to know whether the test is fit for purpose.

2. Concerning vaccines, the media went into a frenzy over "95%" efficacy rates. However, the lack of raw data from the vaccine companies is very worrying and the fact it won't be released anytime soon.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...ccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/
False positives happen at a rate less than 1/1.000.
 
And what about lockdowns?

3. Mainly surrounding government decisions around Lockdown. Why were the airports still open in the middle of a lockdown? Why did the government not invest more into staff/beds in the summer rather than ploughing on with the vanity Nightingale project? I would like to see a cost/benefit analysis for the decisions they made. I don't think this is too much to ask for.
 
3. Mainly surrounding government decisions around Lockdown. Why were the airports still open in the middle of a lockdown? Why did the government not invest more into staff/beds in the summer rather than ploughing on with the vanity Nightingale project? I would like to see a cost/benefit analysis for the decisions they made. I don't think this is too much to ask for.

Think you'll struggle to find any on here that disagrees with that to be honest. Government have been fecking hopeless.
 
The media doesn't seem to be much better with a constant focus on creating the "scariest/most fear mongering" headline they can devise.

Not seen a constant focus on that. If anything the UK situation seems to be played down, key stages not mentioned and reporting other countries doing bad. It's mostly political points and snark and hearing how such and such a business or group need the government to reduce restrictions.

We should probably see more about the hospitals and people's health badly affected as most don't seem to think this is real or it's a type of cold or flu.
 
Yeah I don’t think there has been much fearmongering. People seem to think that actually reporting news and estimates is fearmongering when it’s actually... news.
 
Yeah I don’t think there has been much fearmongering. People seem to think that actually reporting news and estimates is fearmongering when it’s actually... news.
Things can be serious and people (like Piers Morgan) can still be shamelessly fear mongering, the two ain't mutually exclusive.

For example that women that went on the radio and falsely claimed/implied children were starting to be admitted to hospital in serious numbers, if the president of the royal college of paediatrics and child health didn't quickly rebuff that they'd be parents in their thousands if not millions right now panicking on the strength of misinformation.
 
1. The lack of clarity over the operational false positive of the PCR tests. The government doesn't seem to have released this data. I want to know whether the test is fit for purpose.

2. Concerning vaccines, the media went into a frenzy over "95%" efficacy rates. However, the lack of raw data from the vaccine companies is very worrying and the fact it won't be released anytime soon.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...ccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

1. What’s the concern about false positives?Who gives a shit? Seriously. Conspiracy muppets have been banging this drum for ages. Trying to pretend this epidemic isn’t as serious as it seems. Now we have hospitals literally on their knees and it still worries you that some people might have been inconvenienced by being asked to restrict their movements when it might not have been necessary. That’s what worries you?!

2. Pharma companies will post all the clinical study reports online. They’ve been doing it for the last several years. All the data has been submitted to the regulators already though. So what’s your concern here?
 
1. The lack of clarity over the operational false positive of the PCR tests. The government doesn't seem to have released this data. I want to know whether the test is fit for purpose.

2. Concerning vaccines, the media went into a frenzy over "95%" efficacy rates. However, the lack of raw data from the vaccine companies is very worrying and the fact it won't be released anytime soon.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...ccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

So with regards to the first point, do you feel that people are being misdiagnosed with Covid when they have another serious respiratory illness? Or that they don't have any serious illness at all?
 
Things can be serious and people (like Piers Morgan) can still be shamelessly fear mongering, the two ain't mutually exclusive.

For example that women that went on the radio and falsely claimed/implied children were starting to be admitted to hospital in serious numbers, if the president of the royal college of paediatrics and child health didn't quickly rebuff that they'd be parents in their thousands if not millions right now panicking on the strength of misinformation.
So the example of the media over emphasising things at the moment consists of a woman on a radio phone in?
 
I'd expect the usual anti royal stuff to follow, but this is good for them, and if it sways just a few more of espcially the older generation to have then even better.

Would be weird in fairness if there anti-royal stuff following this. Not like its William who's received it, they'd both be right in line to receive the vaccine now even if they were totally normal citizens.
 
So the example of the media over emphasising things at the moment consists of a woman on a radio phone in?
It was an example off the top of my head, I've also used an example of a presenter who's been systematically scaremongering the nation for the best part of a year.

But if we're going to bring the media into it, at the start of the pandemic they use to take advantage of lag delays, again to pluck one example after the May bank holiday they went with a deaths SOAR headline knowing full well many won't be clued on to realise it's a reporting lag.
 
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1. What’s the concern about false positives?Who gives a shit? Seriously. Conspiracy muppets have been banging this drum for ages. Trying to pretend this epidemic isn’t as serious as it seems. Now we have hospitals literally on their knees and it still worries you that some people might have been inconvenienced by being asked to restrict their movements when it might not have been necessary. That’s what worries you?!

2. Pharma companies will post all the clinical study reports online. They’ve been doing it for the last several years. All the data has been submitted to the regulators already though. So what’s your concern here?

1. From what I have read. It worries me that that the whole government covid strategy for the past year has been based off this PCR test when the test itself is ran to such a high cycle threshold that it can detect dead fragments of the virus. Thus, we don't know the true case numbers. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Of course the situation is now very serious with hospitals, I'm not denying that. I'm questioning the lack of transparency shown by this government. To put it bluntly I don't trust them.

2. The concern over the vaccine is how effective it will be. The linked article raises concerns over this. I don't believe there is any harm in being skeptical over a newly produced vaccine.
 
So with regards to the first point, do you feel that people are being misdiagnosed with Covid when they have another serious respiratory illness? Or that they don't have any serious illness at all?

From what I have read, the PCR test can still detect fragments of the dead virus. Surely, if you mass test certain parts of the population, you will find healthy people in this situation?

Again, I'm happy to be corrected.
 
Things can be serious and people (like Piers Morgan) can still be shamelessly fear mongering, the two ain't mutually exclusive.

For example that women that went on the radio and falsely claimed/implied children were starting to be admitted to hospital in serious numbers, if the president of the royal college of paediatrics and child health didn't quickly rebuff that they'd be parents in their thousands if not millions right now panicking on the strength of misinformation.

Remember "kawasaki disease"? The BBC loved that for about a fortnight.
 
If anything people aren't scared enough. There's so little respect or worry, more annoyance that we're in the situation.

Agreed. I think a big failure has been the messaging from a public health point of view, the masses became massively tired of the situation by around June/July.

I dont know what would have kept everyone in isolation more but I think the government was totally unrealistic about what the people would do rather than being realistic. Felt a little like teaching teenagers abstinence rather than safe sex.

The messaging was just stay home stay safe, rather than maybe something like get tested often and only once you know you're negative meet up with friends outside or something.

But again that requires massive testing and people doing it.
 
From what I have read, the PCR test can still detect fragments of the dead virus. Surely, if you mass test certain parts of the population, you will find healthy people in this situation?

Again, I'm happy to be corrected.
People can test positive after they stop being infectious (not spreading live virus any more) if that's what you mean. That can go on for a week or two, or even longer in some individuals.

But as the usual reason for being tested is that you've got symptoms, that's unlikely to apply to many test results - and they aren't actually false positives. Where people get tested every week (like some hospital staff) then they'll know what's happening, and the quarantine rules are set accordingly.
 
It's a perfectly sensible thing to do if 0 is not relevant in the data range.
It is when its comparing 2 sets of data. that graph is intended to highlight how much worse it is compared to previous years and not having it start at zero clearly skews the perspective.
 
Why did the government not invest more into staff/beds in the summer rather than ploughing on with the vanity Nightingale project?

It isn't as easy as turning on a tap and finding skilled ICU nurses. Staffing levels have been ignored consistently by the government over the past decade, you need to go back as far as 4-5 years ago to have an impact on staffing levels today.
 
The question was whether you believe that people being afforded more freedom in the build-up to and during Christmas was a major contributor to this spread, and whether that tells you anything about individuals' ability to make these risk assessments?

I still don't really know what freedoms people were "given" in the run up to Christmas (apart from two thirds of the country on Christmas day, by which point we were already up a creek without a paddle). Restrictions have been getting continuously more onerous since the November lockdown ended. Over that period and despite progressively strong measures, cases have only increased.

I'd imagine that despite pretty much the whole country being in lockdown for the last fortnight, cases will continue to be hugely problematic over the next 4-5 weeks until the vaccine protects the vulnerable. The new strain combined with the time of year makes that an unfortunate inevitability. Combine that with the fact that the biggest tool we had in the Armoury in March (fear) has been tapped dry meaning it'll tragically be a tough Winter. All we can hope is the vaccination program accelerates quickly.