SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Changing inter-dose lengths is hypothetical bad science, I feel mixing different vaccines is more concretely bad science.

Even if the Pfizer mRNA codes for the spke protein, and the Oxford contains the spike protein, do they both include the full-length protein, or different parts of it? I read Pfizer had to make modifications to the sequence to make the protein properly foldable after it is expressed in the cell. Similar modifications for Oxford or not?
So, will the antibodies made in response to both be the same? If not, is there any long-term benefit to a second dose?

I'm a microbiologist and the biggest thing I've worked with is a yeast cell, I know nothing special about vaccines or the human immune system. I knew no advanced biology at all till about 2014. Usually I'd assume that senior doctors and scientists in charge of these decisions would have answered these basic doubts, and many more I can't think of. Don't want to be a Dunning-Kruger case.
But the fact that they have just slipped in this line into a book, and no other countries agree with them (reminiscent of Sweden's public health experts), makes me doubt them.
 
Yeah. And early December and late December are very different. Do you think people have the same desire to get tested if unwell around Christmas and New Years as they do at the start of the month?

Like I said, it shows a trend perhaps at a high level. Nothing else. So excuse your sarcasm.
Why compare anything to anything then?

Sorry but your initial point isnt valid because you were talking about something that was the case in march (testing at hospital's only). Since then, testing has been much more widespread and broadly consistent.

Do you think people have the same desire to get tested if unwell around Christmas and New Years as they do at the start of the month?
Yes? Close enough
 
But the fact that they have just slipped in this line into a book, and no other countries agree with them (reminiscent of Sweden's public health experts), makes me doubt them.

For the record, the JCVI have been discussing using one dosage as far back as July last year. It's not new news, nor something that's been conjured as an idea at the last minute. It appears this approach is more a contingency approach, and they've hit a wall where they need contingent measures.
 
Changing inter-dose lengths is hypothetical bad science, I feel mixing different vaccines is more concretely bad science.

Even if the Pfizer mRNA codes for the spke protein, and the Oxford contains the spike protein, do they both include the full-length protein, or different parts of it? I read Pfizer had to make modifications to the sequence to make the protein properly foldable after it is expressed in the cell. Similar modifications for Oxford or not?
So, will the antibodies made in response to both be the same? If not, is there any long-term benefit to a second dose?

I'm a microbiologist and the biggest thing I've worked with is a yeast cell, I know nothing special about vaccines or the human immune system. I knew no advanced biology at all till about 2014. Usually I'd assume that senior doctors and scientists in charge of these decisions would have answered these basic doubts, and many more I can't think of. Don't want to be a Dunning-Kruger case.
But the fact that they have just slipped in this line into a book, and no other countries agree with them (reminiscent of Sweden's public health experts), makes me doubt them.
They've come out and said they don't be mixing vaccines though.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/covid-vaccine-uk-mixing-b1781707.html
 
Changing inter-dose lengths is hypothetical bad science, I feel mixing different vaccines is more concretely bad science.

Even if the Pfizer mRNA codes for the spke protein, and the Oxford contains the spike protein, do they both include the full-length protein, or different parts of it? I read Pfizer had to make modifications to the sequence to make the protein properly foldable after it is expressed in the cell. Similar modifications for Oxford or not?
So, will the antibodies made in response to both be the same? If not, is there any long-term benefit to a second dose?

I'm a microbiologist and the biggest thing I've worked with is a yeast cell, I know nothing special about vaccines or the human immune system. I knew no advanced biology at all till about 2014. Usually I'd assume that senior doctors and scientists in charge of these decisions would have answered these basic doubts, and many more I can't think of. Don't want to be a Dunning-Kruger case.
But the fact that they have just slipped in this line into a book, and no other countries agree with them (reminiscent of Sweden's public health experts), makes me doubt them.

The only vaccine mix that makes sense to me is a boost with Sputnik, which is whole dead virus (or maybe that’s the Chinese vaccine?). I think they’ve already started trials with that combination.
 
The only vaccine mix that makes sense to me is a boost with Sputnik, which is whole dead virus (or maybe that’s the Chinese vaccine?). I think they’ve already started trials with that combination.

From the article @rcoobc just posted

PHE’s coronavirus green book adds that the option of a different second dose is only preferred “if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again”. Both the Pfizer/BioNTech and Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine are based on the spike protein, it says, making it likely that the second dose will help to boost the response to the first.
!!

And from the actual Green Book
SJXQarn.png


"preferably using the same vaccine" isn't very strong language.

And then

QJKbOqL.png


This is where the denials are coming from. Fair enough (with all the caveats about the possible spke protein differences). However, it absolutely doesn't explain the cavalier phrasing of the previous screenshot, which doesn't appear to be specific to these situations.
 
The only vaccine mix that makes sense to me is a boost with Sputnik, which is whole dead virus (or maybe that’s the Chinese vaccine?). I think they’ve already started trials with that combination.
Sigue sigue Sputnik - the Spanish booster jab.

Sorry.
 
Our older one's primary school has only just sent out communication stating which years should attend the school. The whole school thing is a total joke to be honest and it's clear that our local school doesn't really want to open. It will be interesting to see what the attendance is like tomorrow and which rule changes are going to come about as I don't think the situation can continue like this for much longer.
 
Our older one's primary school has only just sent out communication stating which years should attend the school. The whole school thing is a total joke to be honest and it's clear that our local school doesn't really want to open. It will be interesting to see what the attendance is like tomorrow and which rule changes are going to come about as I don't think the situation can continue like this for much longer.
How was your school for providing work during lockdown in march?

Ours was poo. And our whole school is shut again but they aren't even doing work tomorrow it's starting Tuesday...

Idiots!!!
 
I can see the cynicism, but I believe the move on dosage from the JCVI (not the government remember) is to reduce the strain on hospitals which they are seeing currently with the new variant. Vaccinating more quicker with one dose, will reduce the chances of hospitalisation, or at the very least intensive care requirement, and in turn ease the burden the south are currently seeing on ICU.

Thanks F-Red I've had a read of the recent JCVI statement and it clarifies the position regarding this option, based on the rising number of cases, hospitalisations and the new variant. It's an option and it's a good thing to have options. One unknown factor is the vaccines efficacy being compromised by the new variant. I understand It'll be a couple of weeks before we have a clear picture on that aspect. One thing's clear, time is not on our side and its a difficult balancing act. We also have to add into the equation a government who have a record of cherry picking scientific advice and in some cases disregarding it all together.
 
How was your school for providing work during lockdown in march?

Ours was poo. And our whole school is shut again but they aren't even doing work tomorrow it's starting Tuesday...

Idiots!!!
It wasn't great. They left a lot of things up to us to do and communication from the school was quite poor. The school sound like they are not bothered if some pupils don't go in. Our boy will be off tomorrow as we assess how things are panning out.
 
I honestly don’t think the government could have handled this situation any worse than they have from the very start. Absolute shambles.
 
Just found out my partner did a c-section on a patient who later tested positive for covid. She had to self isolate and whilst I don’t, I have no idea how to act in the house. Do I just stay away from her, sleep in different rooms etc?

10-15 staff members taken out in one go apparently

I'm not sure if your'e located in the U.K but this gives guidance. Sorry to hear about your partner.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...preading-coronavirus-to-people-you-live-with/
 

I do believe that the Christmas gathering have had a massive effect on the new case load and considering this new variant the fact that people were legally able to gather was a massive clusterfeck by the government. They should have cancelled Christmas nation wide but after calling Starmer the Grinch BJ had backed himself into a corner where he wasn't willing to look foolish.

People are dying because of BJ's machoism.
 
Boris is just wasting valuable time by not enforcing a lockdown now. Absolute cnut.

Watching the broadcast of the cricket in New Zealand & it’s like they’re living in an alternate reality. Stadium full, no masks, no social distancing... enjoying life & they’ll get their population vaccinated. I wish we had that leadership here.
 
This somewhat sums up the problem with how things are currently being managed. Despite tiers 3 and 4, we’re still not even close to what a full lockdown was like in April.



It is that and general complacency. Must admit I hate leaving the house now. Complacency is everywhere. Supermarkets letting a lot of people in and a good 40% of people aren’t even wearing a mask covering their nose. Delivery drivers all happy to hand parcels over and stand at door again. Basic messaging has been lost.

If people in the UK think we’re already being tough in our approach to the virus, we all need a rethink.
 
Boris is just wasting valuable time by not enforcing a lockdown now. Absolute cnut.

Watching the broadcast of the cricket in New Zealand & it’s like they’re living in an alternate reality. Stadium full, no masks, no social distancing... enjoying life & they’ll get their population vaccinated. I wish we had that leadership here.
It's looking at what should have been. Fair play to the Kiwis but we should have been more decisive.
 
This somewhat sums up the problem with how things are currently being managed. Despite tiers 3 and 4, we’re still not even close to what a full lockdown was like in April.



It is that and general complacency. Must admit I hate leaving the house now. Complacency is everywhere. Supermarkets letting a lot of people in and a good 40% of people aren’t even wearing a mask covering their nose. Delivery drivers all happy to hand parcels over and stand at door again. Basic messaging has been lost.

If people in the UK think we’re already being tough in our approach to the virus, we all need a rethink.


It's pretty clear just taking a standard walk how the mood has shifted. During the first lockdown the roads were practically dead, right now there's a steady stream of traffic where I live and it's been that way for a while. The sense of fear that was palpable in April does not exist anymore, I think people see other people flouting rules and feel emboldened to do so themselves. We appear to be in a worse situation than we did in April and I think the Government should be conveying that better, the difference now is we have vaccines being rolled out. Surely it cannot be hard to sell people on being super responsible for 2 more months or whatever after everything we've been through?
 
Surely it cannot be hard to sell people on being super responsible for 2 more months or whatever after everything we've been through?
It would be very easy to sell this if the government didn't contradict itself at every moment. There should be a March-style lockdown with only the most essential services still operating. Anything short of that is on the government.
 
Our older one's primary school has only just sent out communication stating which years should attend the school. The whole school thing is a total joke to be honest and it's clear that our local school doesn't really want to open. It will be interesting to see what the attendance is like tomorrow and which rule changes are going to come about as I don't think the situation can continue like this for much longer.
How was your school for providing work during lockdown in march?

Ours was poo. And our whole school is shut again but they aren't even doing work tomorrow it's starting Tuesday...

Idiots!!!

The government has thrown the entire teaching profession under the bus. I’ve witnessed concern, anger and anxiety across entire organisations today as individual teachers, TAs, cleaners, admin and caterers have been forced into making an individual choice that was completely and utterly avoidable. Many of us have been told to inform leadership of our intention to enact Section 44 of the health and safety regulations. Even then, guidance differs from union to union.

The school you mention has (likely) only issued communication to parents now because it has been forced into a position in which it can no longer safely care for your child due to staff absence.

I’m attending work tomorrow and feel dejected and ashamed. I am not vulnerable and neither is my household. But I’m either letting down my colleagues who are in difficult situations, or I’m letting down the pupils and parents of those who wish their child to attend. Our school has already issued the decision to remain open to parents and that has come in for criticism. The decision to close the school would come in for criticism, too.

The government has completely failed in their ability to govern on schools and the pupils, parents and staff are paying the price (both physically and mentally). I don’t know how these bastards sleep at night. If you need to project your anger anywhere, please direct it towards said bastards.

On a side note, home learning provision in primary schools should have significantly improved by now. You may find that it improves this time around, as further closures are clearly in the pipeline.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with it if the said they were prioritising Primary schools because online learning is too limited for the younger ones. I'm more dubious about them allowing Secondary to continue - especially fulltime on-site - the autumn term contained a massive missed opportunity to improve online resources and complete the roll out of laptops/data hotspots where needed. That makes me suspect they hadn't even thought about it, crossing their fingers and hoping for the best isn't the same as prioritising it.

The continuing hesitation over advice to Universities and Colleges is even worse as it has less actual educational necessity behind it, and a lot of extra potential for spreading problems around the country.

Then finally we get the question of, "so what do we sacrifice to keep the schools open?" and we get the easy bits, the pubs, the restaurants, the gyms, the non-essential shops. But take a look at Tier4 rules - those aren't the March/April lockdown rules. Places of worship stay open, so do face to face support groups, and there are a whole bunch of other things there that we realised were essential whether for mental health reasons or sheer practicality - like house moves etc, that are listed there. The default "stay home" now only really applies to certain aspects of certain people's social lives and some businesses - who can't workaround the rules.

So basically I hear the "we've prioritised schools" - but I don't see the evidence that we've done enough elsewhere to match how we acted in March/April (against a less transmissible strain) let alone match that improvement and keep schools open. Especially not now as we head into winter, and we don't have the immense advantage that the "chance to say hello and hand the shopping over in the front garden" spring weather gave us.

Incidentally Manchester's numbers suggest that the new strain accounted for 25% of cases before Christmas. The regions are porous and the mutation is in community transmission across a lot of the country.

Really I don't know enough about the school system to know what they are / aren't capable of, but from the one friend I have that teaches secondary school in Dagenham, there was no hope they would have the resources for kids to be taught online, nor any belief that the majority of the kids would have the appetite to learn remotely if resources were available.

It doesn't seem that implausible to me that they looked at the options in the summer and came to the realisation that all the issues raised about the public education system for years before covid were very real, and very limiting. So rather than crossing their fingers and hoping for the best, they realised they were stuck between a rock and a hard place: no real education, or no possibility to crush the curve with schools open. And there was no shortage of evidence on the huge risks to children's development without proper education for a long time.

Boris' interview today suggested to me that they had no intention to match the results of March, which probably explains all the rest. We committed to suppression then, now we're in mitigation with a high tolerance for community transmission and a willingness to let hospitals reach their absolute capacities. Which is what Boris wanted to do at the beginning of March before the mad scramble, which mostly followed from some worst-case scenarios in the modelling that were a lot worse than we now believe possible.

Closing schools and the other essential services were only tolerable as a temporary choice when we had no testing capacity, had a lot of flimsy models of virus transmission and we didn't know the effects of public health measures or the degree of compliance that would follow. Now we have clearer ideas on that we don't need to take such severe measures, because we don't think proactively crushing the curve for a limited period of time is a worthwhile sacrifice for the economic and social damage that comes with it. This was the most honest thing he's said in a while (at 51 mins):

Boris Johnson said:
What is absolutely clear is that of course, from March onwards, you could have closed down all transmission, the government could have pastoralised the UK economy. By the way there are people who advocate that, there are scientists that think that would have been the sensible solution. However, the damage to people's mental health, the damage to the long-term prospects of young people growing up in this country, the exacerbation of the gap between rich and poor, that would have been colossal.

It was the job of government to manage a very, very difficult situation which is being faced by every liberal democracy in Western Europe. And when you talk about we should have locked down in September or done things differently, plenty of people have tried to do things differently. They had a lockdown in Wales in September, they locked down tightly, they took the breaks off and then things immediately surged again.
...
If you want to stop coronavirus spreading, then of course it's open to you or any government to close down the entire economy for the duration. If you look at all these examples of firebreakers or circuit breakers, all they do is buy you some temporary respite. What we're doing now is using the tiering system, which is a very tough system, and alas probably about to get tougher, to keep things under control.

So I agree with you that we haven't done enough to match what happened in March, but I don't think that was because they hadn't thought about it and just hoped for the best. They just accepted worse public health outcomes than you (or presumably anyone in the NHS, along with huge swathes of society) would have accepted. But then he pays attention to what folks in The Telegraph and the like say. They think he's still doing too much harm to the economy by taking these public health measures.

We definitely know that the worse strain was in most parts of the country pre-Christmas, we know a lot more of it was spread around the country from people jumping on trains from St Pancras to Leeds and the like, and we have every reason to expect the spread accelerated around various communities during Christmas mingling. So I'm not saying the issue is exclusively limited to London or that we should expect it to remain that way. It's just that the government currently hopes it hasn't spread as badly as many fear, and that extreme containment measures in the South East can hold it back somewhat while Tier 4 measures in other areas cut the chains of transmission early enough that things won't get out of control there too.

If that isn't the case, they'll have another haphazard national lockdown because their current mitigation plan goes out the window in that scenario. They're just desperately clinging to the belief that this worst-case scenario hasn't materialised, and they can hobble by until mass vaccination starts having an effect. They will only accept that worst-case scenario once the data confirms it, which inevitably comes with a time lag. We don't really know what proportion of new cases are the new strain in e.g. Newcastle right now, and won't for a little while. I wouldn't take the same position but I can understand the motivation behind it.
 
My uncle who is a doctor in the UK just tested positive after being vaccinated one week ago. Major bad luck with the timing.