Saido Berahino

[Cassidy]

Signing these type of players is exactly the reason why we have a squad full of average players now.

The people saying we must sign him now will probably open threads in a couple of years time and complain how top clubs signed top talents like Dybala and Vietto and we signed Saido fecking Berahino.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment there, I think its hard to judge Berahino vs those two because he is playing for West Brom, on top of that he been moved around a bit in that team too. Also those two players carry risk of having to adjust to the EPL.

We also signed Dwight Yorke, and Louis Saha in similar fashion.

Out of them 3 I would take Vietto, but in honesty I would like us to sign two out of the following 4:

Lacazette, Dybala, Vietto, Berahino

To replace RVP & Falcao

 

[Barney]

Signing these type of players is exactly the reason why we have a squad full of average players now.

Really? Surely it's more to do with buying the big names and having them not work out?

 

[Player Red]

Scoring in the Premier League is no mean feat. You don't often get flash in the pan players who score 15 plus in a season. A good policy would be one of Kane, Berahino etc in addition to one of the young talents in other leagues.

I would personally spunk it all on Lewandowski!

 

[Devil may care]

You can judge the individual talents of the players despite what team they play in, you can see the qualities they posses, and in Dybala's case Palermo aren't much better than West Brom in fairness.

 

[Barney]

Scoring in the Premier League is no mean feat. You don't often get flash in the pan players who score 15 plus in a season. A good policy would be one of Kane, Berahino etc in addition to one of the young talents in other leagues.

I would personally spunk it all on Lewandowski!

Would it? I think all that would accomplish is ensuring that you have too many strikers in the squad to play Van Gaal's 433.

 

[Devil may care]

Really? Surely it's more to do with buying the big names and having them not work out?

Not really, we have bought two big names in the last 5 years that have so far failed and one that was the main reason Fergie won his final PL title. Are you really saying we are better off with Young than we would have been paying Hazard's agent £6M to ensure we got him? It's not as simple as big name vs prospect, it's about buying the wrong players no matter the fee that has hurt us.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Scoring in the Premier League is no mean feat. You don't often get flash in the pan players who score 15 plus in a season. A good policy would be one of Kane, Berahino etc in addition to one of the young talents in other leagues.

Maybe not flash in the pan players, but many average players who have had no business playing for a team like United have scored 15+ in a PL season. The likes of Darren Bent and James Beattie spring to mind.

 

[Revan]

Signing these type of players is exactly the reason why we have a squad full of average players now.

The people saying we must sign him now will probably open threads in a couple of years time and complain how top clubs signed top talents like Dybala and Vietto and we signed Saido fecking Berahino.

Exactly! It is Young over Silva/Mata all over again.

Personally, the only players in EPL (which we can probably sign) that I would like to sign are Kane and possibly Stones (if he keeps the level for another season ir two)

 

[Varun]

Really? Surely it's more to do with buying the big names and having them not work out?

Big name signings is a recent trend here. Earlier it was all about buying squad players, something Sir Alex was rightly criticized for. He let his brilliance make the difference and signed average players. Now that's he gone, we're in shit.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Exactly! It is Young over Silva/Mata all over again.

Personally, the only players in EPL (which we can probably sign) that I would like to sign are Kane and possibly Stones (if he keeps the level for another season ir two)

Agreed. Berahino may become a great player, but I wouldn't buy him based on his performances this season alone. Why not wait and see what happens next year? Only way I'd be OK with us getting him is if we also signed another striker or goal-scoring winger (Lacazette/Depay). Berahino alone? No thanks.

 

[An Irish Red]

If we're playing one striker (which we should be) then, even if we don't get Falcao, we'll still have Rooney, Van Persie and Wilson. More than enough.

We really don't need another striker in my opinion. It would cause more problems than it would solve.

 

[Cassidy]

If we're playing one striker (which we should be) then, even if we don't get Falcao, we'll still have Rooney, Van Persie and Wilson. More than enough.

We really don't need another striker in my opinion. It would cause more problems than it would solve.

RVP should be moved on, and Wilson should probably go out on loan tbh

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

If we're playing one striker (which we should be) then, even if we don't get Falcao, we'll still have Rooney, Van Persie and Wilson. More than enough.

We really don't need another striker in my opinion. It would cause more problems than it would solve.

RvP looks crocked, Wilson hasn't really done anything to suggest he's ready to play for us regularly.

We definitely need another striker.

 

[An Irish Red]

RVP should be moved on, and Wilson should probably go out on loan tbh

I don't think he will be though. I'd have Wilson here as third choice as well, probably better for him in the long run.

If we're worried about numbers up top we'd be better getting a winger/wide forward (like Depay) who could play there in times of crisis than bringing in more strikers (imo).

 

[Cassidy]

I don't think he will be though. I'd have Wilson here as third choice as well, probably better for him in the long run.

If we're worried about numbers up top we'd be better getting a winger/wide forward (like Depay) who could play there in times of crisis than bringing in more strikers (imo).

We have 4 here, none of them have scored more than 20 league goals in the past 2 seasons. Not good enough.
Rooney can stay, Wilson can stay as 4th choice but not 3rd IMO. Wilson also needs to be playing games to develop, staying here this season hasn't helped him tbh

 

[An Irish Red]

We definitely need another striker.

Rooney can stay, Wilson can stay as 4th choice but not 3rd IMO. Wilson also needs to be playing games to develop, staying here this season hasn't helped him tbh

If we bring in more strikers we basically would have to play two up front though, which isn't good. It's not balanced at all. Especially not with our array of attacking midfielders as well.

 

[Cassidy]

If we bring in more strikers we basically would have to play two up front though, which isn't good. It's not balanced at all. Especially not with our array of attacking midfielders as well.

No we don't. Falcao won't be here, RVP should be moved on and or Wilson should be sent on loan (or stay as fourth choice)

 

[An Irish Red]

No we don't. Falcao won't be here, RVP should be moved on and or Wilson should be sent on loan (or stay as fourth choice)

So we sign two strikers as well as the three or four other players we need and overhaul the squad, causing us to be disjointed and out of sync and leaving us unsuited to playing one striker?

I just don't see it. I really think we'd be better off with Rooney up top and two wingers. Van Persie and Wilson as back-up would be enough, especially if one of the wingers could play there as well.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

So we sign two strikers as well as the three or four other players we need and overhaul the squad, causing us to be disjointed and out of sync and leaving us unsuited to playing one striker?

I just don't see it. I really think we'd be better off with Rooney up top and two wingers. Van Persie and Wilson as back-up would be enough, especially if one of the wingers could play there as well.

Sign one striker. That leaves us with Rooney, RVP, New Striker and Wilson. That will be fine. If Rooney gets injured and RVP is unavailable, not sure how confident I'd be in playing Wilson.

Even in a one striker system we'd still need another striker. We only have two*, one of whom is nearing retirement. Lacazette and Depay combined would only cost about 50m, leaves 100m (if reports are accurate) to be spent on the midfield and defence.

*(Obviously Falcao won't be here next season, Wilson not ready).

 

[Cassidy]

Sign one striker. That leaves us with Rooney, RVP, New Striker and Wilson. That will be fine. If Rooney gets injured and RVP is unavailable, not sure how confident I'd be in playing Wilson.

Even in a one striker system we'd still need another striker. We only have two*, one of whom is nearing retirement. Lacazette and Depay combined would only cost about 50m, leaves 100m (if reports are accurate) to be spent on the midfield and defence.

*(Obviously Falcao won't be here next season, Wilson not ready).

Pretty much this, I'd also go a step further and get rid of RVP and get in someone young and cheap in the likes of Vietto/Berahino basically a player who isn't considered to be bought for the starting 11 but as part of the squad etc. The transfer would also pay for itself.

 

[An Irish Red]

Sign one striker. That leaves us with Rooney, RVP, New Striker and Wilson. That will be fine. If Rooney gets injured and RVP is unavailable, not sure how confident I'd be in playing Wilson.

Even in a one striker system we'd still need another striker. We only have two*, one of whom is nearing retirement. Lacazette and Depay combined would only cost about 50m, leaves 100m (if reports are accurate) to be spent on the midfield and defence.

*(Obviously Falcao won't be here next season, Wilson not ready).

But we had that extra striker this year and we had to play 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond to accomodate him. It would be the same problem just with a better player.

If we were worried about numbers then bring in Depay who can play as a striker. Leaving us with Rooney, Van Persie, Wilson and Depay for one spot.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Pretty much this, I'd also go a step further and get rid of RVP and get in someone young and cheap in the likes of Vietto/Berahino basically a player who isn't considered to be bought for the starting 11 but as part of the squad etc. The transfer would also pay for itself.

Not sure. If RvP does go, it frees up a lot of wages, but I think he'll stay.

Look at Chelsea, they only play with one striker but they have Costa, Drogba and Remy. So we could easily have Rooney, RvP and whichever new striker we buy.

 

[Cassidy]

But we had that extra striker this year and we had to play 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond to accomodate him. It would be the same problem just with a better player.

If we were worried about numbers then bring in Depay who can play as a striker. Leaving us with Rooney, Van Persie, Wilson and Depay for one spot.

We didn't have to at all, we did that because of the players reputation.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

But we had that extra striker this year and we had to play 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond to accomodate him. It would be the same problem just with a better player.

If we were worried about numbers then bring in Depay who can play as a striker. Leaving us with Rooney, Van Persie, Wilson and Depay for one spot.

LVG was trying to accommodate what he thought were his best players into the same formation. We abandoned that as soon as it became glaringly obvious that three strikers in the same side just wasn't going to work.

I think Depay would be better on the wing, considering our lack of wingers. We have Young, Januzaj and Valencia at the moment. Januzaj just doesn't look like a winger to me, Young is hard working but not good enough and Valencia is apparently a right back. Di Maria can play on the wing I suppose, but still needs someone on the other side (Depay, in this case).

 

[peterstorey]

Not sure. If RvP does go, it frees up a lot of wages, but I think he'll stay.

Of course he will, no one's gonna pay him minimum wage let alone £225k a week. You'll end up paying £75m for his one good season.

 

[Loublaze]

Signing these type of players is exactly the reason why we have a squad full of average players now.

The people saying we must sign him now will probably open threads in a couple of years time and complain how top clubs signed top talents like Dybala and Vietto and we signed Saido fecking Berahino.

Im not saying sign him up now, but what makes you think those players you mentioned will turn out better than Berahino? You're coming off as biased, pretty much overlooking the lad when he's the same age as the other two and has every bit of chance at success as they do. Is it because they're foreign with fancy names? Berahinho has already proven he can hit double figures in the PL league at his age and he has one year more of senior team experience. I doubt you'd be writing this if he was from South America.

 

[Insanity]

Of course he will, no one's gonna pay him minimum wage let alone £225k a week. You'll end up paying £75m for his one good season.

Not a hefty price to pay for our 20th championship. Especially, when it will be our last for a good while.

 

[mufcwarm92]

Of course he will, no one's gonna pay him minimum wage let alone £225k a week. You'll end up paying £75m for his one good season.

Not that hard to swallow when he won us the league that season.

 

[khoazany]

You can judge the individual talents of the players despite what team they play in, you can see the qualities they posses, and in Dybala's case Palermo aren't much better than West Brom in fairness.

Agree.People seems to think you must be average if you're an English striker and not playing for a top club.

 

[devilish]

Really? Surely it's more to do with buying the big names and having them not work out?

Smalling, Jones, Zaha, Bebe, Lindegaard, Buttner, Kagawa, Valencia, Young

 

[Insanity]

Smalling, Jones, Zaha, Bebe, Lindegaard, Buttner, Kagawa, Valencia, Young

Don't think those two were ever signed to be more than just back ups.

The verdict is still out on Smalling and Jones. Valencia had a great season with us and since then has been on and off. I wouldn't call him a top buy but not a failure either.

Kagawa was a system player. I think we need to be careful in the future taking players away from managers like Klopp, Rodgers, Poch or Simeone.

As for Zaha and Bebe, shit happens. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Sarni]

Of course he will, no one's gonna pay him minimum wage let alone £225k a week. You'll end up paying £75m for his one good season.

He's probably on nowhere near £225k a week, besides £24m plus £9m a year he probably earns isn't really that much to pay for us.

 

[devilish]

Don't think those two were ever signed to be more than just back ups.

The verdict is still out on Smalling and Jones. Valencia had a great season with us and since then has been on and off. I wouldn't call him a top buy but not a failure either.

Kagawa was a system player. I think we need to be careful in the future taking players away from managers like Klopp, Rodgers, Poch or Simeone.

As for Zaha and Bebe, shit happens. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Smalling and Jones are becoming the new Ando. Next year will be their year. Valencia hasn't been showing the good for years, Kagawa failed miserably,

I was always fascinated by redcafe's nearly schizofrenic way how to judge players. On one hand we throw the book at the likes of Di Maria whose been fabulous for many years (even during his first months at United) and had been meah in the past 2 months. On the other hand we keep closing an eye (or two + ears) on the likes of Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Ando etc who haven't produced any good football for months. Jones was even labelled the new Duncan Edwards because he kicked the ball straight once (or something of that kind).

 

[NJM78]

Smalling and Jones are becoming the new Ando. Next year will be their year. Valencia hasn't been showing the good for years, Kagawa failed miserably,

I was always fascinated by redcafe's nearly schizofrenic way how to judge players. On one hand we throw the book at the likes of Di Maria whose been fabulous for many years (even during his first months at United) and had been meah in the past 2 months. On the other hand we keep closing an eye (or two + ears) on the likes of Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Ando etc who haven't produced any good football for months. Jones was even labelled the new Duncan Edwards because he kicked the ball straight once (or something of that kind).

Agree with this big time, I'm sometimes afraid to criticize any of our gash players on here for the fear of being called a glory supporter, child or being told its not Football Manager. We have some seriously average players who would simply not get away with it at another top club. So what are we a top club or just an average club!?
We need to aim higher, its not us the fans fault either that we gave these players high wages and no other club would pay them the same amount. Its the Clubs fault and only more money being spent on proven talent will rectify it.
As for SAFs Duncan Edwards label, surely its something the remaining busby babes must cringe at. Its almost sacrilege. Lets shave Jones head and call him the new Duncan Goodhew that's a closer comparison I'm guessing as I'm sure Jones can swim

 

[Insanity]

Smalling and Jones are becoming the new Ando. Next year will be their year. Valencia hasn't been showing the good for years, Kagawa failed miserably,

I was always fascinated by redcafe's nearly schizofrenic way how to judge players. On one hand we throw the book at the likes of Di Maria whose been fabulous for many years (even during his first months at United) and had been meah in the past 2 months. On the other hand we keep closing an eye (or two + ears) on the likes of Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Ando etc who haven't produced any good football for months. Jones was even labelled the new Duncan Edwards because he kicked the ball straight once (or something of that kind).

Your hate for the ex-manager, without whom more 50% of us won't be here, fascinates me more. The constant mention of the word "legend" with respects to John O'Shea, when I have seen no one else mention it, seems more amazing to me. But lets not go there and derail from the discussion at hand.

So....

Smalling and Jones are not becoming the new Ando, no one is saying they are great. Injuries are a huge issue and I think most agree that we need new first choice CB's. Though Jones is only 22 years old and has played in a variety of positons since his arrival. To dismiss them outright as failures is what I am taking issue with. I think it's more in jest when someone says that we need to sell them all and but an entire new defense . I am sure no one wants to sell all three immidiately and buy 4 new central defenders. It doesn't work that way.

Teams buy young players, some fail and some work. That's part of the game. I don't think anyone would disagree that we need to be more methodical in our selection as we have had a good percentage that haven't kicked on. Though that remains true with our high purchase buys too. Mata, Fellaini, Falcao, Rojo, Di Maria, Herrera, Shaw - all bought for good money, haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either.

 

[devilish]

Your hate for the ex-manager, without whom more 50% of us won't be here, fascinates me more. The constant mention of the word "legend" with respects to John O'Shea, when I have seen no one else mention it, seems more amazing to me. But lets not go there and derail from the discussion at hand.

So....

Smalling and Jones are not becoming the new Ando, no one is saying they are great. Injuries are a huge issue and I think most agree that we need new first choice CB's. Though Jones is only 22 years old and has played in a variety of positons since his arrival. To dismiss them outright as failures is what I am taking issue with. I think it's more in jest when someone says that we need to sell them all and but an entire new defense . I am sure no one wants to sell all three immidiately and buy 4 new central defenders. It doesn't work that way.

Teams buy young players, some fail and some work. That's part of the game. I don't think anyone would disagree that we need to be more methodical in our selection as we have had a good percentage that haven't kicked on. Though that remains true with our high purchase buys too. Mata, Fellaini, Falcao, Rojo, Di Maria, Herrera, Shaw - all bought for good money, haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either.

You lost me here. You sort of suggested that big name signings were the problem. I made you a list of 'small time' players who had failed/are currently failing at United and then you ended up mentioning our former manager (and the single most important person United had ever had). What does SAF or Oshea for the matter has got to to with the matter? Oshea hasn't been in contact with United since he made Falcao look good. Which is kind of ironic considering that even Spurs U21 defenders were able to keep him at bay.

I suggest that you go and check how the Ando's fun fare started. I'll give you a summary. He was signed for a significant fee after Martin Ferguson recommended him at United (according to SAF he rated him as a bigger talent then Rooney). After some good games he was labelled by some fans as the one who 'shits' on Fabregas. It didn't took him long before he started losing his breath and vanishing in the treatment room. Every year became Ando's next year and voila, it took us 8 years to get rid off. With all due respect but I do see that pattern with our young defenders especially with Philip 'the new Duncan Edwards' Jones.

I acknowledge that a player needs 1-2 years to settle down however after that 'bedding' period if they are not good enough then they are simply not good enough. That irrespective on whether they are homegrown, British, foreign, big names signings, the darling of Manchester and English football Danny Welbeck or the ugly Argie 'diver' Di Maria . I also believe that too many players had been able to get away with it at United by not producing the goods and I attribute this weakness as the main reason why we're in this mess.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Smalling and Jones are becoming the new Ando. Next year will be their year. Valencia hasn't been showing the good for years, Kagawa failed miserably,

I was always fascinated by redcafe's nearly schizofrenic way how to judge players. On one hand we throw the book at the likes of Di Maria whose been fabulous for many years (even during his first months at United) and had been meah in the past 2 months. On the other hand we keep closing an eye (or two + ears) on the likes of Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Ando etc who haven't produced any good football for months. Jones was even labelled the new Duncan Edwards because he kicked the ball straight once (or something of that kind).

Really other than Bobby Charlton who has actually seriously called Phil Jones the new Duncan Edwards?

 

[DWelbz19]

Exactly! It is Young over Silva/Mata all over again.

Personally, the only players in EPL (which we can probably sign) that I would like to sign are Kane and possibly Stones (if he keeps the level for another season ir two)

Even both of these have far better alternatives around Europe. Dybala is the type of forward we need. Pace, hard working, the ability to beat a man and create something, and his versatility in positioning. He is far more of a 'forward' than simply a striker compared to the other young striker so people seek.

 

[devilish]

Really other than Bobby Charlton who has actually seriously called Phil Jones the new Duncan Edwards?

Many fans rated Jones much higher then he actually was/is. I find it damaging not only for our own credibility (we look Rawkish) but also to the player himself. A 20 something year old should be challenged to become better and reminded that nothing can be taken for granted. One mistake coupled by another defender's good performance is enough for him to lose his first team place. These silly comparisons and overratingness give young players the impression that they have already made it.

You see, many think that I am anti British or anti homegrown talent. They couldn't be more wrong. Giving games to average players because they are 'homegrown' or lovely lads, doesn't make them good. OShea has hundreds of caps with United but that didn't stop him from doing a school boy error by clattering Falcao into the box. Anderson played multiple times at United and look were he is now. What makes kids better is by keeping them on their toes. No wonder why the best talent in the 92 team happen to be the one who was mostly challenged in his career (too small pre 13 yrs old, asthma after 13 years of age, having to move from striker to midfield in his 20s, JSV signing, Ando, Carrick, Hargreaves etc signing etc)

 

[Insanity]

You lost me here. You sort of suggested that big name signings were the problem. I made you a list of 'small time' players who had failed/are currently failing at United and then you ended up mentioning our former manager (and the single most important person United had ever had). What does SAF or Oshea for the matter has got to to with the matter? Oshea hasn't been in contact with United since he made Falcao look good. Which is kind of ironic considering that even Spurs U21 defenders were able to keep him at bay.

I suggest that you go and check how the Ando's fun fare started. I'll give you a summary. He was signed for a significant fee after Martin Ferguson recommended him at United (according to SAF he rated him as a bigger talent then Rooney). After some good games he was labelled by some fans as the one who 'shits' on Fabregas. It didn't took him long before he started losing his breath and vanishing in the treatment room. Every year became Ando's next year and voila, it took us 8 years to get rid off. With all due respect but I do see that pattern with our young defenders especially with Philip 'the new Duncan Edwards' Jones.

I acknowledge that a player needs 1-2 years to settle down however after that 'bedding' period if they are not good enough then they are simply not good enough. That irrespective on whether they are homegrown, British, foreign, big names signings, the darling of Manchester and English football Danny Welbeck or the ugly Argie 'diver' Di Maria . I also believe that too many players had been able to get away with it at United by not producing the goods and I attribute this weakness as the main reason why we're in this mess.

I just wanted to rile you up a little. Couple of times I have read you refer O'Shea as a legend as a swipe at others and Fergie, which peeved me a little as I thought it was unfair to one of the better squad players we have had. Every team needs a player like him; a selfless player who is ready to perform in whichever position, whenever the manager wants. Those qualities need to be appreciated a little more. A squad cannot contain 25 superstars, who all want to play every week.

No hard feelings, please.

And come on, O'Shea didn't make Falcao look good. Falcao pulled an absolute piece of magic from a locker which he has rarely opened at United. O'Shea made Falcao look like United Falcao for most of the game.

I can understand the frustration with Anderson and with Smalling/Jones, though I do not agree that the reason for the current mess is keeping the squad players for too long. The problem has been throwing money around like lottery winners combined with terrible planning. We have spend close to 250m pounds since Fergie retired and when I go read the "Summer spending" threads there is a clamour to sign 5 or 6 top quality players, and with in good reason too. Despite of our massive spend and wage bill, we still need first choice RB, CB's, a Carrick replacement, a striker and a winger. That is a bigger issue, imo.

Why do we need to reinforce so many positions despite buying 7 players at an average of 35m each in the last three transfer windows? Did anyone stop Moyes and Van Gaal from buying a top quality CB or CM? Were any of our squad players such as Valencia, Young, Smalling or Jones reasons for us not to upgrade? I don't believe the answer to any of those questions is a yes. It's Woodard and his two managers ineptness that has got us to this position, imo.