Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

That is not an option for him unless he can do it under the pretence of some sort of victory. This is an existential crisis for Putin.

Your last sentence is hubris.

Saying he has the balls to press the nuclear button is hubris to me. He would have done so ages ago when Kyiv was lost.

He can withdraw his troops and claim some sort of victory with the destruction of $400 billion of Ukraine's property. Then the rest of us can laugh while the poor Russian public laps up his macho man propaganda.
 
I think Putin's best bet is to consolidate his territories in the Donbas and continue whatever was going on in the last 8 years. Just drag it on longer and turn the conflict somewhat cold. Make the Western media forget about it. That 8-year Donbas conflict wasn't exactly front page news once the Crimea annexation coverage fizzled out.

But the flipside of the above scenario is that the sanctions won't be lifted. So he'll have to oversee years of Russian economic and military decline.
 
That is not an option for him unless he can do it under the pretence of some sort of victory. This is an existential crisis for Putin.

Your last sentence is hubris.
What out is there to offer though? Ukraine isn't going to give up any territory.
 
What victory would you propose letting him have? Do you feel confident we won't be dealing with the same situation in a few years?
 
Saying he has the balls to press the nuclear button is hubris to me. He would have done so ages ago when Kyiv was lost.

He can withdraw his troops and claim some sort of victory with the destruction of $400 billion of Ukraine's property. Then the rest of us can laugh while the poor Russian public laps up his macho man propaganda.
No he couldn't have done it then because they were fighting under the guise of a military maneuver rather than a war. If he does state publicly that Russia are now at war then that does make the use of nuclear and chemical weapons more likely.
 
No he couldn't have done it then because they were fighting under the guise of a military maneuver rather than a war. If he does state publicly that Russia are now at war then that does make the use of nuclear and chemical weapons more likely.

We are still fighting under a guise of a military maneuver. If he has the balls to announce full mobilisation, then we'll see. But if he does, Russia's economy and politics will break faster than he can order a nuclear strike.

He's still struggling to find the balls for full mobilisation it seems. Partial mobilisation at best, I think.

It is not our problem to find an excuse for him to get out of this war. That's his problem. He has his own scriptwriters to help him save face.
 
I think Putin's best bet is to consolidate his territories in the Donbas and continue whatever was going on in the last 8 years. Just drag it on longer and turn the conflict somewhat cold. Make the Western media forget about it. That 8-year Donbas conflict wasn't exactly front page news once the Crimea annexation coverage fizzled out.

But the flipside of the above scenario is that the sanctions won't be lifted. So he'll have to oversee years of Russian economic and military decline.

I'm sure the Ukrainians will forget about the war crimes or the huge amount of gas and oil.

A single total petroleum system encompassing the entire sedimentary succession is identified in the Dnieper-Donets basin. Discovered reserves of the system are 1.6 billion barrels of oil and 59 trillion cubic feet of gas

Which is only 3% of Russias reserves apparently.
 
We are still fighting under a guise of a military maneuver. If he has the balls to announce full mobilisation, then we'll see. But if he does, Russia's economy and politics will break faster than he can order a nuclear strike.

He's still struggling to find the balls for full mobilisation it seems. Partial mobilisation at best, I think.

It is not our problem to find an excuse for him to get out of this war. That's his problem. He has his own scriptwriters to help him save face.
I fear you have quite a narrow and short sighted view of this.
 
I fear you have quite a narrow and short sighted view of this.

I fear that you don't seem to understand that giving him an out or more territory, as we did in 2014, did not stop the war.

It's not that we don't want to give him an out. We already tried that. It didn't work.
 
I have no idea. Probably let them have the Donbas region and keep Crimea. God knows though.
Ukraine wouldn't accept that and so the West obviously shouldn't be telling them to.
 
Ukraine are never getting Crimea back, but they're looking quite likely to just go re-take Donbas on their own eventually. No way they're ever giving it up, and no way we should be telling them to.
 
I have no idea. Probably let them have the Donbas region and keep Crimea. God knows though.

There's no such bargain on the table. The Ukrainians want their stolen land back and will continue to fight until Russians are evicted from their territory.
 
Unfortunately I am quite serious. The issue here is that Putin has nowhere to go but escalation now and if he declares this is no longer a military operation but instead a war then essentially all countries supplying weapons to Ukraine will be indirectly in a war with Russia. Not only that, given the terrible performance of the Russian military to date I fear that Putin may escalate the attack on the ground with the use of chemical and/or nuclear weapons. He is backed into a corner of his own making and if he loses this conflict his career and power in Russia is over so all bets are off.

The west need to try and give him an 'out' somehow where he can claim some sort of victory and de-escalate the situation otherwise I really do fear what will happen.

The West can't give him anything Russia are fighting and losing a war to Ukraine and the Ukranians don't seem to be in the mood for peace talks any time soon and who could blame them.

If Putin comes out of this with anything he can spin as a victory especially gained territory it will only encourage him to do it again in a few years. The response in 2014 was to appease him and let him and Russia get away with stealing part of Ukraine. That emboldened him to launch this invasion. I hope this war ends with current/future Russian dictators getting the message that they can't bully their neighbours and steal territory when it suits them.
 
Ukraine wouldn't accept that and so the West obviously shouldn't be telling them to.
The west could also stop supplying weapons to them. They have more leverage over Ukraine than you think. Not saying this would happen but I perhaps have much less trust in the western leadership and their motives than some.
 
I think Putin's best bet is to consolidate his territories in the Donbas and continue whatever was going on in the last 8 years. Just drag it on longer and turn the conflict somewhat cold. Make the Western media forget about it. That 8-year Donbas conflict wasn't exactly front page news once the Crimea annexation coverage fizzled out.

But the flipside of the above scenario is that the sanctions won't be lifted. So he'll have to oversee years of Russian economic and military decline.

Its too late for that imo. By invading Ukraine and subsequently having the Ukrainians gain the upper hand, they are almost certainly going to reclaim all of Donetsk and Luhansk and if the Russian regime is sufficiently weakened, they will retake Crimea (especially if armed with US calibre weapons).
 
If we wanted to surrender Ukraine, we should have done so on Feb 24th. Then we would have all saved billions in military costs and I wouldn't have to endure this shitty inflation for nothing.

If we surrender Ukraine now and Russia reaches Polish borders, then thank god for Brexit is all I say. I would also turn anarchic because I wouldn't trust any European government from here on.
 
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1. I don't think he gives a shit about that.

2. I think would be quite strong. Even China would have to pull the plug on him.

3. Yeah, I think a likely outcome is Nato claiming the airspace over all ukraine and from there blowing up all russian targets inside the Ukraine.

4. His personal power is also tied into his vanity, which is greatly assailed by all this. It's possible that anything but continuous escalation is unacceptable to him in the face of possible failure.

A lot depends on how it is deployed. 3. is the response if it's at a military target. If he strikes at a civilian target, the US won't stop at the Ukrainian border.
If I die in a nuclear holocaust I'll make sure to think "B20 was right."

Or do you not think Putin will use nukes and you're just arguing the details?
 
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The west could also stop supplying weapons to them. They have more leverage over Ukraine than you think. Not saying this would happen but I perhaps have much less trust in the western leadership and their motives than some.

But they won't do that, because they want democracy to prevail over totalitarian fascism.
 
But they won't do that, because they want democracy to prevail over totalitarian fascism.
And they have no reason to stand back. Russia stopped the gas exports to Europe and therefore now has no leverage left to fight the economic war and force Europe to retreat.
 
I fear you have quite a narrow and short sighted view of this.
I fear you are close to what Putin and his gang view as the "useful idiots" in the west. No offence meant. But shitting your pants every time the word nuclear is mentioned is precisely what they want to provoke. People lived under actual threat during the 60s and 80s , this is not even close.
 

Just shows how they're not serious. If they were smart they would only threaten Ukraine, that would scare people. Threatening the end of the world, they talk like Russia would survive after these launches. It's funny not scary.

Nukes have been around a long time. If it was human nature to end the world, it would have ended already.

This is a propaganda show. If you're gonna start a preemptive nuclear war, you don't announce it.
 
I fear you are close to what Putin and his gang view as the "useful idiots" in the west. No offence meant. But shitting your pants every time the word nuclear is mentioned is precisely what they want to provoke. People lived under actual threat during the 60s and 80s , this is not even close.
I am perfectly content with shitting my pants at the thought of nuclear weapons being used. Any sane person would also feel the same. I say this as someone who also grew up in the 80's. I shat myself then too.
 
Ah, we're back to this now? I am sure you realize this is exactly the train of thought the Russians want us to follow.
I don't say it because I'm advocating it. Far from it. I just don't trust our leaders as far as I could throw them.
 
I fear you are close to what Putin and his gang view as the "useful idiots" in the west. No offence meant. But shitting your pants every time the word nuclear is mentioned is precisely what they want to provoke. lived under actual threat during the 60s and 80s , this is not even close.

I remember the 80s. What makes you think the threat of nuclear war was more real then than it is now?
 
I am perfectly content with shitting my pants at the thought of nuclear weapons being used. Any sane person would also feel the same. I say this as someone who also grew up in the 80's. I shat myself then too.

If Russia really wants to have a nuclear war with NATO, they will have one, regardless of what happens in Ukraine. Ukraine is a mere sidestory.

You could replace 'Ukraine' with 'Moldova' or 'Georgia' or 'Poland' or 'Lithuania' and the nuclear war problem will still be there.

The only way to get out of the problem is the denuclearisation of Russia and that will not happen anytime soon.
 
Its too late for that imo. By invading Ukraine and subsequently having the Ukrainians gain the upper hand, they are almost certainly going to reclaim all of Donetsk and Luhansk and if the Russian regime is sufficiently weakened, they will retake Crimea (especially if armed with US calibre weapons).
I agree with the momentum shifting towards Ukraine but if I recall correctly even the Ukrainian military leadership themselves are saying this will at least drag on into 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin can hold onto parts of the Donbas for a couple of years more.

Mind, I'm just thinking out loud what options Putin has left. It's not looking good for him.
 
While in general I don't agree with balaks in terms of what could and should be done to give Putin a way out, I really don't understand how anyone can be so sure nuclear weapons are off the table.

Every major event of this sort in history is unlikely to happen, until it actually happens. We are rationalizing Putin right now, the way Hitler was rationalized in 1930s (well, my wild guess is he was). It's not like history isn't littered with thousands of crazy leaders, we have no scale or method to measure just how crazy they are until they do their shit.

Still, as I said before, I don't agree with balaks. I don't really see what world should do other than what it's doing right now. We are all deep in this (obviously count myself as anti-Putin too) and no way should anyone give up. Even at the cost of nukes. When Kingdom of Yugoslavia's government signed pact with Nazi Germany in 1941, partisan protests immediately broke out and a saying "Bolje grob nego rob" was coined. It means "Better the grave than a slave" and coincidentally, it rhymes in both languages.

I'm not really scared that our lives would be endangered, but even if they were, should we just drop our heads down and let ourselves be run over?
 
I remember the 80s. What makes you think the threat of nuclear war was more real then than it is now?
Two effectively equal in raw strength superpowers diamterically opposed ideologically, heck of a lot more nukes than now, inherent belief in the Soviet leadership that NATO nuclear attack is question of when not if, geriatric Soviet leaders who died frequently ( before Gorbachov), which every time that happened induced fears within Politbureau that NATO will use the confusion and attack, and on top of that crappy early warning systems that brought war very close several times https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...petrov-the-man-who-saved-the-world-dies-at-77
 
While in general I don't agree with balaks in terms of what could and should be done to give Putin a way out, I really don't understand how anyone can be so sure nuclear weapons are off the table.

Every major event of this sort in history is unlikely to happen, until it actually happens. We are rationalizing Putin right now, the way Hitler was rationalized in 1930s (well, my wild guess is he was). It's not like history isn't littered with thousands of crazy leaders, we have no scale or method to measure just how crazy they are until they do their shit.

Still, as I said before, I don't agree with balaks. I don't really see what world should do other than what it's doing right now. We are all deep in this (obviously count myself as anti-Putin too) and no way should anyone give up. Even at the cost of nukes. When Kingdom of Yugoslavia's government signed pact with Nazi Germany in 1941, partisan protests immediately broke out and a saying "Bolje grob nego rob" was coined. It means "Better the grave than a slave" and coincidentally, it rhymes in both languages.

I'm not really scared that our lives would be endangered, but even if they were, should we just drop our heads down and let ourselves be run over?

No one is sure that nuclear weapons are off the table, but what can one do about it? A Russian hypersonic or ballistic nuclear missile can reach just about anywhere in Europe. They could nuke the UK for any stupid reason they can make up, and it doesn't have to be Ukraine. The only thing I'm 99% confident about is that we (the 'West') would never be the first to press the button.

If Russia wants a nuclear war, they will have one. The reason for starting one is really quite irrelevant.

I totally agree with your sentiment that we shouldn't let ourselves be slaves to nuclear fear.
 
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While in general I don't agree with balaks in terms of what could and should be done to give Putin a way out, I really don't understand how anyone can be so sure nuclear weapons are off the table.

Every major event of this sort in history is unlikely to happen, until it actually happens. We are rationalizing Putin right now, the way Hitler was rationalized in 1930s (well, my wild guess is he was). It's not like history isn't littered with thousands of crazy leaders, we have no scale or method to measure just how crazy they are until they do their shit.

Still, as I said before, I don't agree with balaks. I don't really see what world should do other than what it's doing right now. We are all deep in this (obviously count myself as anti-Putin too) and no way should anyone give up. Even at the cost of nukes. When Kingdom of Yugoslavia's government signed pact with Nazi Germany in 1941, partisan protests immediately broke out and a saying "Bolje grob nego rob" was coined. It means "Better the grave than a slave" and coincidentally, it rhymes in both languages.

I'm not really scared that our lives would be endangered, but even if they were, should we just drop our heads down and let ourselves be run over?
I'm with you on that. Ukraine shouldn't be a logical reason to use nuclear weapons for either Russia (as it isn't a direct threat to their national survival) or NATO. But if Putin wants to wag the nuclear threat irrationality to get leverage, then it doesn't matter if the issue is Ukraine or something else, the other side needs to be unaffected by the threat. I say this as someone who would almost certainly die in the early stages of an all-out nuclear exchange.
 
Putin using nuclear wars because he is losing (debateable) in Ukraine? I mean I think some of you guys are either scaredy cats or overestimating Putin's craziness.
 
So there will be an hour long speech tomorrow at 9am Moscow time, is that right?

We can dream it’s him stepping down, although we know it will be a long winded drawl as to why mobilisation is happening and how Russia is still really tough and strong and my dad’s harder than your dad.
 
I fear you have quite a narrow and short sighted view of this.

If you believe this ends any other way than complete Russian withdrawal/retreat from Ukraine territories then I'll turn that comment back on you.

Any supposed 'escalation' people think Putin is capable of will only speed up that process.
 
Maybe he told his top 3 advisors 3 different plans and saw which one the Americans knew about first!
Zeihan says that the US is listening to all his calls and reading all his emails. He hasn't said who his sources are but he's a DC think tank guy.