Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[TMDaines]

 

[TheReligion]

Disappointing that he didn't answer her questions regarding the Russian elite. I believe that's what she actually aimed for because it is clear that we can't go into a nuclear war for Ukraine. But making the people suffer who can actually get through to Putin and burst his bubble, that's something we should do and that should be done with more consequence and without loopholes.

As much as I’m no fan of his I think he’s done very well so far and what’s he’s said has been brilliant.

Not seen much else from world leaders to be honest. The rest of Europe was very slow to even help out whilst the UK (and US to be fair) have been sending weapons and soldiers to help with training, for weeks and months now.

 

[TheReligion]

So admirable from the Ukrainian people.

Hope it doesn’t end badly. This is what we need to see within Russia outside the Kremlin

 

[IWat]

Amazing courage that they're showing.

 

[the_cliff]

As much as I’m no fan of his I think he’s done very well so far and what’s he’s said has been brilliant.

Not seen much else from world leaders to be honest. The rest of Europe was very slow to even help out whilst the UK (and US to be fair) have been sending weapons and soldiers to help with training, for weeks and months now.

I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Disappointing that he didn't answer her questions regarding the Russian elite. I believe that's what she actually aimed for because it is clear that we can't go into a nuclear war for Ukraine. But making the people suffer who can actually get through to Putin and burst his bubble, that's something we should do and that should be done with more consequence and without loopholes.

I think the no fly zone (and peoples suffering generally, which is fully understandable) were her main points.. Roman possibly mentioned as an example that would be relevant given UK PM in front of her. I’m not sure the billionaires will really suffer (they might be affected but they’ll still be rich?) or impact on Putins plans/mindset

 

[TMDaines]

 

[TMDaines]

I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.

They've announced sanctions. Implementing them and enforcing them is very different entirely.

It is the exact same thing Priti Patel and the Home Office are doing. A big announcement of support, a headline grabbing figure... then still, nothing changes.

 

[Walrus]

Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.

 

[Dans]

I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.

You can't be serious?

 

[Water Melon]

Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.

If you are a Russian and are in Russia, you will not and can not ask this question publicly.

 

[VorZakone]

More on Russian logistical problems

This is incredible stuff.

 

[sun_tzu]

Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.

that nato was bombing civilians in the donbas to support their drug addicted neo nazi puppet regime and shot down russian planes that were bringing in urgent medical supplies

I mean its pretty clear by now he will say whatever he wants and the russian media will regurgitate it (because they are pretty much dead if they dont)

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Sending NATO troops in may well be right morally but the result would likely be shit scary

 

[Walrus]

If you are a Russian and are in Russia, you will not and can not ask this question publicly.

Indeed, but the more we (as the West) can do to force Putin to contradict his claims, or to open up the eyes of the Russian people to what is going on, the better. One thing we could do is force Putin to admit that he has forces all over Ukraine, by enacting the no-fly zone over the west half, on the grounds that it is to stop the aerial bombing of urban population centres.

 

[The Firestarter]

Yeah, great idea wonder what could go wrong (thinkemoji)

 

[Walrus]

that nato was bombing civilians in the donbas to support their drug addicted neo nazi puppet regime and shot down russian planes that were bringing in urgent medical supplies

I mean its pretty clear by now he will say whatever he wants and the russian media will regurgitate it (because they are pretty much dead if they dont)

Yeah, but the more we put him on the back foot and force him to come out with these ridiculous statements, the more pressure it puts on him domestically and abroad, and the more countries around the world might start to question his rationality and use as an ally.

 

[Suv666]

There are questions over the legalities of wars in Syria and Iraq, but those regions were exceptionally volatile and conflict-ridden anyway. Just as a footnote, there are 250 mass graves in Iraq that are dating from 1979-2003, the time of Saddam's rule. I don't know how that can be blamed upon the West. Anyone who is of the Shiite faith or who is Kurdish will be glad that the world was rid of Saddam. As a hardline Sunni, Saddam did not view them as being Iraqi, so he felt that he could do with them what he wished.

Regardless of how you feel about Ukraine under its current rule, Iraq was a country where in a single year literally tens of thousands of kurds were killed using chemicals, and that is verified by independent human rights groups. I don't know how this can be compared to the situation in the Ukraine, which despite having problems with separatists, has nothing approaching that level of outright genocide of people on ethnic grounds.

Assad was arguably far worse than even Saddam. It was the world's responsibility to get rid of them and had the west done nothing, people still would have died unjustly. Again, this is not comparable to the situation in the Ukraine. Atrocities were happening in the region and would have gone on happening without intervention.

The Ukrainian conflict is an entirely different proposition and is about a hostile invading force taking over a peaceful country that has long been concerned for its safety since Soviet rule broke down.

I really don't think we do ourselves any favours by comparing like-for-like with ME wars. It merely fudges a very complex issue. In saying that, I do believe that opposition towards Western intervention often manifests as unwitting tacit support for blood-lust dictators, and their right to hold entire ethnic groups under their anvil.

I do agree with the sentiment that the situation is not comparable and bringing it up serves no purpose and there were considerable protests against the invasion of Iraq but anyone who thinks the invasions were even remotely justified and uses this opportunity to whitewash western warcrimes is *words that would get me banned*

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Sending NATO troops in may well be right morally but the result would likely be shit scary

it would be irresponsible as feck

 

[11101]

So has Europe. So in that context, what's happening in Ukraine is just more of the same. Right?

Europe didn't blame somebody else for all of our past troubles though, and it's been decades since there were any non-Soviet related fights within European borders.

 

[FriedClams]

This video to me shows that these soldiers at least, are not under any type of order to kill innocent civilians?

 

[do.ob]

Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.

You cant trap someone in his words, who has no honesty or good faith in him. Putin would just come up with new lies. And by this point I doubt that anyone with access to the internet still genuinely believes that this is a surgical operation.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah, but the more we put him on the back foot and force him to come out with these ridiculous statements, the more pressure it puts on him domestically and abroad, and the more countries around the world might start to question his rationality and use as an ally.

He’s been talking absolute shite for decades. Russians are either used to it or won’t challenge (doubt I would to be fair).

Other countries have known he’s been talking shite for decades and know he’s irrational/delusional.

 

[Gringo]

If it was me I'd have a hard time resisting in shelling that convoy. Call Putins bluff. He's been calling the shots for too long for it to stop at Ukraine.

 

[Buster15]

In a close in dogfight. Pilots who graduated from 4.5 gen fighters always say the sensor fusion on the F35 gives it a big advantage over them despite it's lower performance stats, and forgetting the stealth element.

Maybe. But as you will know, dogfighting is not a standard role nowadays. Both carry BVR missiles and both have AESA radar.

 

[fergieisold]

it would be irresponsible as feck

Where's the red line then? Is it not as irresponsible letting him get away with this?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

it would be irresponsible as feck

Yip, I was trying to be cautious with my choice of words… some people on social media/the Caf come out with grand “if I was in charge, I’d just do this” statements without any thought of the consequences. This is real life not Call of Duty

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Where's the red line then? Is it not as irresponsible letting him get away with this?

the red line is anything that will almost certainly lead to the use of nuclear weapons

 

[TheReligion]

I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.

Agreed, and much more proactively rather than the very reactive EU

 

[Raoul]

A good thread. He's not advocating for nukes, but is advocating that more needs to be done.

Putin has no off ramp at the moment, other than meeting his objectives of taking Ukraine and murdering its leadership, and probably a few hundred thousand Ukrainians along the way.

 

[Suv666]

@Suv666

To add to this, needs must really when it comes to selling something to the average Joe. If Ukrainians dying isn't worth the nuke threat can be sold, this is much easier because it's the Russian civilians at stake.

As i said, it'll be done with the right optics but there's very little chance Russians are thrown to the dogs long term once Putin has what he wants and comes to the negotiations table. Push comes to shove, he'll threaten attacking another nation or nukes again

Putin has miscalculated massively he would have never expected a united response frome NATO and the west would make sure he pays for it. I reckon the US and EU sees this as a golden opportunity to topple Putin and take out Russia from the game.

 

[fergieisold]

the red line is anything that will almost certainly lead to the use of nuclear weapons

Ok, well the other option is for us to sit back and let Putin do whatever he wants whenever he mentions he has nukes.

 

[Dans]

the red line is anything that will almost certainly lead to the use of nuclear weapons

Which essentially means, he calls our bluff and wins every time. Where will he then stop? There aren't enough forces in Europe for him not to be able to do the same in, say, the Baltics. He'll be emboldened if he gets away with this.

 

[TheReligion]

You can't be serious?

They weren’t as harsh from the start but he’s right.

UK also the first to send weapons and soldiers to help train the UA too

 

[ShoePolish]

I wonder how many troops Lukashenko has been order to send in? And is media propaganda just as strong as in Russia? Could end in another uprising, if they suffer severe casualties.

 

[11101]

Maybe. But as you will know, dogfighting is not a standard role nowadays. Both carry BVR missiles and both have AESA radar.

I suppose that's the point of the F35. You need to get incredibly close before their weaknesses are exposed but you can't do that because they can see and fire in all directions, long before you know they are there.

 

[Sarni]

Which essentially means, he calls our bluff and wins every time. Where will he then stop? There aren't enough forces in Europe for him not to be able to do the same in, say, the Baltics? He'll be emboldened if he gets away with this.

Yeah I have the same problem essentially. If he's not stopped in Ukraine it's genuinely only because West is scared of Russian nukes. At that point I don't see why he can't just ask for any piece of land under the threat of nukes. Let him take Poland, Germany, and make sure all of EU and US pay him compensation for their economic crash, we can afford to give him $5trillion a year can't we? Oh and he should have a villa in every country. He has nukes you know.

I don't feel comfortable at all anymore. Feels insane we are facing reality in which 1 person is going to rule the world because nukes. There has to be a limit on how far this can go even if it's not allowing him to virtually destroy the nation of 44 million people.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I suppose that's the point of the F35. You need to get incredibly close before their weaknesses are exposed but you can't do that because they can see and fire in all directions, long before you know they are there.

Pretty much as I understand it.

 

[Dans]

They weren’t as harsh from the start but he’s right.

UK also the first to send weapons and soldiers to help train the UA too

They are not by half harsh enough now. The exemption for the bank - 30 days to "wind up transactions" - it's a joke.

 

[Pintu]

Those were largely containment sanctions. These are far deeper and designed to destroy from within without the need to fire a single shot.

The sanctions imposed on Iraq in the 90s were much worse. Their built to literally starve the Iraqi population to death. Some western countries ended up lifting some of the sanctions and kept pressuring the Clinton administration to appease them.

I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.

The UK has been a safe heaven for Putin’s dirty money for decades. BJ has to tackle that issue.