Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[shamans]

You can put a mirror infront of every country and find issue you know depending on how far you pick to look back. Where are you from may I ask?

No you can't. There are some glaring hypocrisies in the world that doesn't involve twisting a story.

It's a bigger crisis because its a nuclear superpower invading a European country. You cant really be surprised that European and Western media cares more about such an unprecedented and potentially world defining event than a civil war in the Middle East.

Caring about it is different from forming actual opinions such as this being unprecedented or "more severe" than other incidents. It's a bigger deal because it's actual Europeans?

Not long ago Trever Noah was running skits on India and Pakistan headed to war. Two nuclear powers. It's just less human for the west when the rest do it because they are probably used to it.

 

[TMDaines]

Which is exactly what I've said (and @Raoul seconded). You can't have a legit referendum with "polite people" with guns "securing" every voting booth. And that referendum wasn't legit.

My point was on what an actual referendum would've been like (which makes your comparison with Ireland a bit off).

Agreed, I was focussing more on process than sentiment. Not sure there is a perfect analogy.

 

[IWat]

No you can't.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Just found a sect or pro-Putin weirdos from Ireland on a sub on reddit.

Jesus, the depth of human depravity and stupidity never ceases to amaze does it ?

Imagine these fecking idiots, probably growing up in Castletownbere or somewhere like. Completely separate from all of this. Now, hunched over their keyboard, foaming at the mouth, spreading their bile. No actual concept of what's going on, just grown up being a contrarian and that's all they have. Facking hell. You'd just want to smack the pricks.

 

[harms]

Even their Police vans look like they're from the 1970s

Hey, we have newer ones too!

 

[gorky_utd]

Good read here, explain why Russia invade Ukraine, and helps understand the whole situation and motives behind the invasion.

Great video. Basically putler is the military leader of the oligarchs. You have to feel for the Ukrainian people. They are losing everything while caught between superpowers.

 

[IWat]

Hey, we have newer ones too!

That actually looks pretty swish in fairness. Keep yourself safe!

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Hey, we have newer ones too!

That's a Winnebago!

 

[VorZakone]

So Finland's PM announced they will send weapons too? Bold move considering they're not a NATO-member as of this moment.

 

[harms]

That actually looks pretty swish in fairness. Keep yourself safe!

Yeah, our police vans are our national pride, the symbol of Russia moving into a clean, modern future.

 

[Beans]

I spent some time in Crimea a couple of years before the 2014 invasion and was struck by how Russian the culture and identity was there. Had there been a legit referendum, I think the Crimeans would've probably selected Russia (just not by the farcical numbers as in Putin's "referendum at gunpoint"). Even if Russia were to become a Democracy, I think there will still be considerable interest in retaining Crimea, which IIRC even Navalny is a proponent of.

Polls at the time showed that while those people preferred Russian identity to Ukrainian, they wanted to be independent, not part of Russia.

 

[led_scholes]

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely educated on Kosovo - Serbia situation, and am researching on it as our discussion goes on, but Serbia formed following Yugoslavias break up, drafted a constitution, that Kosovo disagreed with as they didn't want to be part of Serbia. That's a different scenario, as a majority tried to take over a minorities territory, after a break up of a former state union, when lines of new countries were drawn. If 2006 serbian constitution was acknowledged by the UN (can't find a valid report it was), then yes, they have no right for independence.
That's what I tried to say, historically, no country had a claim on any territory, everything was changing all the time, depending who had stronger military. That's why we have international laws in place now, that accepts and supports countries right to it's bound territory right now. If we start ignoring those laws, we're going back to medieval times, where everything is free game.
What argument did I make to base that claim again, bit confused on the last part?

We have international laws since 1648. Just because there is a treaty X that states that territory Y should be owned by entity A, for me this is not an eternal commitment.

So, in Latvia I m sure there was a treaty somewhere assigning the territory to the German empire. Does it mean that Latvian people should have stayed forever under German rule? Or for example: Crimea was transferred under soviet rule in 1954? Was that legal? In 1991, when Crimeans were asked, they stated they wanted to be part of Russia. Now, let's go to Latvia. If I m not mistaken, you demanded independence during the 80s. How would you feel, if instead of having the independence you wanted, the Russians would say: nope sorry, we have a constitution that says you are part of soviet union, you can't leave.

 

[Mihai]

Obviously the democratically elected President of Ukraine, Jewish descendant of Holocaust survivors, is a Nazi and needs to be replaced with the only non-Nazi available which is a man called Pladimir Vutin who wears a fake moustache and has a face like a toddler who's drawn eyes on a potato too close together.

Describe Lukashenko without saying Lukashenko.

 

[botond]

any news on what happened on the talks ?

 

[Raoul]

 

[The Firestarter]

any news on what happened on the talks ?

Explosions in Kiev right after.

 

[matt10000]

My feeling is that if there is no systematic oppression, people of a country can decide to go independent only if the current country allows them. That's why despite I support Catalonia's independence, I think that Spain has the right to keep Catalonia for example. There is pretty much no oppression there.

I don't have a good understanding of Ukrainian politics to know if Crimea and Donbas region were discriminated. I don't think that just wanting to leave is a reason in itself, cause then it never stops and we go back to having 10000 tribes in Europe.

Saying that, I think at this stage it is irrelevant. Crimea is a part of Russia now, so I don't expect this to change even if Russia gets a pro-Western leader. I think it is more complicated for Donbas, but I do not think it can get back to becoming part of Ukraine. The important part IMO is for this to end as soon as possible. I guess best case scenario might be for Ukraine to be neutral military-wise in a new deal with Russia and US/EU/NATO, but join the EU. Russia then won't claim to be threatened and Ukraine will prosper economically.

Yes solution has to make it appear that Putin has saved face in some way to stop his toys coming outnof his pram.

Historically the east side of Ukraine has a lot closer ties with Russia as Stalin aent loads of Russians there. The West side has been assoicated with Poland/Europe a lot more. I can see Ukraine being split with certain east regions independent of ukraine and pro russian and west side remain ukraine but with promises not to join NATO or something. Putsie isnlosing but a cornered wounded animal can be dangerous sonfor the sake of peace have to givehim something to save face.

Cuban missle crises was same, in the end US had to promise something in return to de escalate it

 

[BluesJr]

Every time I read "Putler" I die a little bit inside. How has there not been any news on the talks?!

 

[LARulz]

Ukraine joining the EU is surely World War 3? I can't see Putin stopping and going back with his tail between his legs, only way I see him going is in the event of a takeover from within or an all out assault to go swinging. Could also mean Putin turns up the heat in the next day or so to make sure they don't get a chance to officially join

If Ukraine joined then everyone has to officially get involved. I don't get it to be honest, not sure how that would end things anymore peacefully

Maybe I am just seeing it wrong because whilst Ukraine joining the EU in general is logical, the timing feels like it's asking for more trouble

 

[Cardboard elk]

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So Finland's PM announced they will send weapons too? Bold move considering they're not a NATO-member as of this moment.

The prepper nation is always prepared for Russia. They have a strong mentality. I do not think Finland fears an invasion atm. It would cost Russia too much, just like in ww2.

 

[Raoul]

Every time I read "Putler" I die a little bit inside. How has there not been any news on the talks?!

Probably because there's nothing significant to report. If there was, it would very big news.

 

[IWat]

No you can't. There are some glaring hypocrisies in the world that doesn't involve twisting a story.



Caring about it is different from forming actual opinions such as this being unprecedented or "more severe" than other incidents. It's a bigger deal because it's actual Europeans?

Not long ago Trever Noah was running skits on India and Pakistan headed to war. Two nuclear powers. It's just less human for the west when the rest do it because they are probably used to it.

And you think we don't take the piss out of ourselves? Or is that something that is banned where you live?

 

[Lay]

I know he’s a bit of a weirdo but Bald and Bankrupt’s latest video showing him and other Ukrainians flee Ukraine is worth watching. I’ve only seen half of it so far but the Ukrainians seemed a hell of a lot calmer than I would be

 

[sullydnl]

 

[Revan]

Yes solution has to make it appear that Putin has saved face in some way to stop his toys coming outnof his pram.

Historically the east side of Ukraine has a lot closer ties with Russia as Stalin aent loads of Russians there. The West side has been assoicated with Poland/Europe a lot more. I can see Ukraine being split with certain east regions independent of ukraine and pro russian and west side remain ukraine but with promises not to join NATO or something. Putsie isnlosing but a cornered wounded animal can be dangerous sonfor the sake of peace have to givehim something to save face.

Cuban missle crises was same, in the end US had to promise something in return to de escalate it

Exactly. Ukraine giving Donbas and Crimea (as in, a Security Council resolution voting it), making a deal with Russia and US/NATO that guarantees their defense (similar to Budapest one) in exchange for their military neutrality, with a clear short path to EU, IMO is the least painful solution.

Not what Ukraine wants, but they get a very good deal considering the current situation, and it gives Putler the ability to sell it home as 'we prevented genocide in Donbas, extended Russia's territory and we will be forever safe with Ukraine never joining NATO).

 

[fergieisold]

Not a fan of some of the anti western sentiment purely because of our own poor behaviour. We all know the west has been complicit in very questionable practices when it comes to military action - but that’s not a reason to lend legitimacy to what Putin is doing now.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[cyberman]

Exactly. Ukraine giving Donbas and Crimea (as in, a Security Council resolution voting it), making a deal with Russia and US/NATO that guarantees their defense (similar to Budapest one) in exchange for their military neutrality, with a clear short path to EU, IMO is the least painful solution.

Not what Ukraine wants, but they get a very good deal considering the current situation, and it gives Putler the ability to sell it home as 'we prevented genocide in Donbas, extended Russia's territory and we will be forever safe with Ukraine never joining NATO).

I keep seeing this but Russia aren’t asking for Ukrainian territories so why are people so quick to give them away?

 

[TMDaines]

Anyone else surprised that Russian civic society hasn’t quite melted down, given all the sanctions? Are they going to take a long time to really bite?

 

[BluesJr]

Surely this is not the move that's going make Russia back down?!

 

[MoskvaRed]

I could see the outline of a potential deal along the lines of:

1. Donbass stays part of Ukraine but with Catalunya-style regional autonomy, including as to language
2. Crimea stays with Russia subject to a confirmatory referendum and, in any event, a long-term lease of Sevastopol
3. Ukraine moves towards EU accession
4. Ukraine stays neutral for military alliance purposes but NATO (or US, UK, France, Germany, Poland) and Russia jointly guarantee the territorial integrity of Ukraine

That sounds roughly fair (not perfect) and allows Ukraine, the West and Russia each to spin it as relative success.

However, the problem is that Putin has destroyed any remaining vestige of credibility and it seems the West (even Germany) has finally moved past the point where they see any possibility of a working relationship with him. The West can continue to try squeeze Russia to encourage a palace coup in Moscow but, in the meantime, it’s Ukraine in the meat grinder as its citizens get killed or forced out and its infrastructure gets smashed up. There is no easy answer right now unfortunately.

 

[Smores]

I feel like we're a day or so away from Rubio demanding that we drop nukes as a preemptive measure.

 

[Pintu]

This is utterly disgusting behavior and should be addressed by the EU leaders talking to Ukrainian authorities right now.

 

[TheReligion]

No you can't. There are some glaring hypocrisies in the world that doesn't involve twisting a story.



Caring about it is different from forming actual opinions such as this being unprecedented or "more severe" than other incidents. It's a bigger deal because it's actual Europeans?

Not long ago Trever Noah was running skits on India and Pakistan headed to war. Two nuclear powers. It's just less human for the west when the rest do it because they are probably used to it.

nice side step. Again, where are you from?

 

[Revan]

I keep seeing this but Russia aren’t asking for Ukrainian territories so why are people so quick to give them away?

My feeling, it is not worth the trouble. Crimea is already Russian and is not coming back, so legalizing it in Security Council to give something to Putin loses nothing for Ukraine. And Donbas, I do not see how Ukraine gets it back without a massive military intervention, where they do to Donbas what Russia is doing to them.

Ukraine formally losing a bit of territory which they are not taking it back, for a clear path to EU and preventing their utter destruction is an excellent deal for them knowing their current cards.

 

[ShoePolish]

Too many questions for me to answer there.

I don't think land should be owned on an historical precedence because we've seen countless wars over the ambiguity of ownership and i don't see history affording rights to impose will. The people who take up home in any place should decide for themselves in a free manner and under no influence of threat, it's obviously never that simple and needs working through but that's the principle i'd stand behind. I'm against suppression of secessionism as i am oppression by military takeover, although the latter is obviously much worse than the former.

I've no idea if Crimea at this stage want to join Russia or reform with Ukraine, hopefully if Russia withdraws completely Ukraine do let them have that choice.

I'm under the belief, that constitutions and acceptance of it by the wider world gives you rights to the land you have. It might be very recent, and someone will always have claim to a territory because they got it in a conquest centuries ago, but there's a line that was drawn with the formation of UN. That's what stops countries doing annexations and wars against others. There's no ambiguity, if the whole world agrees on it. And Russia agreed on Crimea being ukrainian, not just UN, but Russia personally through Budapest agreement, that they have violated in 2014.
If Russia was so conflicted about crimean russians, they could've funded their transfer to Russia, and not violated Budapest agreement. At the very LEAST, they could've started by bringing the repressions to international attention, yet they sent in military (denying it was there, by the way), made elections at gunpoint, and revealed (widely regarded rigged) results that ended up in annexing the territory.

 

[IWat]

I could see the outline of a potential deal along the lines of:

1. Donbass stays part of Ukraine but with Catalunya-style regional autonomy, including as to language
2. Crimea stays with Russia subject to a confirmatory referendum and, in any event, a long-term lease of Sevastopol
3. Ukraine moves towards EU accession
4. Ukraine stays neutral for military alliance purposes but NATO (or US, UK, France, Germany, Poland) and Russia jointly guarantee the territorial integrity of Ukraine

That sounds roughly fair (not perfect) and allows Ukraine, the West and Russia each to spin it as relative success.

However, the problem is that Putin has destroyed any remaining vestige of credibility and it seems the West (even Germany) has finally moved past the point where they see any possibility of a working relationship with him. The West can continue to try squeeze Russia to encourage a palace coup in Moscow but, in the meantime, it’s Ukraine in the meat grinder as its citizens get killed or forced out and its infrastructure gets smashed up. There is no easy answer right now unfortunately.

I think Putin has taken military neutrality for Ukraine off the table now tbh. Ukraine's argument will be Russia cannot be allowed to get what they want out of this and that they cannot trust Russia any longer to hold up their end. Handing back 1/3 regions and having their demands about neutrality agreed to is Russia winning.

 

[TheReligion]

Surely this is not the move that's going make Russia back down?!

You need to understand Russia isn’t in control anymore

 

[GDaly95]

 

[Smores]

I could see the outline of a potential deal along the lines of:

1. Donbass stays part of Ukraine but with Catalunya-style regional autonomy, including as to language
2. Crimea stays with Russia subject to a confirmatory referendum and, in any event, a long-term lease of Sevastopol
3. Ukraine moves towards EU accession
4. Ukraine stays neutral for military alliance purposes but NATO (or US, UK, France, Germany, Poland) and Russia jointly guarantee the territorial integrity of Ukraine

That sounds roughly fair (not perfect) and allows Ukraine, the West and Russia each to spin it as relative success.

However, the problem is that Putin has destroyed any remaining vestige of credibility and it seems the West (even Germany) has finally moved past the point where they see any possibility of a working relationship with him. The West can continue to try squeeze Russia to encourage a palace coup in Moscow but, in the meantime, it’s Ukraine in the meat grinder as its citizens get killed or forced out and its infrastructure gets smashed up. There is no easy answer right now unfortunately.

I'd agree but you're probably about to be accused of giving in to Putin or some nonsense. There was a Ukrainian mayor earlier discussing being ready for compromise but not capitulation, I wonder how prevalent that is in Ukraine right now.

This thread likes to shout down anything this isn't a last stand but i'm sure there's plenty of Ukranians that would cede some territory to restore a sense of peace.