Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

If nothing else this war should put to death the neoliberal idea that all issues are essentially economic and that all evils can be alleviated over time through trade.

We've empowered autocrats and totalitarian regimes with this belief and it should be beyond clear now that regimes like Russia and China will not transform into open societies as a result of economic prosperity. On the contrary they will use this prosperity to combat free and open societies.

There are in fact moral lines in critical need of being drawn. The western investors on the Russian stock exchange are feeling the effects of it just now.
 
Balljy said:
Sending prisoners of war into the hottest spots is morally questionable to say the least. I realise, they're at war and difficult decisions have to be made but not sure I agree with that one. If a PoW is willing to fight for them they deserve lauding, not putting into a position where they are more likely to be killed.
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They aren’t POW’s they are regular prisoners. It says if they want to fight not mandatory, I don’t see anything wrong with it just more man power on front lines.
 
Rightnr said:
I don't see anything wrong with prisoners fighting. It sounds like the normal people have to do it, so why the double standard?

Separately, seems like economic reality cannot be denied even by the Putler gang.
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In fact, aren't there conventions about releasing prisoners in event of an invasion?
 
They're only released to fight if they want to, aren't they? Don't see much wrong with that, and in any case it's very easy to condemn such a move if we are not up to speed with what's happening on the ground in Kyiv. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
Balljy said:
Sending prisoners of war into the hottest spots is morally questionable to say the least. I realise, they're at war and difficult decisions have to be made but not sure I agree with that one. If a PoW is willing to fight for them they deserve lauding, not putting into a position where they are more likely to be killed.
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It's not PoWs you muppet. It is people who were in prison in Ukraine prior to the war, who are within scope of conscription. Keeping them imprisoned and maintaining their incarceration would stop being viable at some point anyway, especially when prison staff will be needed in the war effort too.
 
Varun said:
But I thought some said putin would have already accounted for everything?
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That whole debate around the strategic foresight of Russians reminded me of the Super League debacle. Surely, surely those giga-clubs, with insane amounts of money and huge PR staffs, must have foreseen the backlash, must have a clear strategy to navigate the potential pitfalls and to deal with public opinion? And it turned out the answer was no. They were just winging it, pretty much.
 
From winning at the Bernabau in one of the greatest Champions League upsets of all time to now defending your country - in the same season. Sheriff Tirapsol only went out of the Europa League on Thursday, the day Ukraine was invaded.

 
sullydnl said:
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This is what they are saying publicly......imagine the actual conversations going on.


Not opening the stock market was the first real thing Russia has said in a week.


Also "compensate the damage".... is that the printing press i can hear warming up?
 
Siorac said:
That whole debate around the strategic foresight of Russians reminded me of the Super League debacle. Surely, surely those giga-clubs, with insane amounts of money and huge PR staffs, must have foreseen the backlash, must have a clear strategy to navigate the potential pitfalls and to deal with public opinion? And it turned out the answer was no. They were just winging it, pretty much.
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Pretty much. Was insane how some felt Putin had everything planned and Ukrainians should immediately surrender as fighting was pointless.
 
It's not forced conscription either.

It just means that those prisoners who have military experience and would rather be on the front lines than remain in jail are given the choice to do so.

The only moral quandary is whether they should be offered this.
 
TMDaines said:
In fact, aren't there conventions about releasing prisoners in event of an invasion?
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How countries run their justice system isn't part of any war convention, and why should it? As long as those released are integrated into official military structures everything is gine in that regard.
 
Varun said:
Pretty much. Was insane how some felt Putin had everything planned and Ukrainians should immediately surrender as fighting was pointless.
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Still getting massive vibes of the early days of COVID too. Some people questioning every action, asking whether everything we are doing is truly necessary? Aren't we all overreacting? Isn't it just flu, etc? That aged well two years later.
 
Bosws87 said:
As a person that suffered terribly from anxiety a decade or so ago, i can tell you its not rational, doesn't make it less real
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No need to mate. There will be no nuclear war. News will be coming up every minute, so it is probably better to ignore this topic altogether. Concentrate on something else. Health comes first and foremost. Take well care of yourself.
 
ShoePolish said:
Depends really, as he now has to satisfy Ukraine's terms and West terms.

Think of it this way, his military is sieging Kiev right now so he will feel he can impose terms beneficial to him for this to end, in a similar manner, West is sieging Moscow right now economically, and they will impose their demands in order for that to stop. It won't go hand in hand with stopping invasion, I would think.
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Russia could take over Kiev tomorrow and it isn't saving Putin or Russia in any way whatsoever, it wouldn't be much of a win, equivalent of pissing your pants to be warm for a few seconds in the cold, as his and Russias major problem right not isn't what threat Ukraine poses.

There isn't really all that many terms Putin can dictate. One thing is the sanctions towards Russia, but western countries have also united to the point where we are publicly stating we're shipping a shit ton of weapons to support Ukraine. Western companies are scrambling to dump everything related to Russia. He's gone fecked up, badly.

Putin might get away with having some of the sanctions removed if he stops the invasion of Ukraine, probably even some financial carrots under the table to compensate for the damage that the sanctions have already caused. Air space would probably be opened up again for Russian flights etc.
 
stefan92 said:
How countries run their justice system isn't part of any war convention, and why should it? As long as those released are integrated into official military structures everything is gine in that regard.
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Maybe I am wrong, but I could have sworn I have read condemnations of other countries in recent history who kept their prisoners incarcerated and left to fend for themselves unarmed, even whilst cities were being razed around them.
 
WPMUFC said:
This is what they are saying publicly......imagine the actual conversations going on.


Not opening the stock market was the first real thing Russia has said in a week.


Also "compensate the damage".... is that the printing press i can hear warming up?
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With the risk of making myself look stupid, would that not make things significantly worse rather than better?
 
Siorac said:
That whole debate around the strategic foresight of Russians reminded me of the Super League debacle. Surely, surely those giga-clubs, with insane amounts of money and huge PR staffs, must have foreseen the backlash, must have a clear strategy to navigate the potential pitfalls and to deal with public opinion? And it turned out the answer was no. They were just winging it, pretty much.
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Or Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Surely they expected the international reaction? No, quite the contrary. I read on r/askhistorians that were reports of Iraqi intelligence looking at Western media news to gauge Western sentiment, and even thinking that the US gave them a greenlight.

But I think people expect insanity from leaders like Hussein, North Korea regime and such. Plenty figured Putin though was far too smart to do something so drastic, including me by the way.
 
GDaly95 said:
With the risk of making myself look stupid, would that not make things significantly worse rather than better?
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Yup, but that is not happening. The Central Bank just increased the interest rates from 10% to 20%. Printing new money makes no sense.
 
Siorac said:
That whole debate around the strategic foresight of Russians reminded me of the Super League debacle. Surely, surely those giga-clubs, with insane amounts of money and huge PR staffs, must have foreseen the backlash, must have a clear strategy to navigate the potential pitfalls and to deal with public opinion? And it turned out the answer was no. They were just winging it, pretty much.
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I tried to run with this invasion being Putler's Superleague moment but I didn't get very far :(.

I am surprised no one has made an Avengers style meme about this whole situation.
 
TMDaines said:
Both the unified WBA (Super), IBF, WBO and IBO heavyweight champion, and now prisoners are joining the defence:



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Let the killers do the killing eh?

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Wouldn't want to be their commander though. Some sleepless nights await anyone in charge of that group.
 
TMDaines said:
Maybe I am wrong, but I could have sworn I have read condemnations of other countries in recent history who kept their prisoners incarcerated and left to fend for themselves unarmed, even whilst cities were being razed around them.
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It's one thing letting people behind to die, it's another thing to allow people to leave prison to join the army.

And while it's inhuman to leave prisoners locked in a burning and exploding jail, it is not exactly against any war convention, but rather a breaking of the human rights charta I think.
 
Can someone just help make sure I am not misunderstanding

Why are the EU so desperate for Ukraine to join the EU right now? Does that not cause a massive issue if Russia is still trying to invade because then it's a case of Russia vs the EU who then all need to get involved? And then NATO?
 
Redlyn said:
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this is mostly delusional bollocks though isn’t it?

Ukrainians weren’t that bothered about joining until Putin stole Crimea from them in 2014, is he really surprised public opinion turned after he literally invaded them? Of course not it’s exactly how you’d expect it to go

and Russia already borders NATO countries so why do they need to invade Ukraine to stop NATO lining up some missiles? It’s horseshit
 
LARulz said:
Can someone just help make sure I am not misunderstanding

Why are the EU so desperate for Ukraine to join the EU right now? Does that not cause a massive issue if Russia is still trying to invade because then it's a case of Russia vs the EU who then all need to get involved? And then NATO?
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Ukraine might have to give up certain territories if wants to join the EU. An accord would have to be reached.

People often talk about joining the EU like it's Netflix *cough* Scotland *cough* but it's not such an easy process.
 
TMDaines said:
It's not PoWs you muppet. It is people who were in prison in Ukraine prior to the war, who are within scope of conscription. Keeping them imprisoned and maintaining their incarceration would stop being viable at some point anyway, especially when prison staff will be needed in the war effort too.
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Ah I also thought these were Russian prisoners as this is how it got reported in Polish media at first. If it's regular prisoners then it's fair game. Should not say they will put them in heated areas though, just that they will be fighting.
 
Does Ukraine have a death penalty in their judicial system?

Imagine making a combat unit out of those awaiting the death penalty.
Wrap them with C4 and bubblewrap the feck out of them and just roll them down the hill.
 
One point I'll make, and not to seem like I'm pro-Russian, is that we need to be vary of the mistakes made after World War 1 to not completely humiliate the Russians following any negotiations, and provoke a worse response in future years.

We've seen that their economy can be devastated following the sanctions. That, coupled with the humiliation of not being able to conquer Ukraine, could have an extreme impact on the population and leaders, who can be very nationalistic.

Ofcourse Russia is 100% wrong in what they've done, but with peace talks we should negotiate that they completely withdraw from Ukraine but then lift sanctions put on them (if possible also the resignation of Putin) so that they don't fall into economic despair, like what happened in Germany after WW1.

Hopefully Russia would have learnt their lesson that they cannot attack a country that has the support of NATO (feel free to march eastward towards Arabia though :D). With that lesson we can allow them back into the world economy and not sever relations entirely
 
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