Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

romufc said:
Whilst its not black and white, comparing players from 15 years ago to now, is also not really fair.

Teams play completely differently now, where they press alot more.
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So what? I just picked the two most obvious Utd examples, but there are still deeper lying midfielders playing today who have great ball retention and progress play. Those two things are not mutually exclusive like you tried to make out.
 
Those of you on here who are 'style of play experts'', can you see our style of play? If so what is it and is it what Amorim wants ?

Thanks.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Not really sitting on the fence, I think it's a tricky situation. The team needs a better midfield, but our most productive player is Bruno. However in the long run there are deficiencies to Bruno's game that shouldn't be ignored, especially given what we need a our midfield to do.

We need a player in the mould Carrick, desperately and we also need someone who can run with the ball and play forward. I don't see Bruno being able to do either of those things.

Now as for the bolded part, cherry picking stats is no way to make a case, it's also completely missing the point. Passing forward is not just about creativity. We need someone to know when to keep things ticking over, play it short, play the right pass, spread play etc. We also need someone who can run with the ball, beat a man and play quickly into our forwards. None of our midfielders can do this. I get the feeling you want to make this a debate about Bruno specifically for whatever reason, whereas I think this is an issue about our midfield and the team.
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Here are some of his stats.

vs Blackburn – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/100 (92%)
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 96/104 (92%)
vs Wolves – subbed off after 58 minutes to give Paul Pogba a decent run. 49/56 (88%)
vs West Brom – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/96 (92%)
vs Tottenham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 72/81 (89%)
vs Norwich – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/101 (87%)
vs Liverpool – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/98 (94%)
vs Chelsea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/76 (87%)
vs Stoke – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 129/139 (93%)
vs Arsenal – completed more passes than any other player with 51/56 (91%). Song attempted 56 and completed 47 (84%).
vs Bolton – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 59/66 (89%)
vs Newcastle – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 69/80 (86%)
vs Blackburn – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 34/38 passes (90%).
vs Wigan – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 39/40 passes (98%).
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 67/74 (91%)
vs QPR – one player attempted and completed more passes (Faurlin – 52/71 or 73%). Completed 49/58 (85%).
vs Wolves – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/73 (90%)
vs Villa – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 55/62 (89%)
vs Newcastle – one player attempted and completed more passes (Giggs – 52/64 or 81%). Completed 45/54 (83%).
vs Swansea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 92/96 (96%)
vs Sunderland – subbed on in the 83rd minute. Completed 4/4 passes (100%).

He's now seen as being a great, calm and influential midfielder.

BUT - do you remember that he was called The Crab for always passing sideways. Fans used to groan when be made another sideways pass.

In today's football if we weren't winning the match I think if he was unknown he would generate a lot of groans. Your comment about playing the ball forward is exactly what fans complained he didn't do.
 
Stig said:
Here are some of his stats.

vs Blackburn – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/100 (92%)
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 96/104 (92%)
vs Wolves – subbed off after 58 minutes to give Paul Pogba a decent run. 49/56 (88%)
vs West Brom – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/96 (92%)
vs Tottenham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 72/81 (89%)
vs Norwich – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/101 (87%)
vs Liverpool – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/98 (94%)
vs Chelsea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/76 (87%)
vs Stoke – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 129/139 (93%)
vs Arsenal – completed more passes than any other player with 51/56 (91%). Song attempted 56 and completed 47 (84%).
vs Bolton – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 59/66 (89%)
vs Newcastle – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 69/80 (86%)
vs Blackburn – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 34/38 passes (90%).
vs Wigan – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 39/40 passes (98%).
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 67/74 (91%)
vs QPR – one player attempted and completed more passes (Faurlin – 52/71 or 73%). Completed 49/58 (85%).
vs Wolves – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/73 (90%)
vs Villa – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 55/62 (89%)
vs Newcastle – one player attempted and completed more passes (Giggs – 52/64 or 81%). Completed 45/54 (83%).
vs Swansea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 92/96 (96%)
vs Sunderland – subbed on in the 83rd minute. Completed 4/4 passes (100%).

He's now seen as being a great, calm and influential midfielder.

BUT - do you remember that he was called The Crab for always passing sideways. Fans used to groan when be made another sideways pass.

In today's football if we weren't winning the match I think if he was unknown he would generate a lot of groans. Your comment about playing the ball forward is exactly what fans complained he didn't do.
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I think if he was playing in today's age he'd be one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe, he's a better player than Zubimendi is the most similar player I can think of in the market that's available.

I think Carrick wasn't appreciated enough by English fans, but most on the continent appreciated just how good he was, and as the premier league changed, he became more appreciated for what he did.

God, I wish we had him playing for us, he'd be our best player by a country mile.

Thanks for those stats by the way, very interesting to see, is it possible to see how many progressive passes he was able to play?
 
Stig said:
Here are some of his stats.

vs Blackburn – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/100 (92%)
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 96/104 (92%)
vs Wolves – subbed off after 58 minutes to give Paul Pogba a decent run. 49/56 (88%)
vs West Brom – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/96 (92%)
vs Tottenham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 72/81 (89%)
vs Norwich – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/101 (87%)
vs Liverpool – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/98 (94%)
vs Chelsea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/76 (87%)
vs Stoke – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 129/139 (93%)
vs Arsenal – completed more passes than any other player with 51/56 (91%). Song attempted 56 and completed 47 (84%).
vs Bolton – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 59/66 (89%)
vs Newcastle – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 69/80 (86%)
vs Blackburn – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 34/38 passes (90%).
vs Wigan – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 39/40 passes (98%).
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 67/74 (91%)
vs QPR – one player attempted and completed more passes (Faurlin – 52/71 or 73%). Completed 49/58 (85%).
vs Wolves – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/73 (90%)
vs Villa – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 55/62 (89%)
vs Newcastle – one player attempted and completed more passes (Giggs – 52/64 or 81%). Completed 45/54 (83%).
vs Swansea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 92/96 (96%)
vs Sunderland – subbed on in the 83rd minute. Completed 4/4 passes (100%).

He's now seen as being a great, calm and influential midfielder.

BUT - do you remember that he was called The Crab for always passing sideways. Fans used to groan when be made another sideways pass.

In today's football if we weren't winning the match I think if he was unknown he would generate a lot of groans. Your comment about playing the ball forward is exactly what fans complained he didn't do.
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That’s because a lot of fans are idiots. He may have had that reputation in the earlier stages of his Utd career, but looking back at it now his progressive passing stats per 90 were exceptional, and far in excess of anything we’ve seen in recent years.

For example in the 2012/2013 season he averaged 11.24 progressive passes per 90 (which was the highest of any Utd players between 2009-2022). He hit over 7 progressive passes per 90 for seven consecutive seasons from 2009-2010 onwards.

As a point of reference, last season across the PL TAA was leading the way with 7.8 per 90. Bruno had 6.4.

So no, if we had Carrick now he would be lauded for his progressive passing by any fan with a brain and a pair of eyes.
 
dubplate warrior said:
I think if he was playing in today's age he'd be one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe, he's a better player than Zubimendi is the most similar player I can think of in the market that's available.

I think Carrick wasn't appreciated enough by English fans, but most on the continent appreciated just how good he was, and as the premier league changed, he became more appreciated for what he did.

God, I wish we had him playing for us, he'd be our best player by a country mile.

Thanks for those stats by the way, very interesting to see, is it possible to see how many progressive passes he was able to play?
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Some very interesting progressive passing stats here.
 
Zumbi said:
Some very interesting progressive passing stats here.
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Thanks for this, confirms my suspicions that people who complained about him didn't actually know what the benefit of him was.

I really wish Pogba worked out better. He is one of the most talented footballers to have ever played for the club, but for a number of reasons it didn't work out. That's another conversation/thread though.
 
Pogba was awesome. Too bad about the injuries and the fact we never played the 3 in midfield formation he needed.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Thanks for this, confirms my suspicions that people who complained about him didn't actually know what the benefit of him was.

I really wish Pogba worked out better. He is one of the most talented footballers to have ever played for the club, but for a number of reasons it didn't work out. That's another conversation/thread though.
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Agreed. I kinda use people’s opinion of Carrick as a test of whether they have any clue about football or not.

And yeah, real shame about Pogba. Never quite had the mentality or work rate to live up his potential, in club football at least.
 
Why does it always feel like we start coming good, and then an International break comes and ruins our momentum.
 
Why are people on social media acting like the "brand new Amorim song" hasn't been around for nearly 2 months?
 
Stig said:
Here are some of his stats.

vs Blackburn – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/100 (92%)
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 96/104 (92%)
vs Wolves – subbed off after 58 minutes to give Paul Pogba a decent run. 49/56 (88%)
vs West Brom – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/96 (92%)
vs Tottenham – attempted and completed more than any other player with 72/81 (89%)
vs Norwich – attempted and completed more than any other player with 88/101 (87%)
vs Liverpool – attempted and completed more than any other player with 92/98 (94%)
vs Chelsea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/76 (87%)
vs Stoke – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 129/139 (93%)
vs Arsenal – completed more passes than any other player with 51/56 (91%). Song attempted 56 and completed 47 (84%).
vs Bolton – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 59/66 (89%)
vs Newcastle – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 69/80 (86%)
vs Blackburn – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 34/38 passes (90%).
vs Wigan – played as a central defender because of injuries. Completed 39/40 passes (98%).
vs Fulham – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 67/74 (91%)
vs QPR – one player attempted and completed more passes (Faurlin – 52/71 or 73%). Completed 49/58 (85%).
vs Wolves – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 66/73 (90%)
vs Villa – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 55/62 (89%)
vs Newcastle – one player attempted and completed more passes (Giggs – 52/64 or 81%). Completed 45/54 (83%).
vs Swansea – attempted and completed more passes than any other player with 92/96 (96%)
vs Sunderland – subbed on in the 83rd minute. Completed 4/4 passes (100%).

He's now seen as being a great, calm and influential midfielder.

BUT - do you remember that he was called The Crab for always passing sideways. Fans used to groan when be made another sideways pass.

In today's football if we weren't winning the match I think if he was unknown he would generate a lot of groans. Your comment about playing the ball forward is exactly what fans complained he didn't do.
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The fans were idiots. Carrick’s passing between the lines, with either foot, was exceptional.
 
JB7 said:
Why are people on social media acting like the "brand new Amorim song" hasn't been around for nearly 2 months?
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I thought the same. I swear I heard Andy mitten sing it on talk of the devils. That must’ve been around 2 months ago. He had some story about bonnie Tyler, as that’s whose song it’s based on.
 
2 man midfield said:
I thought the same. I swear I heard Andy mitten sing it on talk of the devils. That must’ve been around 2 months ago. He had some story about bonnie Tyler, as that’s whose song it’s based on.
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Yeah he did. It started off in Bucharest and was being sang at OT that weekend. So maybe 6 weeks rather than 2 month but either way, it's hardly brand new.
 
After a few decent performances and results I feel much happier, going into the international break brings a certain calm to me as well. Have spent hours on these forums and listening to podcasts to try and they though the bad times but I feel like Amorim has given us the space to breathe now finally.

Look forward to seeing some more signs of others e when we return and keep building got next year.
 
dubplate warrior said:
I think if he was playing in today's age he'd be one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe, he's a better player than Zubimendi is the most similar player I can think of in the market that's available.

I think Carrick wasn't appreciated enough by English fans, but most on the continent appreciated just how good he was, and as the premier league changed, he became more appreciated for what he did.

God, I wish we had him playing for us, he'd be our best player by a country mile.

Thanks for those stats by the way, very interesting to see, is it possible to see how many progressive passes he was able to play?
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Lots of players said he was under-rated; presumably by the fans and the press.
 
Cutch said:
The other thing to note is the amount of injuries we are contending with and having to loan players out to leave us literally zero attacking options in some games on the bench.

Shaw, Martinez, Maguire, Yoro, Evans, Dorgu all defenders missing yesterday and then Heaven going off injured. Barely a word said about 6-7 defenders unavailable.

Add Amad, Mainoo, Mount injured and Sancho, Rashford, Anthony and Malacia out on loan and theres a lot going on to contend with.
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Who is this Mount that you speak of ?
 
Zlatan 7 said:
That’s far better form than what I had in my head for some reason
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Because after every 1 defeat you have ex players acting like when he took over we were first in the league and within months he had us below 13th and forced a team that was playing like brazil of the 70s to play like Wimbledon of the 90s.

Reality is we were 13th when he took over and one of the most clueless teams in the league.
 
Shark said:
Why does it always feel like we start coming good, and then an International break comes and ruins our momentum.
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Too many useless International games. Then we have 3-4 games packed in 7-10 days giving our limited squad no time to recover.
 
Zumbi said:
So what? I just picked the two most obvious Utd examples, but there are still deeper lying midfielders playing today who have great ball retention and progress play. Those two things are not mutually exclusive like you tried to make out.
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Go on name them then and show me their stats.... dont just say there are players with that.... Also, dont forget Bruno delivers goals and assists... so bare that in mind too.
 
romufc said:
Go on name them then and show me their stats.... dont just say there are players with that.... Also, dont forget Bruno delivers goals and assists... so bare that in mind too.
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You need him to name you deep lying playmakers?

Bruno is not a 6, and we need someone to actually dictate the tempo. Shouldn't be hard to understand. We also need someone to carry the ball, and Bruno is neither of these.
 
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dubplate warrior said:
You need him to name you deep lying playmakers?

Bruno is not a 6, and we need someone to actually dictate the tempo. Shouldn't be hard to understand. We also need someone to carry the ball, and Bruno is neither of these.
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Yes, I want him to name them and provide stats showing their progressive plays and chance creation.

Whilst Bruno is not a 6... never said he was, he is being used as a 8 and the complaints are he cant do all these things... when really in the last month, he has shown he can.
 
romufc said:
Go on name them then and show me their stats.... dont just say there are players with that.... Also, dont forget Bruno delivers goals and assists... so bare that in mind too.
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Neves
Pass completion - 90.6 (96th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.1 (87th percentile)

Calhanoglu
Pass completion - 87.8 (76th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.27 (90th percentile)

Caicedo
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.66 (72nd percentile)

Kimmich
Pass completion - 88.3 (80th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 10.09 (99th percentile)

Tchouameni
Pass completion - 92.4 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Gravenberch
Pass completion - 89 (87th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Ruiz
Pass completion - 89.4 (89th percentile)
Progressive passes per 7.27 (89th percentile)

Valverde
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.69 (72nd percentile)

Vitinha
Pass completion - 93 (99th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 8.34 - (94th percentile)

De Jong
Pass completion - 92.5 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 6.39 (80th percentile)

Rodri
Pass completion - 92.3 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 12.74 (99th percentile)

I could keep going, but you get my point. There are lots of midfielders in the upper percentiles of both pass completion and progressive passes per 90. They are not mutually exclusive traits - it’s just harder to find available players who have that level of passing ability. Shouldn’t stop us looking for it though.
 
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Zumbi said:
Neves
Pass completion - 90.6 (96th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.1 (87th percentile)

Calhanoglu
Pass completion - 87.8 (76th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.27 (90th percentile)

Caicedo
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.66 (72nd percentile)

Kimmich
Pass completion - 88.3 (80th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 10.09 (99th percentile)

Tchouameni
Pass completion - 92.4 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Gravenberch
Pass completion - 89 (87th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Ruiz
Pass completion - 89.4 (89th percentile)
Progressive passes per 7.27 (89th percentile)

Valverde
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.69 (72nd percentile)

Vitinha
Pass completion - 93 (99th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 8.34 - (94th percentile)

De Jong
Pass completion - 92.5 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 6.39 (80th percentile)

Rodri
Pass completion - 92.3 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 12.74 (99th percentile)

I could keep going, but you get my point. There are lots of midfielders in the upper percentiles of both pass completion and progressive passes per 90. They are not mutually exclusive.
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So you are kind of proving my point... So are you saying PSG play 3 DLP's? In Neves, Vitinha, Ruiz?

So basically you saying Bruno Fernandes is not good enough but come to me with stats of players who have same data as Bruno?

Bruno this season has:-
Pass completion - 75 (55th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 8.75 (98th percentile)

So he can progress play unlike what you are claiming he can't do? PLus he scores goals and assists.
 
romufc said:
So you are kind of proving my point... So are you saying PSG play 3 DLP's? In Neves, Vitinha, Ruiz?

So basically you saying Bruno Fernandes is not good enough but come to me with stats of players who have same data as Bruno?

Bruno this season has:-
Pass completion - 75 (55th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 8.75 (98th percentile)

So he can progress play unlike what you are claiming he can't do? PLus he scores goals and assists.
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I never said anything about Bruno. I think you’re getting me mixed up with another poster.

Have you forgotten what your original claim was that I took issue with? Let me remind you.
romufc said:
Let me ask you, what do you expect from a central attacking midfielder? Ball retention or creative play?
Funnily enough, you have also mentioned that you want the 6 to progress play, so you must understand you cannot expect a player to progress play and have 90% ball retention…
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You said you cannot expect a player to progress play and have high ball retention. That’s just not true. So I replied with:

Zumbi said:
I don’t think this is as black and white as you make out - there’s a really large middle ground between the two. Intelligent players with excellent passing ability can have high ball retention and progress play because they know when to keep it simple and keep things ticking over, and when to pick a riskier pass. Carrick and Scholes were both stand out examples of that. And that’s what we’ve been missing for a long time. Of course, players like that are hard to find.
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You then asked for current examples and I’ve given you a list of current midfielders who have high ball retention stats and high progressive passing stats. But apparently that proves your point? Ok bud. Looks like the opposite to me.

The PSG example illustrates my point - that we should be looking to recruit midfielders who can both look after the ball and progress play, because they do exist, and if you can find them they make your team better. They are just harder to find.
 
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