You're a wise person
Seriously though, you have my sincere condolences
Thanks
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) talk about the proposed new stadium, season ticket prices, Sir Jim Ratcliffe and all things INEOS after the first year of their co-ownership.
They also discuss back-to-back victories vs. Real Sociedad and Leicester City - was this the best week for Amorim so far?
Thanks
I never say they don’t have those responsibilities. Each of them have attacking/defensive responsibilities but WBs, inverted WB and 10s have different kind of attacking and defensive responsibilities.
You mentioned Quenda or attacking wingback’s attacking ability: ‘’their ability to change the dynamic of a team’s ability to attack. For example, the ability to beat a man can change the dynamic of a teams’s attack and open up an opposing team in a way that might not be reflected by direct assists. ‘’
My response is that those attacking wingback’s attacking abilities you mentioned are what Garnacho and Amad are good at. Due to those attacking abilities, Garnacho and Amad fits Amorim’s wingback’s attacking abilities at sporting. But I don’t see them fit as Amorim’s wingback’s defensive ability because Amorim wants his wingback to join the backline to form back five during defensive transition and IMO this is not something Garnacho and Amad are good at. That’s why I suggested to play inverted wingback so we can play Garnacho or Amad as wide forward so they can use those wingback attacking abilities (that’s what I meant by ‘’to express themselves’’) without forcing them to defend like wingback ‘’forming back five’’ (that’s what I meant by ‘’removing their defensive responsibility as wingback’’).
I have addressed this in best possible way for you to understand by:
Defensive transition:
- Telling you that as inverted wingback, their attacking responsibility become less in comparison to attacking wingback (again, less or more don’t mean they don’t have responsibility in attack). But they primary will provide balance for the team and allowing our natural winger such as Garnacho/Amad to give them more freedom and express what they are good at. Hence why I said it compliments Garnacho/Amad’s strength, it doesn’t change Amorim’s system, and it compliments our limited budget to allow us to concentrate other areas especially focus on the backbone of the team.
- And included the structure of how this inverted wingback operates (which I mentioned this last week).
GK
Inverted RWB - RCB - CB - LCB - LWB
Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward
Striker
Attacking transition:
GK
RCB - CB - LCB
Inverted RWB - Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward - LWB
Striker
During defensive transition, they have the similar positions because they both operate similar like full back join the backline to form back five, which I have mentioned this to you last week.
During attacking transition, they have different position and different responsibility. Dorgu occupied more in the final third zone, while Dalot occupied more in the between, which exactly what I described about the inverted wingback has less attacking responsibility than the attacking wingback and they provide more balance.
Their heat maps fit the description of what I demonstrated in their role and the attacking and defensive structure.
That’s an awful lot of words to still not address my main point, which is that Dalot and Mazaraoui’s quality on the ball when in possession is not good enough. If you can’t see how that limits us as a team then I’m not sure how I can help you.
As for those heat maps - thanks. Really helps illustrate my point. The difference between them are negligible, except for the fact that with new personnel at RWB would have a bit more attacking thrust on that flank. Which is what we’ve very obviously been lacking.
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Mazarazaraoui passes better than Dalot, especially under pressure.
I agree those heat maps show little.
Neither player makes a great wing back, they lack the winger component.
Yep, he does, much more technical player. But our right side is still severely lacking in attacking impetus when Maz is playing there. There’s a reason Amorim has typically liked converting wingers to be his WBs. And I don’t think long term Amorim is going to abandon that idea and instead build our right side around having Maz or Dalot as largely ineffective “inverted WBs”.
I commit the sin, you get the punishment… I like this.I didn't even make the bloody joke in the first place!
That‘s how I operate. Come up with a prank, and convince someone else to execute it.
I get the satisfaction but not the punishment.
Too much explanation on WB or inverted WB. We just need a RWB who is good at going forward and be adequately good in defending which is exactly who we found in Dorgu. We just need another one on the right. Dalot has been here for a long time and he isn't good going forward or defending. Buy a new RWB over the summer, our attacking will instantly improve.
Exactly. Well said.
All depends on budget but yes, even just for cover we lack athleticism there. I think people are cottoning onto how much attacking importance the WBs have, they don't have to all be Neymar like wingers, but they have huge responsibility for overloads and putting balls into the box.
I will say I actually believe in Dalot as a RWB short to mid term in the absence of huge money to go and get someone like Frimpong. Even then, there's also a part of me that thinks there is a high probability having two extremely offensive WBs might work in the Bundesliga but won't work in the PL so having more generally well rounded players might actually be a better long term idea i.e. Dorgu/Dalot as much as people might dislike Dalot they have all the attributes to be very dependable in those roles.
If we got another more attacking WB it doesn’t necessarily mean he’d be playing every game. It would just give us more options on how we set up. There are lots of games where we expect to be on the front foot but struggle to break the opposition down, and in such games playing two more attacking WBs makes a lot of sense, or even just having a more attacking option to come off the bench and change a game. We’re desperately short of quality out wide who can do that. Against tougher opposition you can then still pick a more conservative line up.
I also don’t think it would be beyond us to find a WB that is more effective/productive in attack than Dalot, but is also well rounded and dependable enough to replace him. I really don’t see Dalot as all that dependable, because he is prone to brain farts in both attack and defence.
Yeah agreed, it's also why I want us to focus on CM. I feel like the dream is getting to a point where in tough games you put in Ugarte and then some else like him and move Bruno forwards, but in games where we should be dominant Bruno/Ugarte can be a good enough pair for now.
Re Dalot, sure, I don't think anyone thinks he's perfect but I think it will not be so easy to replace him without either spending big on someone we know can play the role or, what i think is more likely, going for another Dorgu like profile who will compete with him but not necessarily be immediately 'better'.
I don't rate Dalot, he is just a average player. He can a bench option but never a starter. I have not seen him putting great cross consistently. Even we play a high line, he could get behind the defence he couldn't pass to an open player or score with keeper to beat. Insufficient overlapping run. Dorgu is just with us a few months, you can see his willingness to get forward.
Why? What have you seen that I haven’t?
He’s played over 200 games for this club and that itself is a felony.
He offers nothing going forward, his passing is hideous and he has quietly cost us some unforgivable goals (like the one against Spurs where VDV did that run and Dalot just lazily let Johnson jog past him for a tap in 2 minutes into the game).
Don’t get me started on his theatrics, Man thinks showing passion is throwing his arms in the air and hugging and kissing his teammates when he concedes a corner. But it’s actually just doing the basic, silent work… like, actually sprinting back when you are tired or just bothering to look over your shoulder when a cross is coming in.
I agree. I think Dalot’s biggest weakness is his positional awareness during open play. It has contributed to the fragility of our backline.
He’s also a player we might actually be able to sell and get some money, so I hope he’s on the chopping block this summer.
For some reason Dalot seems to be a player that doesn’t pass the eye test but a lot of our managers (bar Solskjear) highly rate.
Somehow thinking about if Amorim was in charge of England's squad under Capello. Just being able to fit in Lampard and Gerrard, and that squad would look ten times better.
--------------------- Rooney
-------- Lampard -------- Gerrard
A. Cole* -- G. Barry ---Carrick --- G. Johnson**
----------Lescott---Terry --- Rio
*Probably Baines.
** Probably Shaun Wright-Phillips/Milner.
--------------------- Rooney
-------- Lampard -------- Gerrard
A. Cole* -- G. Barry ---Carrick --- G. Johnson**
----------Lescott---Terry --- Rio
*Probably Baines.
** Probably Shaun Wright-Phillips/Milner.
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Dalot has been poor this season, but he was quite good for most of the last two seasons (and had a strong end to the season before that as well).
If we were still playing him as a fullback I'd have no interest in selling him as I'd expect that he would ultimately get back into form. But as a wingback I do think he has limitations beyond just form, so if we can get a good fee for him and replace him with someone more suited it could be a good idea. He's certainly not as bad as you are making out though, even this season.
He is rapid, great work rate, great availability. Has played in different positions. Chips in with a goal or assist now or then. Just not great output.
I don't think it's about the eye-test so much - which, for me, is a bad indicator in most cases because "passing" it usually means that a player does the flashy things - as it is about performing several tasks at a basic level in a team where the usual tradeoff of sacrificing some balance to maximize attacking talent creates more problems than the ones it solves (because the players who are supposed to come up with the goods are either too streaky or piss poor at everything else... or both). In other words, he's not so much of a headache. The risk with that, of course, is that at the age of 26 (and considering that he seemed to be destined for greatness as a teenager) he risks being labelled as a perennial talent.
Yup, he will be playing a lot next season as well. We should not expect him to be a winger or playmaker, just a solid defender who can fill the roles of wingback and rcb/lcb and is fit.
Yep, he will play alot because he has good attitude in training as well. What we need to learn as fans is we wont have a team of 11 world beaters. Every team that wins big trophies needs utility players, Dalot if one of them.
For me (and I suspect for a lot of fans as well) “passing eye test” for a wingback doesn’t mean doing flashy stuff - I don’t think anyone is expecting anything flashy from Dalot.
What we want to see is that he is defensively dependable, whilst being a solid support option in attack and generally making the right decisions more often than not.
What we can see is that, yes, he’s an athletic player who runs a lot and have good work rate, but there is always a mistake in him. I’ll even take someone like Rafael over Dalot. Hell, I’ll take an aging Gary Neville over Dalot.
All of England's problems throughout the 00's and early 10's would have been solved with a back 3. I have been banging this drum for years.
Not won a single game this week. Awful stuff.
Hopefully all the players came back from international duty ok and Amorim's had a week or so to recharge the batteries. Amad, Mount, Mainoo, Maguire and Shaw back soon.
Please don't feck it up against Lyon!
Please don't feck it up against Lyon!
I wasn't referring to him when i mentioned the flashy stuff, although there's a lot more patience on the island (from fans and pundits alike) for players that "look busy". And Dalot does. I actually agree with your assessment. Being athletic and running a lot doesn't make up for bad positioning and lack of concentration (unless you're Kyle Walker fast). If you watch his passing map after a game - and he sees a lot of the ball under Amorim - you won't be able to tell which side United were attacking on the graph. There's also this notion that he could be an answer to our ball-carrying issues, but he's bang average in that area, too. Finally, in the final third, he's good in the way most of our attacking outlets are: Getting in a good position to receive the ball for a final shot/pass, not so much helping our play to get in these situations. What makes him serviceable in this team (and makes managers pick him) is his availability and his ability to play on either side without requiring the whole team to accommodate him. He's been surviving on that during the whole of his United career, when he should be "forced" to improve several aspects of his game.
Hard work isn’t wanting to be a hero, bombing up and down the line like a mad man, in hope can either provide an assist or make a slide tackle. It’s doing the hard yards and busting a gut to get back in position even when you are tired.
Dalot has a huge tendency to just amble back at his own speed when opposition breakaway on the opposite side.
Nothing but laziness on his part and it’s lead to us conceding goals.
City’s second goal at OT last season was a prime example of this. As was spurs’s first goal this season.
Bernardo and Johnson were both his men and he let them run past him. (one Assisted, one scored in these scenarios)
Yeah. England was pretty weak on CM and width, but had many good CBs and (mostly central) attackers.
But can’t defend. Not bad going forward but awful at defending and he’s sometimes makes dumb decisions.
This seems quite a weird thing to see. Despite Rafael never being a world beater, he was a far, far better RB than Dalot.