Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[OverratedOpinion]

Neves
Pass completion - 90.6 (96th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.1 (87th percentile)

Calhanoglu
Pass completion - 87.8 (76th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 7.27 (90th percentile)

Caicedo
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.66 (72nd percentile)

Kimmich
Pass completion - 88.3 (80th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 10.09 (99th percentile)

Tchouameni
Pass completion - 92.4 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Gravenberch
Pass completion - 89 (87th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.25 (62nd percentile)

Ruiz
Pass completion - 89.4 (89th percentile)
Progressive passes per 7.27 (89th percentile)

Valverde
Pass completion - 89.1 (88th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 5.69 (72nd percentile)

Vitinha
Pass completion - 93 (99th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 8.34 - (94th percentile)

De Jong
Pass completion - 92.5 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 6.39 (80th percentile)

Rodri
Pass completion - 92.3 (98th percentile)
Progressive passes per 90 - 12.74 (99th percentile)

I could keep going, but you get my point. There are lots of midfielders in the upper percentiles of both pass completion and progressive passes per 90. They are not mutually exclusive traits - it’s just harder to find available players who have that level of passing ability. Shouldn’t stop us looking for it though.

I'd add chance creation into these numbers to get a more accurate picture. The eye test tells me that most of Bruno's failed passes are not the ones that are progressing balls into the final third but instead passes directly trying to create chances.

 

[Stobzilla]

He's now seen as being a great, calm and influential midfielder.

BUT - do you remember that he was called The Crab for always passing sideways. Fans used to groan when be made another sideways pass.

In today's football if we weren't winning the match I think if he was unknown he would generate a lot of groans. Your comment about playing the ball forward is exactly what fans complained he didn't do.

In his first couple years (certainly his first) this was maybe the case, but I think even he has come out and said that he was deferring to Scholes when he first came in so his first thought would alwasy be to try and find him, Carrick grew into being the main man though and became a player whose first thought was always forward, it is something managers and players have always praised him for.

 

[romufc]

I never said anything about Bruno. I think you’re getting me mixed up with another poster.

Have you forgotten what your original claim was that I took issue with? Let me remind you.


You said you cannot expect a player to progress play and have high ball retention. That’s just not true. So I replied with:



You then asked for current examples and I’ve given you a list of current midfielders who have high ball retention stats and high progressive passing stats. But apparently that proves your point? Ok bud. Looks like the opposite to me.

The PSG example illustrates my point - that we should be looking to recruit midfielders who can both look after the ball and progress play, because they do exist, and if you can find them they make your team better. They are just harder to find.

I mean you sent me stats of players with 60% percentile of progressive passes along with 90% pass accuracy... shows you that its not that easy to find players with 90% on both.

 

[Zumbi]

I mean you sent me stats of players with 60% percentile of progressive passes along with 90% pass accuracy... shows you that its not that easy to find players with 90% on both.

Stop trying to change the goal posts. You never said they had to have 90% on both. Although, I still gave you examples of current players who are around that.

You said “you cannot expect a player to progress play and have 90% ball retention”.

That is just not true.

Even if a player is in the 60th percentile of progressive passes, that still means they are progressing play better than more than half of their peers, despite having extremely high ball retention. That still contradicts your original claim.

 

[romufc]

Stop trying to change the goal posts. You never said they had to have 90% on both. Although, I still gave you examples of current players who are around that.

You said “you cannot expect a player to progress play and have 90% ball retention”.

That is just not true.

Even if a player is in the 60th percentile of progressive passes, that still means they are progressing play better than more than half of their peers, despite having extremely high ball retention. That still contradicts your original claim.

Okay... I will stop because you just trying to be a wind up now without any real substance.

 

[Zumbi]

Okay... I will stop because you just trying to be a wind up now without any real substance.

Not trying to wind you up at all. You made a claim which I disagreed with, and when you asked me to provide stats, I provided detailed stats to back up point. That is real substance.

And now all of a sudden you don’t want to talk about it anymore.

 

[romufc]

Not trying to wind you up at all. You made a claim which I disagreed with, and when you asked me to provide stats, I provided detailed stats to back up point. That is real substance.

And now all of a sudden you don’t want to talk about it anymore.

So basically if I use your logic... every player who has 90% pass accuracy can progress play because they will all have >1 % percentile of progressive play.

So according to you... every player can progress play. Fair enough, say that then.

 

[Zumbi]

So basically if I use your logic... every player who has 90% pass accuracy can progress play because they will all have >1 % percentile of progressive play.

So according to you... every player can progress play. Fair enough, say that then.

Do not honestly not understand percentiles?

Those stats show those players rank more highly than their peers in both pass competition and progressive play. That contradicts your original claim that you can either have one or the other.

 

[romufc]

Do not honestly not understand percentiles?

Those stats show those players rank more highly than their peers in both pass competition and progressive play. That contradicts your original claim that you can either have one or the other.

You said anything above 50% progressive passes is amazing,.... so would you say 50% passing accuracy is amazing because they are better than half the peers?

I am using your own logic against you and you dont like it.

 

[Zumbi]

You said anything above 50% progressive passes is amazing,.... so would you say 50% passing accuracy is amazing because they are better than half the peers?

I am using your own logic against you and you dont like it.

Oh, you actually don’t understand percentiles. My bad.

You are confusing the percentage on the passing completion stat, with the percentile stat of how they compare to their peers. Those are two completely different things.

 

[Eriku]

That’s because a lot of fans are idiots. He may have had that reputation in the earlier stages of his Utd career, but looking back at it now his progressive passing stats per 90 were exceptional, and far in excess of anything we’ve seen in recent years.

For example in the 2012/2013 season he averaged 11.24 progressive passes per 90 (which was the highest of any Utd players between 2009-2022). He hit over 7 progressive passes per 90 for seven consecutive seasons from 2009-2010 onwards.

As a point of reference, last season across the PL TAA was leading the way with 7.8 per 90. Bruno had 6.4.

So no, if we had Carrick now he would be lauded for his progressive passing by any fan with a brain and a pair of eyes.

2012-13 everybody says RvP was out best player. I think one could just as easily say Carrick, he was absolutely immense that season.

He would probably have been more important and more appreciated if he didn’t come into a midfield where Scholes is the one everybody looks to. He took a back seat for quite a while.

 

[romufc]

Oh, you actually don’t understand percentiles. My bad.

You are confusing the percentage on the passing completion stat, with the percentile stat of how they compare to their peers. Those are two completely different things.

Right... because you are struggling I will explain and see who doesnt get what.

Even if a player is in the 60th percentile of progressive passes, that still means they are progressing play better than more than half of their peers

So 60th Percentile.... - not % percentile, according to you.

If a player had, above 50th percentile for passing %.... means as per your logic its good because they are better than half their peers.

So for you... as long as you are better than half your peers its good enough.

In theory... what you think is good and what I did is different... for you as 50th percentile is good enough and for me not. That is where the difference lies.

 

[Zumbi]

2012-13 everybody says RvP was out best player. I think one could just as easily say Carrick, he was absolutely immense that season.

He would probably have been more important and more appreciated if he didn’t come into a midfield where Scholes is the one everybody looks to. He took a back seat for quite a while.

Yep, agreed, he was spectacular that season - an absolute joy to watch. And how we could do with a player of his style and calibre in our current team.

 

[Zumbi]

Right... because you are struggling I will explain and see who doesnt get what.



So 60th Percentile.... - not % percentile, according to you.

If a player had, above 50th percentile for passing %.... means as per your logic its good because they are better than half their peers.

So for you... as long as you are better than half your peers its good enough.

In theory... what you think is good and what I did is different... for you as 50th percentile is good enough and for me not. That is where the difference lies.

Stop straw manning me. I didn’t quote stats from anyone as low as 50 in their progressive passing percentile ranking. The lowest is quoted was 62 (which is still better than most of their peers) but the majority of the ones I quoted were in the 70s, 80 and 90s. That puts them in the upper tiers of progressive passers, as well as in the upper tiers of pass completion stats.

Once again, you were the one that falsely claimed you cannot have high pass completion stats and progress play. That is just not true and I gave you a list of players with stats which proves that’s not true.

You not being able to understand basic football stats doesn’t change that.

 

[dubplate warrior]

It's possible to have players who can dictate the tempo and progress play. In fact for a top team it's necessary, how else do you control games?

I look at PSG's midfield with envy. Vitinha and Neves are outstanding players and exactly the kind of players we need in the middle. The liquid football they're playing right now is thanks to that mix or intelligence and elite, technical security.

We don't have one midfielder who can do what these midfielders can do. It's a big issue and it's not a coincidence that every team performing to a high level in Europe does.

 

[romufc]

Stop straw manning me. I didn’t quote stats from anyone as low as 50 in their progressive passing percentile ranking. The lowest is quoted was 62 (which is still better than most of their peers) but the majority of the ones I quoted were in the 70s, 80 and 90s. That puts them in the upper tiers of progressive passers, as well as in the upper tiers of pass completion stats.

Once again, you were the one that falsely claimed you cannot have high pass completion stats and progress play. That is just not true and I gave you a list of players with stats which proves that’s not true.

You not being able to understand basic football stats doesn’t change that.

I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.

 

[dubplate warrior]

I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.

The first person to bring up stats was you with Bruno though.

I don't think we need to have a player who does all three things, but we absolutely need midfielders who can do the latter two.

I've also said it numerous times but it seems to have gone unregistered, we really need a midfielder who can run with the ball.

 

[Zumbi]

I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.

You were the one that asked for the stats!

It was only when the stats contradicted your point that you suddenly became less interested in them.

And all you’ve done since then is dig holes and change goal posts.

 

[romufc]

The first person to bring up stats was you with Bruno though.

I don't think we need to have a player who does all three things, but we absolutely need midfielders who can do the latter two.

I've also said it numerous times but it seems to have gone unregistered, we really need a midfielder who can run with the ball.

We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?

 

[romufc]

You were the one that asked for the stats!

It was only when the stats contradicted your point that you suddenly became less interested in them.

And all you’ve done since then is dig holes and change goal posts.

yes, and I have also said Rodri is the special player, which is why he won the Ballon D'or, the only player with 90% pass accuracy and 90th percentile of progressive plays.

You seem to think that is the same as a player in 60th percentile. So its not moving goal posts, its just you not understanding.

 

[Zumbi]

yes, and I have also said Rodri is the special player, which is why he won the Ballon D'or, the only player with 90% pass accuracy and 90th percentile of progressive plays.

You seem to think that is the same as a player in 60th percentile. So its not moving goal posts, its just you not understanding.

He’s not the only player with those stats. Reread that list again.

Nonetheless, you’re still changing the goal posts because your original claim was not there weren’t players with 90% pass completion and be in the 90th percentile of progressive passes.

Your original claim was that you cannot have 90% pass completion and progress play. You made it seem like you have to choose one or the other.

That is not true. Players in the 60-90 percentile of progressive passes are very obviously progressing play. Because that’s what that stat is measuring.

The bottom line is that really good passers of the ball can both keep it simple and play for retention, but they can also be expansive and play progressive passes. And a player in that mould would enhance our midfield greatly.

 

[dubplate warrior]

We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?

What's up with you man, why are you fixated on one player and not on the actual point of what I'm trying to say? Bruno is a 6 due to a lack of options, not because that's where he is most effective.

Kobbie isn't a deep lying midfielder because that's not his game. It's nothing to do with not needing a central midfielder who can carry the ball and another midfielder who can reliably dictate tempo.

 

[romufc]

What's up with you man, why are you fixated on one player and not on the actual point of what I'm trying to say? Bruno is a 6 due to a lack of options, not because that's where he is most effective.

Kobbie isn't a deep lying midfielder because that's not his game. It's nothing to do with not needing a central midfielder who can carry the ball and another midfielder who can reliably dictate tempo.

The discussion started with Bruno though... thats why. If you are talking of profiles, I agree we need different profiles.

If you actually see how Amorim plays, he doesn't play a Deep lying playmaker as such... its different profiles for different managers. Where Ten Hag liked to play a deep lying playmaker.

Out of interest, if you don't see Kobbie as a CM, where do you think is his best position?

Its not true, because we have Collyer, Eriksen, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo as CM's and he choses to play Bruno and Casemiro/Ugarte

 

[Zumbi]

We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?

Can you please stop straw manning me? It’s dishonest.

I never said anything about Bruno, and I never said a player with 90% passing completion and in the 50th percentile of progressive carries is ideal. I have no idea where you pulled that from.

Bruno’s ability to progress play is invaluable to us, but our team would function better if we had another midfielder who was a good enough passer that they could improve our ball retention and help with progressing play. That’s it. It’s not a complicated point.

 

[dubplate warrior]

The discussion started with Bruno though... thats why. If you are talking of profiles, I agree we need different profiles.

If you actually see how Amorim plays, he doesn't play a Deep lying playmaker as such... its different profiles for different managers. Where Ten Hag liked to play a deep lying playmaker.

Out of interest, if you don't see Kobbie as a CM, where do you think is his best position?

Its not true, because we have Collyer, Eriksen, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo as CM's and he choses to play Bruno and Casemiro/Ugarte

I see him as a 10. He's always been an attacking player and he doesn't have the engine to get up and down the pitch the way Amorim needs him to. I'd like him to have more games there because he's a class player and has the kind of technical ability we lack, I do worry about his physicality though.

Bruno has a hell of an engine, is our captain and most productive player. He has to play, but that doesn't mean he is naturally a 6 or is what we need in that position in the long run. His gut instinct is never going to be to play the simple pass or control the game, that's not his fault, it's not his strength, he's also not a 10, at least in this system.

Eriksen and Collyer are not serious options to regularly start games. Mainoo simply isn't a central midfielder, it took Amorim a while to realise it but he did in the end. Casemiro has only begun to play regularly since we have changed the way we press.

 

[Cassidy]

I see him as a 10. He's always been an attacking player and he doesn't have the engine to get up and down the pitch the way Amorim needs him to. I'd like him to have more games there because he's a class player and has the kind of technical ability we lack, I do worry about his physicality though.

Bruno has a hell of an engine, is our captain and most productive player. He has to play, but that doesn't mean he is naturally a 6 or is what we need in that position in the long run. His gut instinct is never going to be to play the simple pass or control the game, that's not his fault, it's not his strength, he's also not a 10, at least in this system.

Eriksen and Collyer are not serious options to regularly start games. Mainoo simply isn't a central midfielder, it took Amorim a while to realise it but he did in the end. Casemiro has only begun to play regularly since we have changed the way we press.

A bit of poor form and an injury-ridden season and one of the most promising players of last season, and England setup at the Euros is now not even a central midfielder.

 

[dubplate warrior]

A bit of poor form and an injury-ridden season and one of the most promising players of last season, and England setup at the Euros is now not even a central midfielder.

I just don't think it suits his game. I think his best traits are in the final third.

I could be completely wrong, and I love him as a player, but he doesn't have the engine required and he also isn't really interested in defending. Let's avoid the square pegs in round holes thing.

 

[JediSith]

Those of you on here who are 'style of play experts'', can you see our style of play? If so what is it and is it what Amorim wants ?

Thanks.

3 furlongs into a 16 furlong race.
Some people can see the horse that’s last in the race will finish much higher up by the end of the race. Most other people just assume the horse that’s last is rubbish .

You’re welcome.

 

[DRJosh]

This thread seems to have moved on from discussing Amorim.

 

[Posh Red]

This thread seems to have moved on from discussing Amorim.

Also a lot quieter since there’s been a couple of half decent performances, but I guess that’s natural.

 

[CatsOfUlthar]

Who came up with the chant from the other day? I really liked it and especially credit to the fans who kept it going so long. (The "Turn the Reds Arouuuuund" one)

If there's a more appropriate thread feel free to zoom me along to it.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This thread seems to have moved on from discussing Amorim.

Just you wait until the international break ends, he’ll either the proclaimed the messiah or deadwood after the next game, then the next, and so on and so forth into eternity until he either wins things or is binned off.

 

[Remember the geese]

Who came up with the chant from the other day? I really liked it and especially credit to the fans who kept it going so long. (The "Turn the Reds Arouuuuund" one)

If there's a more appropriate thread feel free to zoom me along to it.

It's been going for a little while. I think Palace at home was the first time I'd heard it.

 

[Chipper]

Also a lot quieter since there’s been a couple of half decent performances, but I guess that’s natural.

Yes, not much to say. A couple of wins against teams we should really be beating. Leicester setting records for being in terrible form, Sociedad about where we are in the table but in Spain and they don't really have the strength in depth of the PL when it comes to spending power etc.

It's the disappointing losses/unexpected wins that will create the most discussion. Throw in international break now too.

 

[RuudTom83]

I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.

This makes such a difference to me in terms of actually liking the team, I see these young guys grafting (sometimes playing a bit shit but working hard nonetheless) and it makes you buy into their development and what 'could' be.

 

[DevilRed]

I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.

We've also benefited from a relatively easy schedule of late.

The upcoming fixtures are going to be telling.

I do hope we have turned the corner, but adopting a wait and see approach for now.

 

[Shark]

We've also benefited from a relatively easy schedule of late.

The upcoming fixtures are going to be telling.

I do hope we have turned the corner, but adopting a wait and see approach for now.

We've technically done better in the bigger games under Amorim so far, it's the smaller fish we needed to start frying, and we're at least showing progress there. Question is can he start beating the teams around mid table.

 

[romufc]

We've technically done better in the bigger games under Amorim so far, it's the smaller fish we needed to start frying, and we're at least showing progress there. Question is can he start beating the teams around mid table.

Yep, we struggle to play against teams that have a mid/low block at the moment because our build up is so pedestrian from the back.

We have had this issue for a while now, under Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim, we struggle to consistently beat teams that have a mid block, we end up conceding possession before it can reach the final third.

Personally, we need players that can keep the ball, receive the ball in tight spaces and keep it. I saw a passing network diagram where our most common pass is RCB to CB.. all within our own half whilst other teams have passing networks in the opposition half.

 

[Zumbi]

Yep, we struggle to play against teams that have a mid/low block at the moment because our build up is so pedestrian from the back.

We have had this issue for a while now, under Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim, we struggle to consistently beat teams that have a mid block, we end up conceding possession before it can reach the final third.

Personally, we need players that can keep the ball, receive the ball in tight spaces and keep it. I saw a passing network diagram where our most common pass is RCB to CB.. all within our own half whilst other teams have passing networks in the opposition half.

Yeah that passing network diagram was brutal.