Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

Marwood said:
I guess it comes down to how much do you think a manager can do. I've never bought into the idea they're these puppet masters that can instantly improve players. A players ability is what it is.

But I'd argue it is mainly about the strikers. If Hojlund, Garnacho and Zirkzee were scoring goals the whole situation would feel different. The midfielders, defenders and Amorim would all be thought of differently.

Problem is because the forwards aren't performing everything about the team and management is getting slated. Unfairly in my opinion.
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This makes sense.

However, the manager presumably agreed to loan out two attacking players and not bring in anyone to replace them and compete with two that are clearly under performing/low on confidence aswell.

Instead, choosing to spend what money we had to bring in a left wing back.

Now, clearly there's an argument it was the correct decision to loan out Antony and Rashford. However, given that one of them in Antony was still seen as good enough (at whatever low bar that is) to be a sub for some games in January, it all makes slightly less sense.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
The thing is, probably how he wants us to play is not that good way of playing in EPL.

People need to accept this might be true.

Again, last season under ETH we criticised him for 8th finish, not the players.

When we won at Etihad and drew at Anfield we gave Amorim his flowers, nobody said we have a elite team. We all said Amorim is turning the tide.
Now we are playing badly it's players fault.

Can't be when we play well it's coaching but when we play poorly it's players issues.
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Agreed. We need to look at lots of other teams where manager are improving them and playing different systems in the process. Palace often go 3 at the back, Potter brings a lot of tactical flexibility to West Ham, Moyes have got a limited Everton team doing much better. A top manager mixes pragmatism, tactical smarts and not just system inflexibility. Amorim has inherited the worst United squad in modern times for sure, but even RVN had them looking a more coherent team. if he needs a load more players for his system to work, whats the point of persevering with it with a load of players who apparently cant make it work? I have been critical of 3 at the back buts its coming back in vogue to some degree, but lesser teams are making it work. there is a question whether its better suited to the more defensively orientated bottom half teams.
 
Ted Lasso said:
We're 14th in the league, 34 points off the leaders.

What the actual feck is wrong with anyone thinking that the fecking Europa League is any sort of important right now. You want a fecking pass into the Champions League to get dumped out disgracefully once again with less fight than teams from Eastern Europe you've never even fecking heard of?

Urgh.
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You're having a laugh right?

The money from winning the Europa and what we would then get from participating in the CL next season would go a long way to redressing some of our short term financial issues and allow for better squad planning. Could be argued there is literally nothing more important than winning the Europa this season for that alone.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
This makes sense.

However, the manager presumably agreed to loan out two attacking players and not bring in anyone to replace them and compete with two that are clearly under performing/low on confidence aswell.

Instead, choosing to spend what money we had to bring in a left wing back.

Now, clearly there's an argument it was the correct decision to loan out Antony and Rashford. However, given that one of them in Antony was still seen as good enough (at whatever low bar that is) to be a sub for some games in January, it all makes slightly less sense.
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If it pays off in the summer, as in they're easier to sell because we loaned them out, who could argue?

Problem is we're all as fans entrenched in the here and now. The club are looking 6 months down the line.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
The thing is, probably how he wants us to play is not that good way of playing in EPL.

People need to accept this might be true.

Again, last season under ETH we criticised him for 8th finish, not the players.

When we won at Etihad and drew at Anfield we gave Amorim his flowers, nobody said we have a elite team. We all said Amorim is turning the tide.
Now we are playing badly it's players fault.

Can't be when we play well it's coaching but when we play poorly it's players issues.
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You were on this forum right last season? You didn't see any criticism of the players for how we performed? How?
 
Licha-Vidic said:
The thing is, probably how he wants us to play is not that good way of playing in EPL.

People need to accept this might be true.

Again, last season under ETH we criticised him for 8th finish, not the players.

When we won at Etihad and drew at Anfield we gave Amorim his flowers, nobody said we have a elite team. We all said Amorim is turning the tide.
Now we are playing badly it's players fault.

Can't be when we play well it's coaching but when we play poorly it's players issues.
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This is exactly it, fans believing and seeing only what they want to believe and see because we're desperate for him to succeed.
 
Shark said:
This is exactly it, fans believing and seeing only what they want to believe and see because we're desperate for him to succeed.
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I just wish this cult of personality nonsense would just end already. It's took a slight dent with ETH but any smooth talker can seemingly get some to immediately fall for it again.
 
This is some grade A bullsht. He must play the same system because if he doesn't then he will have to start again next year but at the same time he cant play his system because he doesn't have the players. Which is it? You cant have both. Is he training 4/5 players in the system so that in the next 2/3/4/5 seasons when he finally gets his players, then the players this season will teach them what to do? So we sacrifice everything even the basics like playing decent football and come 15th so a few can know what to next year? If he doesnt have the players then whats the point? And if it takes half a year to teach a few of them then how long to train new players? I was on board for sticking to a tactical structure but you have to make it work to some degree. To any degree. Yes it wont be perfect until you get the right players but you cant just give up everything and wait until its all perfect.
 
UpWithRivers said:
This is some grade A bullsht. He must play the same system because if he doesn't then he will have to start again next year but at the same time he cant play his system because he doesn't have the players. Which is it? You cant have both. Is he training 4/5 players in the system so that in the next 2/3/4/5 seasons when he finally gets his players, then the players this season will teach them what to do? So we sacrifice everything even the basics like playing decent football and come 15th so a few can know what to next year? If he doesnt have the players then whats the point? And if it takes half a year to teach a few of them then how long to train new players? I was on board for sticking to a tactical structure but you have to make it work to some degree. To any degree. Yes it wont be perfect until you get the right players but you cant just give up everything and wait until its all perfect.
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But when David Moyes can come in mid season and get Dyche's team to play the way he wants without his players (unless you count Pickford or Coleman?) within a week or two, why does every manager we get in need three years?
 
The Mitcher said:
I just wish this cult of personality nonsense would just end already. It's took a slight dent with ETH but any smooth talker can seemingly get some to immediately fall for it again.
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Me too. None of us actually want to start all over again with another coach, it's becoming as equally tiresome as it did seeing Rashford stroll about the pitch, feel's like groundhog day. However we mustn't be blinded by desperation, because if this time next season we're in a situation where we've written off yet another because we spent another fortune on a manager with imposter syndrome, we're even more screwed then we are now.
 
Shark said:
Me too. None of us actually want to start all over again with another coach, it's becoming as equally tiresome as it did seeing Rashford stroll about the pitch. However we mustn't be blinded by desperation because of this time next season we're in a situation where we've written off yet another because we spent another fortune on a manager with imposter syndrome, we're even more screwed then we are now.
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This also needs to end. This is football, 99% of clubs will go through many managers in three or four year cycles. Hell even shorter. It's pointless waiting for a Simeone or Fergie, they are not the norm. But that aside, yes, we need to treat managers with the same scepticism as the players. The club is the club and no one is bigger than it, not even the head coach.
 
The last two posts summarise the hysterical nature of this thread right now. Two wild claims that no one has made especially not the manager or club.

No one has ever said it'll take 3 seasons to show progress or worse the one above says 5 years. You all get angry at your own made up bullshit :lol:
 
Having watched the champions league game last night, not one of our players would get anywhere near PSG’s team, nor Liverpools. Thats not on the manager, its on years of terrible recruitment.
 
Smores said:
The last two posts summarise the hysterical nature of this thread right now. Two wild claims that no one has made especially not the manager or club.

No one has ever said it'll take 3 seasons to show progress or worse the one above says 5 years. You all get angry at your own made up bullshit :lol:
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That's literally what is constantly used, time. Time, money and players. It's got take a long time, months, maybe years and we have to replace the entire team. if you deny people saying that you're disengenuous.
 
The Mitcher said:
This also needs to end. This is football, 99% of clubs will go through many managers in three or four year cycles. Hell even shorter. It's pointless waiting for a Simeone or Fergie, they are not the norm. But that aside, yes, we need to treat managers with the same scepticism as the players. The club is the club and no one is bigger than it, not even the head coach.
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Other clubs can do so because they have other elements of continuity. We may have since INEOS but we can't know at this point and firing the DOF probably isn't the greatest sign. You are all right, blind faith is not what we should go for but we also shouldn't fuel the discussions around the current manager and when he is going to fly. It isn't helping the situation. Nobody here wants the club to give Amorim a blanco cheque to do whatever it takes to make his system work. And right now, there are no indicators, that we will do so. On the contrary, when you looked at the Quenda thread, there are more than enough fans in there who want him even though his case should definitely ring the alarm bells if this is what you guys are worried about (I am too, btw).
 
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It will take a few more years to undo the transfer mistakes from the past, but the goal should be to have us able challenge for the title, not for a place in the top 8.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
 
The Mitcher said:
But when David Moyes can come in mid season and get Dyche's team to play the way he wants without his players (unless you count Pickford or Coleman?) within a week or two, why does every manager we get in need three years?
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But this is the problem with knee jerking to every short term uptick or downtick in form. Trying to draw some large meaning from just a few games.

Everton have had a few decent results. It's football, it happens. But that must mean Amorim isn't doing his job properly? There's no logic there.
 
The Mitcher said:
But when David Moyes can come in mid season and get Dyche's team to play the way he wants without his players (unless you count Pickford or Coleman?) within a week or two, why does every manager we get in need three years?
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One issue is whether or not a squad is underperforming or if there are deeper problems, for instance West Ham, Southampton and Leicester have not really seen much if any bounce probably because there is an underlying lack of quality within the squad

Arguably Everton had under used potential in their squad and Dyche was playing extremely negative football

With Utd I think there is an underlying lack of quality in the final 3rd and physicality throughout the team, that is not going to change with any manager, where I would be slightly critical is the under use of youth players instead of players like Casemiro, Eriksen and Lindelof, or even players like Hojlund and Dalot experiencing poor form.
 
Zed 101 said:
One issue is whether or not a squad is underperforming or if there are deeper problems, for instance West Ham, Southampton and Leicester have not really seen much if any bounce probably because there is an underlying lack of quality within the squad

Arguably Everton had under used potential in their squad and Dyche was playing extremely negative football

With Utd I think there is an underlying lack of quality in the final 3rd and physicality throughout the team, that is not going to change with any manager, where I would be slightly critical is the under use of youth players instead of players like Casemiro, Eriksen and Lindelof, or even players like Hojlund and Dalot experiencing poor form.
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And none of these teams hired particularly good head coaches.
 
NLunited said:
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It will take a few more years to undo the transfer mistakes from the past, but the goal should be to have us able challenge for the title, not for a place in the top 8.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Zed 101 said:
One issue is whether or not a squad is underperforming or if there are deeper problems, for instance West Ham, Southampton and Leicester have not really seen much if any bounce probably because there is an underlying lack of quality within the squad

Arguably Everton had under used potential in their squad and Dyche was playing extremely negative football

With Utd I think there is an underlying lack of quality in the final 3rd and physicality throughout the team, that is not going to change with any manager, where I would be slightly critical is the under use of youth players instead of players like Casemiro, Eriksen and Lindelof, or even players like Hojlund and Dalot experiencing poor form.
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So how comes we can achieve a very good performance at Anfield with this same squad and players. We know and accept Anfield is the ultimate test for any United team.
How comes we win at Etihad for the first time since Ole reign using this same squad which has no quality? Explain this please...

Was it players in all other games were we played poorly and Amorim brilliance at Anfield & Etihad? Which is which?
 
NLunited said:
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It will take a few more years to undo the transfer mistakes from the past, but the goal should be to have us able challenge for the title, not for a place in the top 8.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
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4th - 8th Finish Squad?

Our forward line isn't even top 10 before we loaned Rashford & Antony who offer the square root of F all.

All better Front 3s:

Liverpool - Diaz - Jota - Salah
Arsenal - Martinelli - Havertz - Saka
Forest - Hudson Odoi - Wood - Elanga
City - Doku - Haaland - Savinho
Chelsea - Neto - Jackson - Palmer
Newcastle - Gordon - Isak - Murphy
Bournemouth - Semenyo - Outtara - Tavernier
Brighton - Mitoma - Pedro - Minteh
Villa - Malen - Watkins - Bailey
Brentford - Schade - Wissa - Mbuemo
Palace - Eze - Mateta - Sarr
Spurs - Son - Solanke - Johnson
West Ham - Bowen - Kudus - Only 2 due to formation change but both walk into this team.

I didn't include Fulham, as I don't see there overall quality as much better than ours, they work more collectively.

There are also multiple players from even the relegation teams that improve us, yes Amorim should be doing better but lets not kid ourselves how crap our forwards are, haven't even gone into midfield or defence.
 
Ted Lasso said:
We're 14th in the league, 34 points off the leaders.

What the actual feck is wrong with anyone thinking that the fecking Europa League is any sort of important right now. You want a fecking pass into the Champions League to get dumped out disgracefully once again with less fight than teams from Eastern Europe you've never even fecking heard of?

Urgh.
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Breathe mate. Bloody 'ell.
 
NLunited said:
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It will take a few more years to undo the transfer mistakes from the past, but the goal should be to have us able challenge for the title, not for a place in the top 8.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
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In which league?
 
Licha-Vidic said:
So how comes we can achieve a very good performance at Anfield with this same squad and players. We know and accept Anfield is the ultimate test for any United team.
How comes we win at Etihad for the first time since Ole reign using this same squad which has no quality? Explain this please...

Was it players in all other games were we played poorly and Amorim brilliance at Anfield & Etihad? Which is which?
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No no, that's not his this works. Good results are down to Amorim, bad results to the squad
 
NLunited said:
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It will take a few more years to undo the transfer mistakes from the past, but the goal should be to have us able challenge for the title, not for a place in the top 8.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
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It really, really isn't. You don't make top 8 with no striker of PL quality, a goalkeeper that consistently drops clangers, and one midfielder fit for purpose.
 
Marwood said:
You were on this forum right last season? You didn't see any criticism of the players for how we performed? How?
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So in your opinion, who should have been applauded for our FA Cup win of last season? Answer me that..

If its players to be applauded then, they cant be they have turned so shit to relegation form in 8 months.

If its ETH, then why was he sacked to get a manager who can't win the same FA Cup or even reach the final. Which ETH did in succession by the way.

As you can see its a combination of both. Good players 'manufacture' good managers, and good managers make good players.

Liverpool players have 'made' Slot a very good manager if he wins the EPL. If Slot was in Netherlands we wouldn't have known if he would won a EPL title and he wouldn't be in any conversation.
And Slot has made Liverpool players to be very good players above everyone else in EPL thats why they will be the players with EPL medal.
 
NLunited said:
The dominant narrative last season was that Ten Hag was to blame, this season it is that the players aren‘t good enough.

The big difference between Ten Hag last season and Amorim this season, was that Ten Hag was able to win games despite a crippling injury crisis.

The squad is easily good enough for 4th-8th place and both managers this season have underperformed.

It is truly amazing how the goalposts have shifted between this season and last season. In my opinion, the squad is stronger.
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No, the dominant narrative last season was that Hag had 2 full seasons, spent £450m in his first 2 summer windows, was going backwards tactically since halfway through season 1, and made the squad worse with almost every signing.

The dominant narrative this season is the squad is shite, because it is. If you think it's stronger than last season/worthy of top 8, with the changes in personnel and the current injuries, then you are wildly deluded. Of course anyone who's read the ETH or Amorim threads already knows that.
 
hellhunter said:
No no, that's not his this works. Good results are down to Amorim, bad results to the squad
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Modern Man United fan mind.

I think we should be studied as a social experiment for how a football team makes one think.
 
Mike Smalling said:
It really, really isn't. You don't make top 8 with no striker of PL quality, a goalkeeper that consistently drops clangers, and one midfielder fit for purpose.
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I mean kind of ... but United finished 8th last season, with this goalkeeper, with Hojlund, with Rashford and Antony having poor seasons, and so forth.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I mean kind of ... but United finished 8th last season, with this goalkeeper, with Hojlund, with Rashford and Antony having poor seasons, and so forth.
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And McTominay netting us 10 points on his own with his last minute goals. And Hojlund and Garnacho scoring 17 league goals between them instead of the 5 they've managed this season. Without these goal contributions the squad is relegation level.

But this has only been pointed out about 500 times already and still cant seem to break through the brain rot in this thread.
 
hobbers said:
No, the dominant narrative last season was that Hag had 2 full seasons, spent £450m in his first 2 summer windows, was going backwards tactically since halfway through season 1, and made the squad worse with almost every signing.

The dominant narrative this season is the squad is shite, because it is. If you think it's stronger than last season/worthy of top 8, with the changes in personnel and the current injuries, then you are wildly deluded. Of course anyone who's read the ETH or Amorim threads already knows that.
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So again, i ask....

So this poor squad, of low quality with zero performers was able to win at Etihad and get a draw at Anfield. For the first time in over 4 years in one season we were able to get 4 points at Anfield & Etihad ( Jan 2021 (draw against Liverpool)& March ( 2-0 win at Etihad- 2021)

So the question is, how comes we can get such results with very good performances from those away games with this squad, while we wouldn't with previous strong squad in last 4 years?

So was it Amorim brilliance or Players brilliance we got good results against City and Liverpool?

If its Amorim brilliance why cant he replicate those performances in all other games.

If its players, then Amorim has never showed anything for us. Because bar those City & Liverpool games we haven't played very good anywhere else.

In short, you can not cherry-pick good performances to be Amorim factor and bad performances to be squad failures...
 
hobbers said:
And Hojlund and Garnacho scoring 17 league goals between them instead of the 5 they've managed this season.
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This seems an issue of semantics.

When I think of squad quality, I am thinking of some inherent qualities and base levels. The individual's performance over the course of a season is something separate: form. The distinction is important because quality is separate from the manager's ability, whereas form isn't.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I mean kind of ... but United finished 8th last season, with this goalkeeper, with Hojlund, with Rashford and Antony having poor seasons, and so forth.
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True. We managed to squeeze out a lot of narrow and late wins last season, which just isn't happening now. If I'm not mistaken we overperformed our xG results last season, and are underperforming now.

Still, knowing the quality of the league this year, I would bet against any manager getting top 8 with this group of players, if we were to start over again. I feel like so many teams that have previously been considered midtable have genuine quality now. Newcastle, Forest, Bournemouth, Villa, and even Brentford and Palace to some extent are pretty good now.
 
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