And that's exactly what we're doing/have already done.
And mostly why they end up failing.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
If this is the case the system doesn't work and should be abandoned
Remains to be seen if that's actually the case. The club leadership made all the right noises when they came in last season about the importance of a "game model", but the jury is still out on whether they stuck to that idea or they're just making it up as they go.
I dont really care if we finish 15th. If we can make it through Europa great, if not just stick with it. He hasn't had a chance to show what he can do with a pre-season and some club signings.
You have the likes of Lindelof, Eriksen, Casemiro, Dalot, Hojlund, Zirkzee and Ganracho all in receipt of the fact that they're either 1) leaving, 2) not wanted or 3) going to be a squad player at best. It's near impossible to motivate them to turn up for games as the season progresses - there's a reason he didn't want to join half way through.
He probably agreed to come under the condition of brutal honesty of how he'll operate. The CB options are the only positive he has right now, every other position can be upgraded. He needs time.
You have the likes of Lindelof, Eriksen, Casemiro, Dalot, Hojlund, Zirkzee and Ganracho all in receipt of the fact that they're either 1) leaving, 2) not wanted or 3) going to be a squad player at best. It's near impossible to motivate them to turn up for games as the season progresses - there's a reason he didn't want to join half way through.
He probably agreed to come under the condition of brutal honesty of how he'll operate. The CB options are the only positive he has right now, every other position can be upgraded. He needs time.
I'd larely agree with that mate. Lots who don't though.
To be fair I haven't said we should sack him. I'm of the opinion that I'd like to see where we are after a pre-season and a transfer window.
Indeed, but that's where we are. The idea that bringing in a manager that compliments our current squad is a crazy thought for some it seems.
No, no. I know for a fact that a manager of Allegri's standing isn't going to sign up to manage any club on a 3 month interim deal. Christ even Rangnick only agreed to it on the basis of a 2 year consultancy gig after his 8 month interim period. All our other interims were ex-United players with poor/no managerial careers for a reason.
I also know for a fact that Zidane will never manage us, because he's been out of management through what, 3 or 4 United sackings? And has never shown any interest even back when we were far more competitive and not run by Ineos.
Meanwhile Alonso has already turned down Liverpool, so why the feck would he agree to come and be the next 3-at-the-back-prefering foreign-manager-with-limited-experience to be crucified by hordes of idiots while managing United? Same applies to Inzaghi.
So the path to success for clubs is to search for and bring in a manager that is the complete antithesis to their current squad?
They let poor Wilf down as well let's not forget and threw Tommy Doc under the bus.
And who tells you that we will manage to win the thing with Allegri? There are no guarantess. I don't know for sure but this sounds exactly like the kind of mindset, the club should get rid of as soon as possible "we are Manchester United, we have some divine right to win stuff". The EL isn't some free ride, we are 14th not because of a blip, it is because we suck at multiple key aspects of modern football. No manager will take care of that in such a short time.
I agree. Thats the textbook. I think, the level should be debatable though, in the sense that the DOF (or whoever) isn't dictating everything, just the key principles, transfer strategy and short and midterm goals.
Thats great but this isn't helping. SAF and Ancelotti do great jobs with great teams. We don't have a great team where we'd could use an Ancelotti type coach who will get us over the line of finally winning stuff. Just look around, system coaches are everywhere. And one of the reason is that systems allow groups of players to achieve things that they wouldn't achieve as individuals. Obviously thats a lot to do with recruitment but not just that. If you know exactly, what kind of capabilities for example your left wingback needs you arent just boxed into thoughts like "who is the best playing this position" or "who might be the best talent in this position" but you can make use of performance data to see, which players cover enough room, make enough passes, enough successful takeons and so on.
To some degree I can understand people trying to move away from complexity in those regards but all our rivals apply such approaches and when we do not, we will always be at a disadvantage.
We agree on the overall approach but I think, the bolded part is a sign of the wrong mindset. Thinking we are only a few good players short of "clicking" is what got us into this mess. Varane, Ronaldo, Varane, Antony, Sancho were bought based on this exact mindset. We have to move away from "good" and "bad" as the only ways to distinguish whether somebody is a good fit or isn't. Right now - most of our opponents are working harder, seem stronger than most of our players, show more football intelligence, show more willingness to handle the ball. Adding players that help with that can of course help the overall picture but it isn't just that, we have to integrate collective principles. We have to improve our level of organisation. Thats not just automatically done "by adding the right players".
I feel such an approach will always end up as some sort of bandaid. It may even work for half a season but then a key player is out and stuff is back to square one. There is no shortcut. The available players HAVE TO improve AND we have to bring in suitable players. And given that we are playing in the highest league, not even that will guarantee anything from the start because all teams are doing those things.
If I knew for certain he could bring in 8 players that he wants in the summer I would say give him next season but I suspect that 80% of his starting XI's next season will be players that were there before he arrived & they'll continue to play crap under him.
I would be more confident of wining the Europa League with ETH. At least he would change tactics to get us over the line like in the FA cup final.
Amiron has already thrown in the towel. That's what is most frustrating.
Amiron has already thrown in the towel. That's what is most frustrating.
I suspect you are 100% correct.
We can all see the squad is not upto scratch yet half of our fan base is wanting RA out !! The guy has been dealt an utter bum hand. We are shit in both boxes
80% of our fans were ready for chasing Rashford down the M6 or across the Manchester Airport at the first opportunity and that's before Amorim stepped through the door. And despite the media narrative, he really isnt ripping up tree's at Villa.
Literally no player we have bought in the last four or five years has been upto the demands of the Premier League. Very little pace, strength, mental fortitude or leadership qualities.
Sancho - Terrible Over priced buy, absolutely weak in the head as they come and disruptive
Anthony - Just not upto the Premier League
Mason Mount - As much as I would like it to work out he's another dud
Casemiro - Real Madrid don't let many players go before they hit their prime or in their prime, yet the mugs in charge would have you believe we could do things in the transfer market no other club could. Bang on the money for all the wrong reasons.
Onana - living off the scraps of a decent Champions League final. Never consistent enough to be a goalie for a top 4 side.
Donny Van Debeek
Malacia
You wont get much change out of £300m right there and the list goes on. When you join the dots, the issue is firmly at the foot of recruitment. We HAVE to loan out some of the dross because we should never have signed them in the first place. A new manager might get some slight bump in performance and what get us top 10, maybe ? Id rather stick with Amorim if that's the case and at least work with our new recruitment team to get some runners in the side
When we buy a player with Pace e.g. Yoro, we are ready for writing off a 19 year old as a complete waste of money
I think it's completely true to say every manager deserves at least one summer window before judging. And it's also true that amorim is falling short of a fairly low bar that fans would have found understandable. We weren't asking for top 4 and an overnight transformation, but what were seeing is really abysmal to be perfectly honest.
I would still absolutely give him a window
I would still absolutely give him a window
That's because people don't think, they hear a nice claim by a pundit and run with it. In reality this concept can only be successful if the club picked the correct long term manager and always pick the right players in the transfer market. An other thing what happens if the club does well and the manager joins a bigger club? Do you force a rebuild or do you pick a manager that fits your players?
And finally how many clubs have the means to do that, repeatedly?
Clearly, things are not working out for him, but it's very difficult to judge him because:
- He inherited a team that is not suited to his style.
- The last managers failed when trying to implement different styles.
One thing he definitely needs to do is stop giving the media so much bloody ammunition. A Manchester United manager saying things like worst team in our history and he’d rather play the GK coach over the darling of Manchester is a fecking jackpot for them. Be honest and upfront behind closed doors.
I can see why some players would be pissed off about that. I know that people gonna say they need to suck it up and all that but let’s not act like fallings out haven’t cost us even in the good times.
I can see why some players would be pissed off about that. I know that people gonna say they need to suck it up and all that but let’s not act like fallings out haven’t cost us even in the good times.
Putting the work into the formation this season + additions in the summer. From the things Amorim says he seems fully aware of our flaws and I think he knows what needs to be done and what type of profile of players we need to fix it.
If a month or so into next season and everyone still looks clueless then it's time to re-evaluate.
I agree 100%, it's naive on his part to be so open with the British press. Hopefully he'll soon realize they aren't his friends and they aren't on his side.
Quite. That was supposedly the whole point of appointing a director of football, who was promptly shown the door before actually having the opportunity to assess how the team would be playing, going forward, and identifying a suitable manager.
It's beginning to look like another expensive error.
I'm not going to pretend that I knew much about Amorim before he was appointed, but I was cautiously optimistic. I'm now wondering if we would have fared any worse by giving the gig to McKenna or Carrick.
Very few if any.
The whole idea is silly, but some are fixated on player power and mass clear outs.
No, the board need to agree a style of play, bring in a manager that plays that style and let them mould the squad.So the path to success for clubs is to search for and bring in a manager that is the complete antithesis to their current squad?
I like Amorim and want him to be a success.
My real worry though is that that a lot of our attacking players don’t fit his system. Our traditionally wide players don’t seem to fit in his two 10 positions aren’t suited to playing as wing backs.
Similarly, our 10’s don’t fit those positions as they’re not really a 10 position as in a 4-2-3-1 but more a half way house between a 10 and a winger.
Maybe if he gets the wing backs he needs, the 10’s he needs and a decent striker, with a full pre season he could be great.
But what if he isn’t? What if we’re in 10th at Christmas and he’s been sacked?
Not many managers play with his system and if, like most, they play with a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 we’ll have alienated and sold players perfect for those systems in favour of specific players for Amorim that now don’t fit that system.
It’s apparently why Liverpool turned him down as they couldn’t get past his stubbornness about his system. They went with Slot who plays the same system as Klopp so the players slotted right in.
My real worry though is that that a lot of our attacking players don’t fit his system. Our traditionally wide players don’t seem to fit in his two 10 positions aren’t suited to playing as wing backs.
Similarly, our 10’s don’t fit those positions as they’re not really a 10 position as in a 4-2-3-1 but more a half way house between a 10 and a winger.
Maybe if he gets the wing backs he needs, the 10’s he needs and a decent striker, with a full pre season he could be great.
But what if he isn’t? What if we’re in 10th at Christmas and he’s been sacked?
Not many managers play with his system and if, like most, they play with a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 we’ll have alienated and sold players perfect for those systems in favour of specific players for Amorim that now don’t fit that system.
It’s apparently why Liverpool turned him down as they couldn’t get past his stubbornness about his system. They went with Slot who plays the same system as Klopp so the players slotted right in.
In well run clubs it usually isn't the manager that gets to do that though.
I think the back 5 has become a self perpetuating thing- he didn’t being cautious while he got to know the squad but results have been so lousy that everybody is overly defensively minded in the pursuit of a bloody win. I agree at some point he is going to have to twist rather than stick and try more attacking players in the WB role.
I think most fans just want to win and be entertained, so with results the way they have been, especially on top of our rubbish performances I think patience is generally in short supply. I don’t think it would make a great deal of difference if he chucked Garnacho in at WB for example, but there again I think Nacho is too offensive and lightweight to be any use in the position anyway so the coach is stuck between a rock and a hard place anyway. Fans would just moan about players out of position.
This seems really straightforward to me. Has Ineos decided that 5-2-2-1 is the best formation for us to use going forwards? If so, then it seems a sensible approach to start with Amorim and they will need the next manager to follow the same philosophy and we will gradually build players to fit it. However, if that’s their plan, why are the other age group teams not adopting the same system?
If the reality is that we could easily be returning to 4-2-3-1 after this experiment then that’s more concerning.
I actually like Amorim and hope he’ll turn it around next season but all this talk of joining half way through the season etc etc needs to stop. He’s had ample time now to get them playing better, I’m not expecting world class performances but a few continuously improving ones should be expected.
The injuries are the bigger issue and this is the reason I’m hoping why we haven’t seen much, if any progress since he came in. He knows he’s not getting them playing well enough, with a few specific additions in the summer I’m expecting much better performances from week one of next season.
Can’t help but think you’ve missed the point of my post. The discussion has become buy a new team vs hire a new manager and I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Amorim should be pragmatic enough to adapt to his players of course, but also a few who suit his system will make his life easier!
Eh, no?
They bring in the best manager available and then try and build the best possible squad for him. Obviously hoping that this doesn’t require a massive overhaul. Although that’s entirely dependent on the quality of the existing squad (which is where we fall horribly short). That is what the majority of clubs do the majority of the the time.
At this stage he isn’t even asking for NEW players, he is just asking for the players that have left (leaving) to be replaced.
You can’t take Rashford, Sancho, Antony…Casemiro, Shaw, Mount out of the squad and just expect the team to continue with a few lads from the academy making up the numbers.
Whoever is the manager is will still point out the squad is very thin, unless the Cafe have a manager in mind, who can work with a squad of 12 senior players who haven’t finished in the Top 4 for 2 years, and get them challenging for the league in under 6 months!
You can’t take Rashford, Sancho, Antony…Casemiro, Shaw, Mount out of the squad and just expect the team to continue with a few lads from the academy making up the numbers.
Whoever is the manager is will still point out the squad is very thin, unless the Cafe have a manager in mind, who can work with a squad of 12 senior players who haven’t finished in the Top 4 for 2 years, and get them challenging for the league in under 6 months!
So in your opinion the majority of clubs just go for the best manager available at the time they need one and his suitability to their current squad isn't much of a consideration?
To be honest that sounds like pretty much what United done post SAF (well post Moyes anyway) as oposed to what most clubs do. I can't say I agree to be honest, most clubs tend to favour managers with not too dissimilar play styles to their previous manager. Unless of course they are aiming for a major style shift.
This much is obvious. Amorim is having to manage a club mid season onwards with a group of players bought by the previous manager for a completely different system and general approach to the game. On top of that, he has had to grapple with not having a proper #9 who can reliably and consistently score goals, problems with Rashford, and a massive slew of injuries. The trick for this summer will be to get everyone healthy and buy a striker, CM and WB, all the while getting rid of about 5-6 players.
Ten Hag was poor yet he was immune from criticism from a huge section of our fanbase. And now Amorim is getting the same soft treatment.
As you wrote, we’re not asking for a top 4 place but he needs to show some improvement.
Except literally no one is saying that or expecting it. There is however a massive difference between challenging for the league and being in 17th place in the form table. Which is exactly where we are since Amorim took over. If this form carries on there’s a good chance the only reason we’re not going to be in a serious relegation battle is because of the points ETH picked up. Which is absolutely insane. It’s indefensible for a United manager to be that bad. 17th. Just let that sink in for a while.
I truly thought after ETH the cult of the manager would finally be over. But apparently not. It’s absolutely bizarre.
Other managers have taken over team weaker than United (Moyes, Potter) and get a bounce. Do we need a complete squad turnover before Amorim rolls up his sleeves and gets to work?
I'm pretty sure everyone will wade in if in November we're still struggling after he's added 3-4 players to the full squad.
Even SAF would be struggling with the worst keeper and striker in the league
I wished Amorim had been a success but what worries me about this guy is that he clearly has had time now with players to get his plan across. We were told he wasn't getting time on the training pitch to get his tactics into the players etc
Somehow we are looking worse. Other managers have worked his tactics out and how to play around, through and over him.
This blind stubbornness to play one formation will be his downfall. What happens if he makes it through another year or two and some key players get injured?
Somehow we are looking worse. Other managers have worked his tactics out and how to play around, through and over him.
This blind stubbornness to play one formation will be his downfall. What happens if he makes it through another year or two and some key players get injured?
Not at big clubs they didn't. In fact, Moyes and Potter both flopped at United and Chelsea respectively, and neither took over mid season without the benefit of a summer of transfers and full training regimen to prepare their squads. Nor did they have to deal with this many prominent injuries, nor the absence of any viable strikers.
The answer to your second question is obviously yes. No one thought it was going to happen with only half a season and with Ten Hag's transfers.
It’s clear this season was a right off the moment we brought Amorim in when we did quickly followed by the Ashworth fiasco. Now the club needs to support him this summer. It’s hard after the season he’s had so far but it’s been an utter shit show of a failed squad to walk into.
I could see a world next season where 4 or 5 of the currently injured players are back in his first XI in addition to 5 or 6 new signings in the mould of Dorgu, i.e. young, athletic, not big names as such, and built & trained for this system. It could almost look and feel like a new XI if the summer went to plan and we ever get some luck with injuries to key players. It also wouldn’t surprise me if we sold all the lads currently out on loan plus Garnacho and maybe one more asset like a Zirzkee to fund it all. Looks like we’re going to have to raise funds to buy.
Once all that has happened, let’s see where we’re at by November/December time before even contemplating getting rid of him. I believe he’s a very good coach given the tools, backing and time.
I could see a world next season where 4 or 5 of the currently injured players are back in his first XI in addition to 5 or 6 new signings in the mould of Dorgu, i.e. young, athletic, not big names as such, and built & trained for this system. It could almost look and feel like a new XI if the summer went to plan and we ever get some luck with injuries to key players. It also wouldn’t surprise me if we sold all the lads currently out on loan plus Garnacho and maybe one more asset like a Zirzkee to fund it all. Looks like we’re going to have to raise funds to buy.
Once all that has happened, let’s see where we’re at by November/December time before even contemplating getting rid of him. I believe he’s a very good coach given the tools, backing and time.