Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Doracle]

That screenshot isn't representative of the work wing backs have to do. Mitchell, Robinson, Kerkez etc, all the best attacking full/wing backs in the league, have insane work rates.

Garnacho wouldn't work hard enough to cover the left flank, and we'd be constantly exposed. Also, because of his limited talent, he's terrible at carrying the ball long distances, especially on the touchline. The only place Garnacho ever positively effects games is cutting in from close to the box.

I seem to remember stats which showed Garnacho covered far more ground than Antony in a 90 minute match and my impression of him is that one of his key attributes is that he never stops running. There’s possible questions about his defensive commitment but I don’t really recall Amad doing much defending when he plays at wing back either.

This is also the first time I’ve seen it suggested that a wingback needs to be more skilful than an outright winger. The key benefit of playing there is you often pick it up in more space and can drive forwards without having to have perfect close control - something Garnacho is well suited for.

Ultimately, we don’t know why Amorim isn’t trying him there, save that he does seem to prefer using defenders there. It would certainly be interesting to see at least in the odd home match against weaker teams.

 

[pocco]

Our squad obviously isn't up to scratch, but what makes you so certain Amorim is good enough to manage Manchester United? Two things can be true at the same time, creating the mess we're currently in.

I don’t know if he’s good enough to manage us to a title, but I’d like to see how we look when his ideas are actually being carried out on the pitch. I’d feel short changed if he’s gone before we even see that. I think he needs signings in RWB, ST and maybe a new 10 or very good CM who is better on the ball. So 3 players and more of our current players fit and I’ll see how it goes then.

I just think that, if we sack him, we’ll be back to square one with a new coach and new ideas, and we’ll probably be having the same conversations again next season. Even if we brought in a coach who plays 4231, as we looked poor earlier this season in that system anyway. And the biggest issue will still be there - zero attacking threat and goal scoring ability. No manager can overcome having to navigate the PL with this attack.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I don’t know if he’s good enough to manage us to a title, but I’d like to see how we look when his ideas are actually being carried out on the pitch. I’d feel short changed if he’s gone before we even see that. I think he needs signings in RWB, ST and maybe a new 10 or very good CM who is better on the ball. So 3 players and more of our current players fit and I’ll see how it goes then.

I just think that, if we sack him, we’ll be back to square one with a new coach and new ideas, and we’ll probably be having the same conversations again next season. Even if we brought in a coach who plays 4231, as we looked poor earlier this season in that system anyway. And the biggest issue will still be there - zero attacking threat and goal scoring ability. No manager can overcome having to navigate the PL with this attack.

That’s exactly it. There’s no use in sacking him to just remain in the same vicious cycle.

 

[JPRouve]

I think the level and the intensity of the PL has scared the manager from playing wingers in wingback positions. Amad’s the only one he’s done and his general preference since joining has been to play fullbacks there.

I would say that it's more a lack of tactical nous and to be fair a lack of central midfielders. When you use wingers in a 343 it's generally not by playing a 3241 but playing in 31213 or 3133. Famous examples of it are Cruijff's Barcelona and LVG's Ajax in 1995.

At full strength United could easily setup like that:

--------------------Zirkzee
-Garnacho-----------------Amad
---------------------Bruno
---------Mainoo---------Ugarte
-------------------Martinez
-------Shaw-De Ligt--Yoro

In that case the defensive key is that your primary defensive pairing on the wings are Mainoo/Shaw and Ugarte/Yoro with extra help from the wingers in some cases. These kind of setups are in theory as solid as any but they are more difficult to grasp for certain players, for example you don't want your DM to abandon his central area, he can drop in central defense but he can't go from touchline to touchline carelessly because packing the central midfield is key. The other benefit of this is that it's easy to move to a traditional 433.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I’d sack him if we go out in Europe next week. He needs a good run here to save his job. Minimum semi finals for me.

 

[JPRouve]

If we look at the 22 rebuild as you mentioned, that similar level of upheaval meant we had to make 5 major signings for £220m - Case, Eriksen, Martinez, Antony, Malacia - and also that season loaned Dubravka/Butland, Weghorst and Sabitzer.

And ultimately botching that rebuild was why we transitioned from a top four-ish squad to a bottom-half squad.

That and the poor coaching. But yes, my point was that a potential rebuilt isn't and wouldn't be the biggest in club history. Also the fact that botched the last rebuilt should make people particularly aware of how important the head coach ability to get the best out of most players is important, you can't rely on the transfer market.

 

[stevoc]

I'd really like the senior management to make a statement that no matter what, Amorim will be in charge at the end of next season, no matter what, and if you don't like it, poke it up your hole.

Be worth it to see all the snow flakes on here in tears

How do you know they even think that?

And why would they publicly paint themselves into a corner in such a manner?

No manager should have that type of guarantee bar special cases like Ferguson or Pep at City.

 

[madzo2007]

Bring in someone like Allegri until tbe end of the season, we are now at the point where the Europa League is our last hope of qualifying for Europe and being able to spend in the summer so we need be doing whatever we can to give us the best chance of winning it including replacing the manager.

Don't forget we would also have to pay off Amorim if we sack him and all his coaches. That would have an effect on the summer budget too and PSR.

Theoretically if Allegri came to the end of the season, who replaces him in the summer then??

 

[Teja]

I would say that it's more a lack of tactical nous and to be fair a lack of central midfielders. When you use wingers in a 343 it's generally not by playing a 3241 but playing in 31213 or 3133. Famous examples of it are Cruijff's Barcelona and LVG's Ajax in 1995.

Curious what your take is on ideal role profiles for 5 ATB setups and for Amorim's 343 specifically. I wanted to make a thread profiling the CM role in a "typical" back three system. "typical" in quotes because there is really no such thing and player availability, club strength and coaching preferences all influence the setup. I planned to look at CM specifically but that got me thinking about the whole team in general.

I wanted to look at modern coaches (Conte, Tuchel, Alonso, Inzaghi) because I'm not really familiar with the Cryuffs / early Van Gaal and come up with general positional demands and identify where we're playing square pegs in round holes. Some thoughts initially:

CCB - We're fine with De Ligt / Maguire
RCB - Fine with Yoro / Maz
LCB - A Shaw type player would be nice, Martinez isn't the ideal fit because he's not exactly a mobile wide center back but no issues for now. Depends how Martinez recovers from injury.

CMs: A normal combination is a regista + a runner / ball-winner but obviously the balance here varies quite a bit. e.g., It could be a Jorginho + Kante or a Pirlo + Vidal or a Jorghino + Kovacic. I think Ugarte will be somewhat of a lock given his recent acquisition and decent form. Bruno in his regista role has been alright but he's far cry from a midfield metronome. I really want a specialist in this role. I'm also not sure where that leaves Mainoo because he doesn't seem to have a role here.

AM (1): Creator of the Bruno mould
AM (2): An inside forward, capable of receiving the ball on the half turn, drives into space behind. Need a starter.

WBs: Not much needs to be said, everyone understands what a wing back should do and it's generally easy to sign a wing back.
CF: Again, not much needs to be said. Think Diego Costa. Need better CFs. Someone like a Delap would be fine if we can get a bargain.

So overall my priority list is:

Playmaker CM (how many times have we said this over the last 10 years!) -- Ideally a Matic rather than a Jorginho but I'll take what I can get.
Inside forward
CF
RWB

 

[Roboc7]

Man he literally has no options to change much, it's just 3 attackers for the rest of the season, including one winger who just recorded 50 shots without scoring and one atrocious striker, one fit midfielder, one wingback.. not a lot of wiggle room in terms of tactical changes or other tweaks to formation. There will be no progress until we get 4-5 players to replace Rashford, Antony, Sancho, Casemiro, Dalot, players in the mould of Dorgu, athletic, hungry to perform, in positions that need filling like striker, 10s, wingbacks, midfield.

I think he should be doing a better but we have a very ordinary squad and very limited options. I don’t see the hurry to sack him as it’s so expensive, any replacement would have to be out of work and they just inherit all the same problems which will only be solved by bringing in new players irrespective of who the manager is.

The club has decided to press the reset button and it is going to be painful, there’s a good chance it will take multiple managers before this mess is fixed.

 

[acnumber9]

We should expect improvement in the long run, that's what we're (hopefully) working towards.

What is it that you are viewing that gives you reason to believe improvement is round the corner?

 

[Woziak]

The 'blame' for letting 3 players go that 95% of fans wanted gone from the club... okay then

Unreal

Yes but make sure you at least have replacements, say in a an highly unlikely hypothetical event that Unai Emery decided to Join United with Monchi and he then wants Rashford back, then what?

 

[pascell]

I’d sack him if we go out in Europe next week. He needs a good run here to save his job. Minimum semi finals for me.

And who would you bring in? What formation would you want us to play?

 

[pauldyson1uk]

I’d sack him if we go out in Europe next week. He needs a good run here to save his job. Minimum semi finals for me.

OK I will bite, so we lose in the EL and he does get sacked, who do we bring in ? its the same squad of players, the formation cant be the only problem.
What formation do you want to see ?

 

[NLunited]

Which takes? Let’s discuss! I know some of our resident Dutch fans haven’t liked what I’ve had to say over the last 12 months or so, but I don’t see anything wrong in what I’ve said in the quoted post. If I have, let’s hear it.

Ten Hag got away with murder in practically every game it felt like last season. That’s why the stats had us as being around 14th place in the league. And guess what, he got a fit squad this season with an extra £200m in signings and had us in….*checks notes*…14th place! What a surprise. And how about the Europa League? Practically getting knocked out of a competition where it is set up to make it very difficult to get knocked out. Some achievement with his £600m team (plus all the inherited players and youngsters, who are better than all of his signings pretty much). Don’t talk to me about Ten Hag.

De Ligt and Mazraoui are as average as I expected them to be.

Another piss take. Indeed he had us in 14th and that‘s why he‘s gone. He would not have finished there btw, that‘s highly unlikely.

But, we are worse with Amorim so far, over a larger amount of games, in PL and he had easy games in EL compared to Porto and Fehnerbace. We also look worse and create far less.

De Ligt and Mazraoui are upgrades on what we had.

Do you remember our backline lineups from last season? Despite that, 8th place.

Imagine Amorim being in 8th right now, it would be the biggest achievement ever.

We have the same issues as before, Amorim is trying to deal with it and failing. As Ten Hag failed. Amorim has to figure stuff out fast.

 

[Andy_Cole]

And who would you bring in? What formation would you want us to play?

OK I will bite, so we lose in the EL and he does get sacked, who do we bring in ? its the same squad of players, the formation cant be the only problem.
What formation do you want to see ?

I want to be patient but he needs to earn the transfer window in the summer. It’s been a disaster and I’ve seen no progress since he’s taken over.

You’ve both asked the same question and I don’t have a clue. Formation? Maybe something that’s suited to the players as we have minimal money to spend to accommodate Amorim’s system.

I honestly think we should’ve gone for Pochettino last summer to replace Hag. This summer? I’m not sure who’s available or done my homework to find a manager suited to the players. A manager who can be an upgrade on Ten Hag.

 

[red_de_pologne]

I want to be patient but he needs to earn the transfer window in the summer. It’s been a disaster and I’ve seen no progress since he’s taken over.

You’ve both asked the same question and I don’t have a clue. Formation? Maybe something that’s suited to the players as we have minimal money to spend to accommodate Amorim’s system.

I honestly think we should’ve gone for Pochettino last summer to replace Hag. This summer? I’m not sure who’s available or done my homework to find a manager suited to the players. A manager who can be an upgrade on Ten Hag.

Dear God..

 

[Woziak]

The o

Don't forget we would also have to pay off Amorim if we sack him and all his coaches. That would have an effect on the summer budget too and PSR.

Theoretically if Allegri came to the end of the season, who replaces him in the summer then??

The only option is Xavi who won’t cost a penny but he’ll want 2 and half year contract too and we still need to pay off RA and his staff.

This is the way I look at it; RA is naive and rookie 101.

1. Speaks too much about his players then expects them to bust a gut for him
2. Calls out Rashford and says his 63 year old GK coach would play before him!
3. Let’s 2 attacking players go with no replacement and united at the time was in 3
competitions at the time.
4. Says the Fa Cup and cups generally don’t matter, it’s about wining the league
5. Doesn’t really give youth a fair chance and picks 7 subs rather than 9 for an Fa Cup 5th Round and 2 are GK
6. So Naive picks a spat with Rooney?
7. More Naivety with him and his coaching staff not to recognise how poor we are at attacking and then not select Chido for the Europa League squad when he has a striker that’s not scored in 18 games?

His record is shocking he has 5 wins 3 draws and 8 Defeats from 16 PL games with a -6 GD this guy just doesn’t have the experience at the highest level to do the job or maybe he does?

If the board believe he has the quality needed then they have to go for broke and get 13/14 players out including youth and bankroll him with 8 to 9 players.

I don’t think SJR has much faith in Berrada and Wilcox right now who both championed this coach, to allow them to invest the £250-300m in the summer to give him half a chance!

There is an article in the media right now saying Liverpool said ‘No’ when they realised it would cost the club £400m to give Amorim the specialised players he would need for his system to work at Anfield.

In that case it might take Mr Amorim 3/4 years and £700/800m to instal his system at this club, this is why I think we could still see him get sacked within 3/4 weeks and the club jump on Xavi who was interviewed in November as well.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Dear God..

What’s the alternative? We’re apparently skint.

 

[pascell]

I want to be patient but he needs to earn the transfer window in the summer. It’s been a disaster and I’ve seen no progress since he’s taken over.

You’ve both asked the same question and I don’t have a clue. Formation? Maybe something that’s suited to the players as we have minimal money to spend to accommodate Amorim’s system.

I honestly think we should’ve gone for Pochettino last summer to replace Hag. This summer? I’m not sure who’s available or done my homework to find a manager suited to the players. A manager who can be an upgrade on Ten Hag.

We've tried formations that suit the players and managers too, how do you think we've accumulated them?

Bringing in a manager who suits the players is the completely wrong approach, player power will be in overdrive if we played our hand that way.

I'm backing Amorim, that's if he doesn't quit on us for being an absolute shambles.

 

[Camilo]

The players he removed need to go in the summer anyway.

When they can be replaced? Perfect. In the meantime we have poor Ruben with his weakened squad.

 

[Woziak]

What’s the alternative? We’re apparently skint.

Well Xavi was available but rumours are after 3 defeats Milan are sacking their manager to put Xavi in charge within next 72 hours, that’s how big clubs act?

We are no longer part of the European Royalty of Elite Clubs!

 

[RedRocket9908]

Don't forget we would also have to pay off Amorim if we sack him and all his coaches. That would have an effect on the summer budget too and PSR.

If we are knocked out by Sociadad which is highly likely the money we'll lose from the remaining rounds of the competition and from not playing in Europe next season will be many times what it'll cost to sack him now

if Allegri came to the end of the season, who replaces him in the summer then??

We could either keep Allegri (if he has done well) or have a look who is available, there will be people like Xavi, Zidane, Xabi Alonso, and more available to consider.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

We've tried formations that suit the players and managers too, how do you think we've accumulated them?

Bringing in a manager who suits the players is the completely wrong approach, player power will be in overdrive if we played our hand that way.

I'm backing Amorim, that's if he doesn't quit on us for being an absolute shambles.

Our decisions in general shouldn't be made with a lens of "find a manager who suits the players" or "sign players who suit the manager". The lens should be "decide how the club wants to play and sign players and hire a manager who fit that model".

 

[DSG]

It's partly why Ole was so looked down on despite him getting results at every club he's been at excepting Cardiff.

Which is why Sir Alex and Ancelotti are 1 and 2 for me.

 

[JBG]

Well Xavi was available but rumours are after 3 defeats Milan are sacking their manager to put Xavi in charge within next 72 hours, that’s how big clubs act?

We are no longer part of the European Royalty of Elite Clubs!

We should start giving managers "manage to win" types of contracts. So that they have to win a certain amount of matches and if they can't, we can fire them and just try out a new manager and do the same there and again and again until it sticks. And also give current players 10 years extra on their contracts, so we can find a manager that works with this lot as well.

 

[Lentwood]

It could get better. Or it could not. I mean, you can say things can get better with any manager if we sign better players. It’s still up to the manager to prove he’s the one to manage them.

Not necessarily "better" - more athletic.

Then we'll see whether he can coach or not.

EtH also had completely the wrong profile for his football, but he had two seasons and was directly responsible for selecting the majority of that squad - so he had to go.

It's not about blind faith or arbitrarily 'giving managers time'. It's about giving people the basic tools they need and then seeing what they can do.

 

[stevoc]

Dear God..

Out of interest do you think we should just buy a new squad?

 

[stevoc]

We've tried formations that suit the players and managers too, how do you think we've accumulated them?

Bringing in a manager who suits the players is the completely wrong approach, player power will be in overdrive if we played our hand that way.

I'm backing Amorim, that's if he doesn't quit on us for being an absolute shambles.

Isn't that exactly what the majority of clubs do the majority of the time?

 

[JBG]

Isn't that exactly what the majority of clubs do the majority of the time?

I think you would like my idea then. It's something Chelsea will probably steal from me.

We should start giving managers "manage to win" types of contracts. So that they have to win a certain amount of matches and if they can't, we can fire them and just try out a new manager and do the same there and again and again until it sticks. And also give current players 10 years extra on their contracts, so we can find a manager that works with this lot as well.

 

[JPRouve]

Curious what your take is on ideal role profiles for 5 ATB setups and for Amorim's 343 specifically. I wanted to make a thread profiling the CM role in a "typical" back three system. "typical" in quotes because there is really no such thing and player availability, club strength and coaching preferences all influence the setup. I planned to look at CM specifically but that got me thinking about the whole team in general.

I wanted to look at modern coaches (Conte, Tuchel, Alonso, Inzaghi) because I'm not really familiar with the Cryuffs / early Van Gaal and come up with general positional demands and identify where we're playing square pegs in round holes. Some thoughts initially:

CCB - We're fine with De Ligt / Maguire
RCB - Fine with Yoro / Maz
LCB - A Shaw type player would be nice, Martinez isn't the ideal fit because he's not exactly a mobile wide center back but no issues for now. Depends how Martinez recovers from injury.

CMs: A normal combination is a regista + a runner / ball-winner but obviously the balance here varies quite a bit. e.g., It could be a Jorginho + Kante or a Pirlo + Vidal or a Jorghino + Kovacic. I think Ugarte will be somewhat of a lock given his recent acquisition and decent form. Bruno in his regista role has been alright but he's far cry from a midfield metronome. I really want a specialist in this role. I'm also not sure where that leaves Mainoo because he doesn't seem to have a role here.

AM (1): Creator of the Bruno mould
AM (2): An inside forward, capable of receiving the ball on the half turn, drives into space behind. Need a starter.

WBs: Not much needs to be said, everyone understands what a wing back should do and it's generally easy to sign a wing back.
CF: Again, not much needs to be said. Think Diego Costa. Need better CFs. Someone like a Delap would be fine if we can get a bargain.

So overall my priority list is:

Playmaker CM (how many times have we said this over the last 10 years!) -- Ideally a Matic rather than a Jorginho but I'll take what I can get.
Inside forward
CF
RWB

I generally agree with your description but I would prioritize two different profiles. A LWB seems to be more important because Dorgu can play on either wings and I would have Amad as the starting RWB. I would rather have a mobile game manager like Vitinha or Kovacic than Matic especially since they can carry the ball through the middle with pace. As for the striker the closest thing to Mandzukic would be ideal, Delap seems to have a bit of that but I haven't seen enough of him to be sure.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

I want to be patient but he needs to earn the transfer window in the summer. It’s been a disaster and I’ve seen no progress since he’s taken over.

You’ve both asked the same question and I don’t have a clue. Formation? Maybe something that’s suited to the players as we have minimal money to spend to accommodate Amorim’s system.

I honestly think we should’ve gone for Pochettino last summer to replace Hag. This summer? I’m not sure who’s available or done my homework to find a manager suited to the players. A manager who can be an upgrade on Ten Hag.

Poch !!!! and what has he done ? I would have him way down any list, but who would I get, to be honest I dont have a clue.
Money for players to play in the new system why cant players adapt ?
We need new players we have dead wood that need cutting away.
I agree there has been no progress in fact we have gone backwards, but sacking another manager is IMHO not the answer.

 

[pocco]

Out of interest do you think we should just buy a new squad?

We don’t need a new squad, but if you’re lacking in key areas then it affects the whole. Look at City with a few injuries this season. Look at Arsenal now without a CF. Look at Liverpool when they lost VVD.

I think we need 3 or maybe 4 good signings to start playing better and putting teams to the sword. Not saying we’ll win the league, but I think if he can get 3 players and make progress, then maybe you and everyone else will be saying to back him with another 3 and see where he gets us. As it stands he’s had nothing, and with injuries and loaning players out, he’s not got anything to work with or to make any adjustments.

 

[acnumber9]

Isn't that exactly what the majority of clubs do the majority of the time?

These players though? These players who got Dave Sexton the sack?

 

[JPRouve]

Isn't that exactly what the majority of clubs do the majority of the time?

Yes, because the alternative is incredibly silly.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

The o

The only option is Xavi who won’t cost a penny but he’ll want 2 and half year contract too and we still need to pay off RA and his staff.

This is the way I look at it; RA is naive and rookie 101.

1. Speaks too much about his players then expects them to bust a gut for him
2. Calls out Rashford and says his 63 year old GK coach would play before him!
3. Let’s 2 attacking players go with no replacement and united at the time was in 3
competitions at the time.
4. Says the Fa Cup and cups generally don’t matter, it’s about wining the league
5. Doesn’t really give youth a fair chance and picks 7 subs rather than 9 for an Fa Cup 5th Round and 2 are GK
6. So Naive picks a spat with Rooney?
7. More Naivety with him and his coaching staff not to recognise how poor we are at attacking and then not select Chido for the Europa League squad when he has a striker that’s not scored in 18 games?

His record is shocking he has 5 wins 3 draws and 8 Defeats from 16 PL games with a -6 GD this guy just doesn’t have the experience at the highest level to do the job or maybe he does?

If the board believe he has the quality needed then they have to go for broke and get 13/14 players out including youth and bankroll him with 8 to 9 players.

I don’t think SJR has much faith in Berrada and Wilcox right now who both championed this coach, to allow them to invest the £250-300m in the summer to give him half a chance!

There is an article in the media right now saying Liverpool said ‘No’ when they realised it would cost the club £400m to give Amorim the specialised players he would need for his system to work at Anfield.

In that case it might take Mr Amorim 3/4 years and £700/800m to instal his system at this club, this is why I think we could still see him get sacked within 3/4 weeks and the club jump on Xavi who was interviewed in November as well.

All fair points. He also claimed this team to be the worst ever. He is a rookie and I don't trust him. We have very tricky PL games coming up.

 

[DSG]

I’m surprised there isn’t a poll at this point. I’d vote to give him more time, but we look abysmal every week.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Just delusional.

Firstly, for the third time, Allegri wont come to manage for 3 months as an interim. Period.

Secondly, Zidane and Xabi Alonso will not agree to manage United. Probably under any circumstance, but especially not when we're skint and Ineos are around.

You cant actually know any of this is true unless you have personally spoken to the managers I mentioned and tgey told you.

 

[The Mitcher]

All fair points. He also claimed this team to be the worst ever. He is a rookie and I don't trust him. We have very tricky PL games coming up.

We're calling him a rookie yet I doubt most rookie managers would say the things he's said about the players.

 

[pascell]

Our decisions in general shouldn't be made with a lens of "find a manager who suits the players" or "sign players who suit the manager". The lens should be "decide how the club wants to play and sign players and hire a manager who fit that model".

And that's exactly what we're doing/have already done.

Isn't that exactly what the majority of clubs do the majority of the time?

And mostly why they end up failing.