Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Ten Hag can be shit and Amorim can be shit. Things can be two things. After 2.5 years, Ten Hag was not the answer. That was really clear. Transfers (veto power… all transfers are on his watch), tactics, results… really dire. Amorim hasn’t been better. There are a lot of the Caf that don’t want to look at either one objectively, but that is the absolute truth.
Pretend you have the power: what’s your call?You would be hard pressed to cite managers who went on to succeed at major clubs following a “rubbish” start, unfortunately.
By and large, rubbish start leads to a rubbish rest-of-it, with very few significant deviations from a historical perspective.
Even those who oversaw a time-consuming and painstaking rebuild provided an initial bounce, a silver lining of sorts, something you could rally the troops around...
It's not even about underwhelming results per se. You have to see something, like making a bad situation better due to tactical adroitness, getting players to perform at a higher level than their median, being hard to contain as things click from time to time. For the most part, we are seeing nothing at all, just a pit of despair. There has to be some sort of gave-and-take dynamic for us to have faith in the head coach. It shouldn't be absolute and unshaking when there are warning signs. Affording the head coach time, aligning the club per their vision and essentially giving them a free pass because we need to give someone time can be a folly, and a way of declining further if it's not the right person.
- Alex Ferguson: from 1.00 point-per-game in the league under Ron Atkinson to 1.48 points-per-game for the rest of the season with a 27.5% loss rate.
- Mikel Arteta: from 1.23 points-per-game in the league under Unai Emery to 1.48 points-per-game for the rest of the season with a 23.8% loss rate.
- Rubén Amorim: from 1.23 points-per-game in the league under Erik Ten Hag to 1.12 points-per-game thus far with a 50% loss rate.
While I don't envy Berrada, Wilcox et al for having to make difficult decisions, that is their remit and this summer offers us another chance to make a fresh start (with regard to the sporting director and head coaches positions in particular). Much like the summer gone by, where we failed to seize the opportunity with both hands and sealed the fate of this season before the ball had even been kicked. The higher-ups need to weight up all pros and cons, explore different possibilities, and think long and hard about the direction we want to go in. Because going in the wrong direction will have profound repercussions, now more than ever. No one will think less of them for going in a different direction, if that decision is ultimately vindicated.
I agree with everything you wrote and think it’s madness to continue with this style and/or head coach.
He’s not well-regarded anymore.
People are advocating we keep a manager who will likely have an end of season record of 8 wins in 26 league games, crashing out of the FA Cup to a loss poor Fulham, and probably getting our asses handed to us in Spain in the Europa. How on earth is that acceptable.
We slated Ten Hag for playing Casemiro all by himself in midfield, and also the famous donut formation. I don’t recall anyone moaning about his principles.Cult of the manager
Don’t make me laugh!
Clearly the pair of you misunderstood my post & read things as black/white and don’t look deeper and understand that their is nuance.
Couldn’t care less about Amorim, I’d have said the same if it was someone else. Reason I would be done with the club is I’m sick to the back teeth of the constant changing of managers, the players have thrown manager after manager after manager under the bus, & it doesn’t matter which set of players it is either, it always seems to happen. The club is toxic. No other club seems to have this issue. Even if we are turning into Tottenham, they don’t have this issue & can always see a change of style whenever the manager changes.
Sick of people wanting to change managers, the same happened under Ten Hag and we slated him for NOT sticking to his principles and now we’re slating Ten Hag FOR sticking to his.
It seems a little disingenuous to make this comparison when Ten Hag had several years and £600 million in squad investment whilst Amorim’s had four months and Dorgu.
He is still well regarded by the vast majority of the football world. People know the United job is a poisoned chalice and the club is a mess. Just like ETH he will get plenty of job offers if he leaves us.
Yes because of all the extenuating circumstances:
He has no decent striker; His options are a poor 22 year old and a 17 year old
His best attacking player got a season ending injury and two other senior attacking players were let go in January without anyone being brought in.
The keeper has been awful and has cost him multiple times.
Came in halfway through the season into a new league and with the club in serious turmoil.
Of course results have been worse than expected but at least he recognizes the two main problems with our squad, we are not physical enough and we have players who do not trust their technique and would rather play hoof ball. If after a summer window and a few months into next season we are still struggling like we are now then sure fire him but not until he's been given a fair shot. This season was a writeoff as soon as we fired ETH half way through the season. We were never going to do anything in the league and now we only have one cup to go for. You can say he crashed out of the cup to a poor Fulham side but he also beat Arsenal away in the same cup.
Being pedantic but more like 3.5 months. While juggling the festive fixtures and then getting 1 budget WB at the end of the Jan window.
But we don't do common sense here; only reactionary, hysterical takes attacking the manager's body language while gradually gaslighting each other that the squad is Top 4 quality allowed.
Exactly.. There is another thread on our current squad. How can anyone look at it and think that it is a top 4 squad. We are struggling to put 11 experienced players on the field let alone playing different formations.
Can any manager come in and expected to do well with this squad? Do we have the speed to do a low block and counter-attack? Do we have the wingers to play a traditional 4-42? Are we imagining that Casemiro, Eriksen and Evans still have the legs to play full game every week in a physically demanding league?
Available experienced 11: Onana, Yoro, Maguire, Deligt, Lindelof, Evans, Dalot, Dorgu, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho,
Goalkeepers
Onana
Heaton INJURED
Bayindir
Graczyk (Yt)
Harrison (Yt)
Defenders/Fullbacks/Wingbacks
Yoro
Maguire
DeLigt
Martinez INJURED
Lindelof
Evans
Shaw INJURED
Dalot
Dorgu
Mazraoui
Heaven (Yt)
Midfielders
Ugarte
Bruno
Eriksen
Casemiro
Collyer (Yt)
Mainoo INJURED
Mount INJURED
Forwards
Hojlund
Zirkzee
Amad INJURED
Garnacho
Chido (Yt)
On-loan
Antony (FW)
Rashford (FW)
Sancho (FW)
For all this talk of us having crap players (correct), it's a coaches job to improve players, yet every single one has regressed in the 4 months he's been at the club.
Those who are saying to give him pre season...what's two months going to do if the only thing he's shown is negativity and player regression? You seriously think training sessions with no games will suddenly flick a switch in the players like a light bulb? "Oh that's what he wants us to do, gosh I just didn't get that for the first 6 months he was telling me as there were games to be played".
Those who are saying to give him pre season...what's two months going to do if the only thing he's shown is negativity and player regression? You seriously think training sessions with no games will suddenly flick a switch in the players like a light bulb? "Oh that's what he wants us to do, gosh I just didn't get that for the first 6 months he was telling me as there were games to be played".
You don`t think the `It has to get worse before it gets better` idea applies here given the circumstances? I would have thought the board was prepared to back Amorim for longer given the way in which United has gone through 5 managers plus 2 interim ones and it`s brought United nowhere nearer to be at least looking like a force in the Premier League again.
And if Amorim goes by the end of this year, do you think any big name manager with proven success will agree to come? Some names have been mentioned but who is somebody that would be willing to come in the present club environment?
Both Jurgen Klopp and Mikel Arteta joined part way thru the season. How did they fare in the league?
Klopp - moved from 10th to 8th in the League
30 matches
13 wins
9 daws
8 losses
Arteta - moved from 11th to 8th in the League
20 matches
9 wins
6 draws
5 losses
Amorim - took over with United in 13th
16 matches
5 wins
3 draws
8 losses
Y'all can compare the squads but even without the majority of this thread lately is obscene. Amorim took over a team in 13th place, which I don't think really registers for the impatient and undiscerning.
If you want to compare United to United, then here we go for mid season managers:
Solskjaer - moved United from 6th to...6th by season end
21 matches
12 wins
4 draws
5 losses
Ragnick - moved United from 7th to 6th
24 matches
10 wins
7 draws
7 losses
I just don't see how we can fairly judge Amorim until the season is over even against these comparisons and considering at what position he took over.
Klopp - moved from 10th to 8th in the League
30 matches
13 wins
9 daws
8 losses
Arteta - moved from 11th to 8th in the League
20 matches
9 wins
6 draws
5 losses
Amorim - took over with United in 13th
16 matches
5 wins
3 draws
8 losses
Y'all can compare the squads but even without the majority of this thread lately is obscene. Amorim took over a team in 13th place, which I don't think really registers for the impatient and undiscerning.
If you want to compare United to United, then here we go for mid season managers:
Solskjaer - moved United from 6th to...6th by season end
21 matches
12 wins
4 draws
5 losses
Ragnick - moved United from 7th to 6th
24 matches
10 wins
7 draws
7 losses
I just don't see how we can fairly judge Amorim until the season is over even against these comparisons and considering at what position he took over.
Good posts by both of you. I really hope those fans that want him sacked now are ignored. We can revisit whether we should be keeping him around October, November of next season. For now all of our eggs should be in the europa basket.
Agreed, it will probably happen like in ETH case, give him the summer in hopes for a miracle, then absolutely nothing happened, we were even worse than the previous season. Only difference are the excuses, ETH had the injuries, Amorim will have the player's familiarity with the system.
Two years and £600 million spent on players are two other pretty big differences, surely?
But does it really matter? Amorim will have to make do with a majority of these very players, and if he can't we need someone that can
I think SAF was quite famous for doing great jobs with not so great teams.
We've barely been able to get right profiles/players the last few years.
Now we have to get the right profiles/players and make sure they fit into a back 3 AND back 4 formation?
Yeah, I aint feeling too condfident.
Now we have to get the right profiles/players and make sure they fit into a back 3 AND back 4 formation?
Yeah, I aint feeling too condfident.
It's a horrible squad, made even worse by the injuries.
How anyone looks at it and still rants on about us being '17th in the form table' is beyond me.
ETH was a disaster in the transfer market but, that doesn't help Amorim though as he will probably never have the chance to spend that much.
Collyer is also injured, I think Evans as well
Yes, it does matter, because there will be some player turnover in the summer and a few really smart signings can easily make the team start looking very different.
It depends on what you mean by a fair judgment.
Jurgen Klopp is a great manager. But like all managers, he has weaknesses. One of his weaknesses is that his teams are capable of surprisingly low league finishes, as seen with Liverpool 8th place finish when he took over, 5th place finish in one of his last seasons, and Dortmund last season which was also 8th iirc. Those weaknesses do not mean his teams are incapable of great heights, but they exist, and can be criticized, and were criticized at the time.
Arteta has done a good job at Arsenal, but he is always coming up short. He came up short for basic objectives in their first two full seasons. Since then they've been in two title races in which they didn't win the title or even got a particularly high point tally, and this season they are looking like they've regressed. It's not unreasonable to think that he won't win a PL title, and if he doesn't those 8th place finishes aren't going to look like aberrations, they'll look like the mark of a manager who could never get that much extra out of his squad.
Amorim doesn't need a full new starting 11.
Literally ONLY a competent striker will make us 5 times better.
Good goalkeeper and one more good fullback will make us 10 times better.
I think with just 3 signings we can be in top 6 mix easily.
Literally ONLY a competent striker will make us 5 times better.
Good goalkeeper and one more good fullback will make us 10 times better.
I think with just 3 signings we can be in top 6 mix easily.
I'm not sure that has to apply here or at any club. Some United fans have a weird fascination with the idea that we need to suffer through a certain period under a new manager and if we just keep the faith eventually everything will be ok. But football history shows us that few managers who go through a very poor period ever really turn it round to any great degree. Of the big problems post SAF that have brought United to where we currently find ourselves, not giving managers enough time isn't among them. Most likely the opposite in fact, we give managers way too much time, more than just about any other big club. Giving Ten Hag a year more than he deserved when it was obvious by Xmas 2023 he wasn't turning around the mess he'd made. Has in no small part contributed to the mess Amorim inherited. And those problems have compounded over the years.
Yes, because the manager of Manchester United is still one of the top 3-5 paid jobs on the planet. All but a handful of managers would take a contract at United.
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Good post and alludes to what I said in this thread yesterday.
Furthermore, unconfirmed but also a possibility that Maguire, Evans and Collyer are all also injured with Garnacho having apparently carried a knock the last 2 games also.
I think we’ve got more pieces than we think, but we’re not seeing it because they’re having to be used in different ways than you’d ideally want. Eg…
Bruno at CM to help progress the ball instead of no10. But a good CM and you improve 2 positions.
Amad at RWB instead of 10 to provide width and threat out wide. Buy a RWB and improve 2 positions.
Then obviously a CF would make the world of difference. Hell even somebody like Mateta would be great compared to what we’re seeing.
Potter did take over Chelsea mid season.
My only problem is with Amorim is his stubborn adherence to his favourite formation. I really don't think that's the way. My favourite manager is Carlo Ancelotti for a reason. I usually watch Real Madrid matches too. I remember, last year Real Madrid had a huge injury crisis (at one point two midfielders played in the defence and this year too) and Ancelotti changed the system quite often depending who was available. He used four different formations and they succeded, won the domestic league and the CL too. I know the spaniards have one of the best squads at the moment but still, a bit more flexibility would help to get better results. I know this squad wouldn'be good enough for top4 finish but definitely better than the current 14th. United are playing with fire and that's scary as we're talking about one of the biggest, most popular team of the planet.
We have more pieces of the puzzle than we realise, but the problem is we’re almost sacrificing some of them right now to do other jobs. Eg
Bruno in CM instead of no10. He’s playing deeper to help progress the ball because we don’t have the CBs or CMs to do it. Buy a CM that can do it and we fix two positions, as Bruno can move to no 10.
Amad at RWB instead of no.10. He’s played here to offer width and a threat. I’ll explain why I think this is critical in a minute. But buy a RWB with attacking threat and we again solve 2 positions, as Amad can move back to the no10 role.
Then obviously a good CF will change the whole dynamic. Hell even somebody like Mateta would revitalise our whole attack.
Coming back to the wing back issue, here’s why I think this is really crucial. At Sporting he used his WBs to push high and wide, which spread out the opposition horizontally across the pitch and gave the CMs, 10s and the CF room to operate centrally. However every team of we play right now is leaving the WBs as they’re no threat, and will only make their way out to them when they get the ball. This makes them compact and hard to break down. This is absolutely key to making this system work. But we need WBs that offer enough threat to keep the opposition humble and worried. Then we need somebody in midfield and even CBs that can pick out diagonal balls to them. Having this will make the opposition have to deal with them more tightly, and will open up that space centrally.
I think we’ve got some players that can do that, such as Dorgu at LWB. Maguire and Martinez are decent at finding the passes through the lines and to the WBs, maybe even Yoro too.
I think we need a CM with good passing ability, an explosive RWB who can offer that threat out wide, then a CF. Defence and 10s are ok for now if we sign these players. But any further improvements in those positions is a bonus.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Come on lad, that’s a stretch.
Even if that did happen, an injury or two and we are back to being a team that plays like relegation fodder.
This system needs more surgery than 3 players to even be mid table.
Probably need a midfielder for beside ugarte too,only problem is when we build Ruben's first eleven,we are an injury or two away from having to count on some of these bluffers again. And we will get injuries cause for some reason we buy broken players or our medical side of the club is terrible. How do Liverpool avoid injuries. We've had couple at least "key" players out at all times for last three years I reckon. We get one back another one goes. Started with Carroll on eriksen,then Shaw,varane,martinez,mount,amad and even yoro. I'm sure there's loads more.
I think you'd be surprised. A world class striker who nets a minimum of 20 goals in the premier league would push us into the top half.
It would be incredibly unlucky for the three new starters to all be injured at once, but it would also be incredibly lucky to sign three players who walk straight into the first 11 and play well, so there is that.
What's the common characteristic across all of those signings...none of them are great athletes.
Almost every single pound spent under EtH was on a player who was either slow, weak, always injured...or various combinations of the three.
Until we bring in some physicality, we're going to continue to struggle UNLESS we revert back to a low-block to counter our lack of physical attributes.
Its no more or less complicated than that. Its not about systems, its simply that our players can't run, can't win duels and are always injured.
Recruitment under Ten Hag ruined us completely. He was trusted with a massive rebuild and we can't even name one player who has been a definite success. 99% of us wanted to do the same with Rashford and Antony and now Amorim is getting the blame. Don't get me wrong, we should still be doing better and we can't continue losing this many games but talk about being dealt a tough hand.
No one is blaming Amorim for ETH's mistakes. They correctly assign blame for his failure to improve performances.
Nice straw man, no one is calling for Amorim to be sacked.
However, he has given supporters little reason to be optimistic about the future of this club.
We should expect more from the players AND the manager. When they don’t perform they should expect criticism.
People who accept mediocrity until there’s a complete squad overhaul are dreaming. Given our financial status, this will take 5+ years.
And flopped less than Amorim despite being terrible himself