Just implied it time and time again. Do you know what has cost us? Shit managers.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Agreed, PL is a different level of competitiveness and player quality and if something works in Portugal it doesn't necessarily mean it will work here.
The most worrying thing for me about Amorim is the fact that since his first game against Ipswitch, when we played well for about 3 minutes, and the last game against Fulham there was almost no change in the way the team express themselves, passing options, defending, getting the ball forward etc. We play nothing since then till now, so 0 progress in 3-4 months, except maybe set pieces.
Also a manager should be able to boost players morale and just make them play better. Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garna, Mainoo looked better under ETH than under Amorim.
I think a 360 degree turnaround is exactly what we will see!
Shit managers and shit bosses at the top enabling them for too long.
What I don't get is that he has made comments that imply he knows it's different, yet his actions suggest otherwise.
Again, it’s been misread - the act of sacking yet another manager - when they aren’t the problem - is what would cause me to just support the team as is and not hope for europe or a trophy each year and take it as jt comes. How hard is that to understand?
The literal act of just sacking a manager when it gets tough is what I’d pissed off about.
It’s ego. He backed himself into a corner because people said three at the back couldn’t work and he insisted it was all he knew, what he was hired for and he wouldn’t be changing it. If he changes it now he’ll view it as backing down.
Tuchel wouldn't take the job after the interview. I would love to know what they said to him for him to make that decision. Can't be there was no money because they then found it for ETH to spend.
Isn't it always.
Well because admitting to something and saying it is one thing, but having the capacity to find a solution to a problem is a different story.
I really don't care much about what he says, I really don't care what any manager has to say honestly, a manager speaks on the football pitch, that's what he's paid for and that is where he's legacy will be remembered for.
It isn't entirely the system but the personel in the system, which is why they should have either brought him in last summer or next summer. He needs attacking wingbacks, Dorgu looks like he could be good, but Dalot just cannot do that. He also needs a consistant playmaker in the midfielder and of course somebody to put the ball in the net. I won't mention the goalkeeper.
Him and ETH seemed to have these massive egos and stubborn streaks to the point of madness. Honestly, just admit the mistake and make the change, it's only going to get him sacked like it did ETH.
I feel the signings got gradually worse too (except for maybe last summer). Especially in the forward positions
Not with five at the back that's for sure. However plenty of other teams in the premiership play attacking football so there's no excuse for us.
I actually like some stubbornness in a manager. Mourinho is stubborn, SAF was stubborn also but not in a "this is the hill I'm dying on" kind of way like Ruben. They regularly adjusted their tactics to suit the opponent.
I wouldn't call Fergie stubborn.
I feel for Amorim. Say what you will about him as a coach, I can't think of many coaches at the top level who have a tougher job than him in this moment. Fresh of the back of 45 minutes with 10 men, he's now had to put pretty much the same group of players through 120 minutes that end up being for nothing. Now he has to pick them up for another crucial game, away, in just a few days, against another team that will no doubt be salivating at the at the idea of kicking this giant whilst they're down.
And if this guy is anything like me (he's not, but go with me), then its not the on field performances that are giving you headaches. He'll be resigned to the lack of quality by now, and the effort & fight shown by the players has been good (if not great) since Everton. Its everything else that will be killing him. The state of the club, the layoffs, the press, what seems like every corner of the internet that isn't talking about Trump. Christ I hope the poor guy doesn't read redcafe.
But more than anything else its his lack of options that'll be killing him. Having to bring on a 17 year old and hoping he does something because your 22 year old isn't doing it (and has never shown he can do it). 18 year old Heaven on for Maguire because Martinez is injured. Dalot on the left, again even though he's shown a complete inability to deliver quality into the box, because your new 20 year old January lifeline showed the immaturity of a 20 year old against Ipswich. He's had to adapt to that with maybe 1 training session in between, which he's probably spent doing set pieces because he has quite astutely realised its our best chance of scoring (and he's been proven right).
Now he's got to pick these guys up again after 120 exhausting minutes of a game that they actually had the better of, ahead of the most important tie of the season. Again, with maybe 1 training session. Wish I could buy the poor bastard a beer.
I commonly see a lack of flexibility leveled against him, but all I see is him having to make compromises. Like yesterday - we know he doesn't want to play on the counter, but if you have to drop Bruno into midfield then you know he's going to release and he's going to do so with the patience of a toddler. I love Bruno but stable controlled possession is not his game. He wants his 10 dominating the centre, but after losing Amad, Mount, and Bruno (to midfield) you're left with Eriksen who can't cover ground, and Garnacho who always drifts wide (blocking the wb), won't pass and can't score.
I think this chaos is whats allowing me to hope. The hope being that he gets his players back from injury, gets a preseason to train, gets the odd parts and old legs out and gets players in he can use and slowly everything calms down. Now to be honest, I said the same about Ten Hag. The difference is I can actually see what Amorim is trying to do, which I didn't ever see with Ten Hag. I just hope beyond hope Ineos stick by their first appointment, and focus instead on fixing all the other issues with the team, that would be there regardless of whether they get rid of Amorim or not. Solve one thing at a time.
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I also think we'll look back on his handling of Garnacho in years to come as a really interesting early example of his management. For all the talk of his tactical inflexibility, his use of Garnacho is a genuine example the opposite. I think Amorim recognises the intensity and spark that Garnacho brings to a game, and he has publicly called out his strengths in 1 v 1s. He recognises his value, and yet I'd be astonished if Garnacho is here come September.
You look back at the post Fergie years, and we've rarely regretted letting a player go too early. Evans, Welbeck, Blind maybe - please remind me if I've forgotten anyone (and I think I'm being generous there). Our problem has been the opposite - getting rid of players too late.
Now I like Garnacho the player, though he could do with a little bit of maturing as a character. As a player though he's direct, intense, skilkful, capable of the spectacular. A joy to watch at times. Still - time to get rid. His negative traits will need time to coach out (if they can be coached out). Namely his inability to get his head up and find the pass, his poor conversion rate and his poor decision making. Regardless of whether or not you want to give Amorim a team, these are traits that the next manager would have to deal with.
But there is potential there, so there is still a risk of selling him now for a price that undervalues the player he will become. That makes him fairly unique in the backing Amorim question, because whilst everyone else that needs to go, and all the profiles you need to bring in are fairly universal (wbs excluded), Garnacho and his potential are a bonafide sacrifice to the Amorim way of playing. It is vital then that Ineos get a good price for Garnacho, because otherwise forcing him out at any price will always be a stick to beat Amorim with.
And if this guy is anything like me (he's not, but go with me), then its not the on field performances that are giving you headaches. He'll be resigned to the lack of quality by now, and the effort & fight shown by the players has been good (if not great) since Everton. Its everything else that will be killing him. The state of the club, the layoffs, the press, what seems like every corner of the internet that isn't talking about Trump. Christ I hope the poor guy doesn't read redcafe.
But more than anything else its his lack of options that'll be killing him. Having to bring on a 17 year old and hoping he does something because your 22 year old isn't doing it (and has never shown he can do it). 18 year old Heaven on for Maguire because Martinez is injured. Dalot on the left, again even though he's shown a complete inability to deliver quality into the box, because your new 20 year old January lifeline showed the immaturity of a 20 year old against Ipswich. He's had to adapt to that with maybe 1 training session in between, which he's probably spent doing set pieces because he has quite astutely realised its our best chance of scoring (and he's been proven right).
Now he's got to pick these guys up again after 120 exhausting minutes of a game that they actually had the better of, ahead of the most important tie of the season. Again, with maybe 1 training session. Wish I could buy the poor bastard a beer.
I commonly see a lack of flexibility leveled against him, but all I see is him having to make compromises. Like yesterday - we know he doesn't want to play on the counter, but if you have to drop Bruno into midfield then you know he's going to release and he's going to do so with the patience of a toddler. I love Bruno but stable controlled possession is not his game. He wants his 10 dominating the centre, but after losing Amad, Mount, and Bruno (to midfield) you're left with Eriksen who can't cover ground, and Garnacho who always drifts wide (blocking the wb), won't pass and can't score.
I think this chaos is whats allowing me to hope. The hope being that he gets his players back from injury, gets a preseason to train, gets the odd parts and old legs out and gets players in he can use and slowly everything calms down. Now to be honest, I said the same about Ten Hag. The difference is I can actually see what Amorim is trying to do, which I didn't ever see with Ten Hag. I just hope beyond hope Ineos stick by their first appointment, and focus instead on fixing all the other issues with the team, that would be there regardless of whether they get rid of Amorim or not. Solve one thing at a time.
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I also think we'll look back on his handling of Garnacho in years to come as a really interesting early example of his management. For all the talk of his tactical inflexibility, his use of Garnacho is a genuine example the opposite. I think Amorim recognises the intensity and spark that Garnacho brings to a game, and he has publicly called out his strengths in 1 v 1s. He recognises his value, and yet I'd be astonished if Garnacho is here come September.
You look back at the post Fergie years, and we've rarely regretted letting a player go too early. Evans, Welbeck, Blind maybe - please remind me if I've forgotten anyone (and I think I'm being generous there). Our problem has been the opposite - getting rid of players too late.
Now I like Garnacho the player, though he could do with a little bit of maturing as a character. As a player though he's direct, intense, skilkful, capable of the spectacular. A joy to watch at times. Still - time to get rid. His negative traits will need time to coach out (if they can be coached out). Namely his inability to get his head up and find the pass, his poor conversion rate and his poor decision making. Regardless of whether or not you want to give Amorim a team, these are traits that the next manager would have to deal with.
But there is potential there, so there is still a risk of selling him now for a price that undervalues the player he will become. That makes him fairly unique in the backing Amorim question, because whilst everyone else that needs to go, and all the profiles you need to bring in are fairly universal (wbs excluded), Garnacho and his potential are a bonafide sacrifice to the Amorim way of playing. It is vital then that Ineos get a good price for Garnacho, because otherwise forcing him out at any price will always be a stick to beat Amorim with.
If he had two attacking wingbacks, a goalkeeper that can play out from the back. MDL did some nice passes yesterday, but we need more pace in there as well. Yoro seems to have that. The midfield is an issue to me, it seems set up to be defensive, but is actually porous.
Yet Elanga isn't good enough for us apparently.
You would be hard pressed to cite managers who went on to succeed at major clubs following a “rubbish” start, unfortunately.
By and large, rubbish start leads to a rubbish rest-of-it, with very few significant deviations from a historical perspective.
Even those who oversaw a time-consuming and painstaking rebuild provided an initial bounce, a silver lining of sorts, something you could rally the troops around...
It's not even about underwhelming results per se. You have to see something, like making a bad situation better due to tactical adroitness, getting players to perform at a higher level than their median, being hard to contain as things click from time to time. For the most part, we are seeing nothing at all, just a pit of despair. There has to be some sort of gave-and-take dynamic for us to have faith in the head coach. It shouldn't be absolute and unshaking when there are warning signs. Affording the head coach time, aligning the club per their vision and essentially giving them a free pass because we need to give someone time can be a folly, and a way of declining further if it's not the right person.
- Alex Ferguson: from 1.00 point-per-game in the league under Ron Atkinson to 1.48 points-per-game for the rest of the season with a 27.5% loss rate.
- Mikel Arteta: from 1.23 points-per-game in the league under Unai Emery to 1.48 points-per-game for the rest of the season with a 23.8% loss rate.
- Rubén Amorim: from 1.23 points-per-game in the league under Erik Ten Hag to 1.12 points-per-game thus far with a 50% loss rate.
While I don't envy Berrada, Wilcox et al for having to make difficult decisions, that is their remit and this summer offers us another chance to make a fresh start (with regard to the sporting director and head coaches positions in particular). Much like the summer gone by, where we failed to seize the opportunity with both hands and sealed the fate of this season before the ball had even been kicked. The higher-ups need to weight up all pros and cons, explore different possibilities, and think long and hard about the direction we want to go in. Because going in the wrong direction will have profound repercussions, now more than ever. No one will think less of them for going in a different direction, if that decision is ultimately vindicated.
Which is exactly what we did with giving Ten Hag a year more than he deserved.
Have we downgraded De Ligt is better than Victor, Ugarte is better than Fred and Mctom, everyone wanted Rashford gone, Garnacho is still here and Martial was injured almost all the time, everyone wanted De Gea gone, Lingard gone, Pogba was a waste of time, you could argue Greenwood in a footballing sense, Ronaldo and Cavani were both old AF, Sancho another waster I mean I could go on anyone would think under Rangnick, Ole and Jose we had a bunch of world beaters we didn't then either what we had was some competent coaching
We let emotions get in the way of logic. It was incredible watching people who wanted to sack ETH IMMEDIATELY want to keep him because we won the FA Cup despite all the damage he did. I can accept that fans can be that fickle, but the fact that even INEOS fell for that is unacceptable. TBH, winning the Europa League shouldn't guarantee anything for Amorim either. We need the CL money sure, but the bread and butter is the league. Fergie got that, Clough got that, Pep get's it.
To be fair this job seems to drain the positivity out of all the managers since SAF.
The big problem is the youth teams do not play the same system as the first team squad, so a youth player might not have a clue how to play there either.
Rangnick was an incompetent. He tried for forty five minutes against crystal palace, gave up, and then shat on the team all season, turned the fans on the players, and then expected a consultancy. I'm glad he's nowhere near this club anymore.
Has he? Do you watch Liverpool?
To me they're basically playing the same football as under Klopp and are being carried towards a title by Salah and VVD like it's one last hoorah. Seems to be very similar to Utd in SAF's final season, they'll get over the line by sheer will power rather than being a quality team that will be able to keep going.
Be interesting to see how he'll get on if he has to replace Salah, VVD, TAA and Robertson in the summer.
Formation doesn't mean shit when the quality of the players just isn't there to make the difference in attack.
Utd have 1 midfielder capable of creating anything, no wingers that are capable of creating anything and a striker who can't score goals.
Thought Ashworth didn't want to keep ETH it was others. Rumoured it was Wilcox.
Good post. That first part especially is required reading for the Amorim out before the summer crew.
There's very little truth in the post you quoted. Ashworth wasn't even at the club this supposed hunting for alternatives never happened
This seems to buy into the fact what he will build, if given a lot of money, will be someone how vastly better than what we see now though?
The situation is really simple, in an ideal world you get a bounce and then the manager can basically ride that wave for the rest of the season like Tuchel when he took over from Lampard. It is rare so the reality is you either get:
Promising performances but mixed results - this is what I had hoped to see. Or you get poor performances but pick up results, usually more defensive/boring managers, basically like Ruud's setup as interim. We're getting the worst of both worlds.
Isn't that just taking a sensible approach rather than ripping it all up and expecting players to adapt to a new way of playing instantly. Not like silly clubs who try to do it midseason.
It was Ashworth and Brailsford.
Thought Tuchel admitted he was interviewed.
If we continue as we have been then I don't see him making Xmas this year. He'll get a preseason and a transfer window but I reckon he'll need to have this team ticking and playing well from the start of next season to see 2026.
They sacked Ten Hag midseason because they obviously expected a new manager to be able to improve things. While I'm sure they understood the new man might need time to get an upturn in form/results. I doubt the club thought things would get this bad.
Can posters please realise that he's HEAD COACH not manager. He will not be leading any rebuild, it will be Wilcox, Vivell and whoever replaces Ashworth. Yes, he will have input, but he is not going to be buying or selling ANY player.
Agree with this. There has been zero improvement, in fact we're getting worse every week and he hasn't a clue how to fix it.
No we haven't actually.
Yeah for sure, but blaming a guy that wasn't even at the club for hunting alternatives and simultaneously making the decision to keep ETH is silly
I think the whole forum realises this, though he has a veto. The question remains. What is it about the way he wants to play that is worth backing?
Ashworth wasn't at United. It's Berrada, Wilcox, Blanc and Brailsford that were interviewing and assessing options.
The funny thing is we would probably all kill for a midfield of McFred again club is just run terribly. Letting players like Scott, wellbeck, Evans, Elanga go. Scott and wellbeck would be first choice players now.