Nobody expected him to turn us into title contenders in 3 months.
But play decent football, get some logical results and a little hope for the future is not much to ask and he is far from it.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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But play decent football, get some logical results and a little hope for the future is not much to ask and he is far from it.
I’d like to know what realistic expectations are for a manager taking over a club in 14th place who has since signed one player and belatedly bit the bullet by shipping out two overpaid underperformers who were still probably better players than their backups. All in a climate of doom and despair, coming from the very top of the football club that hired him.
Unless we consider that ETH was doing a good job as a coach, I believe that a realistic expectation for anyone replacing him would be any sort of improvements when it comes to performances. Now my arbitrary expectations were to stabilize the club anywhere between the 8th and 12th best team from November to May and ideally close to 8th.
Is that unrealistically high?
Yeah that’s not happening while we still have the likes of Hojlund, Dalot, Casemiro, Maguire, and Onana being required for key roles in the starting 11.
I dont think anyone would have argued against that last November.
That penalty shoot out feels like a proper sliding doors moment. Ole gets the team over the line and wins a trophy, could things have been very different?
Man, I wanted Ole to succeed so badly lol!
There are a total of zero posts on this forum demanding that he turn us into title contenders in 3 months. Give the poor straw man some rest.
Which is the issue. We went from 3 points away from 8th to 11 points while playing some of the most abject Football in the past 12 years. But people are being unrealistic if they think that it's nowhere near acceptable.
When he took over we had 15 points in 11 games and we collected 15 points in the following 15 games.
Ah yeah, for some reason I thought he was still on loan. Totally forgot we actually sold him.
History has been re-written on this forum. I remember ETH needing to be sacked to “save the season”.
And I think he should have been sacked earlier while I also don’t think Amorim should be sacked now. But the idea that he can’t be held accountable or that expecting us to look better than the 16th or 17th best team in the league is asking too much is truly preposterous.
Thank feck for those ETH points.
I agree it cant be acceptable because the only "positive" has been some disciplinary actions. There is clear regression in all other aspects of the first team performance.
It may be harsh and very unfair but I don’t think Amorim will get another season. The results have just gone south in such dramatic fashion that only a cup win could save him and we all know what happened the last time we backed a manager who brought silverware home. I mean the performances have fallen off a cliff from its already dire levels. We’ve found new lows to explore!
Agreed. What I find weird about our fans is.
They will say our biggest mistake was backing Ten Hag and then sacking him based on his last season's performances.
They will also moan that we didn't back Amorim in January, because they didn't spend money.
So they are confused, there is no winning.
If we keep the same standard, those who wanted Ten Hag sacked last June, should surely want Amorim sacked too? Same players, worse results and performances, with no sign that he should be backed or will improve anything.
ETH had the same players and finished 8th. If we account for regression from some of the older players and some improvement from the younger players it isn't that unrealistic to expecting us have around 10-12th. As it is, we are 17th in the form table since Amorim took over. No way we are that bad.
I know people like to bring up how we overachieved last season and that our xG table had us around 15th. If that was the case then ETH was an amazing motivator to get the players perform out of their skin something which Amorim is not able to do.
And I made this point in a different post yesterday but we were actually surprisingly decent defensively this season before Amorim took over. We had something like 2nd highest clean sheets in the league and Onana was making some very good saves and was looking like a very good GK. Now he has regressed along with the others.
I wanted ETH sacked well before June.
Amorim will get until May and if he can't get a tune out of these players by then, it will be difficult to support him and his 3 CB system.
I fit with that description so I can give you an answer. No I don't want Amorim sacked, not right now, to me it's similar to the end of ETH first season, the performances were worrying and my take was that he needed to do better, then the preseason happened and I was in favor of his sacking in October-November 2023 because no manager should watch his team perform that poorly for 4 or 5 months into a new season and do next to nothing to fix it.
It's not ideal and it even goes against some of my convictions but unless something dramatic happens I want to see Amorim have some time off to reflect on the team and a full preseason.
What I don't want is the worst excuses under the Sun for a manager that is objectively doing a terrible job.
That's a hilarious take. Nothing Ole has shown before, during or after his time at United showed that he was on a level with any of our post fergie managers.
That's illogical.
The reason ETH should have been sacked in the Summer was because he'd had two full seasons and spent €450m. Our League performances had been woeful for well over 16 months at that point. Our attack was getting worse and we were losing games on a consistent and frequent basis. We'd been royally fecked in Europe as well. He'd been given a fair crack at building a new squad and given two pre seasons to attempt to drill the players into a decent outfit. He failed.
Amorim has come in mid way through a Season just before the busiest part of the Season and expected to turn our fortunes around and when we finally got to the transfer window, we loaned out two senior players (correct calls) but only spent €32.00m on a wingback. We actually reduced the depth of our squad. That to me is not backing, that's simply making things worse not better. The two scenario's are not comparable.
This year is going to be rough. Amorim said it from the get go and I think we just need to suck it up, as painful as it is to watch.
He's a manager sticking to an idea, principles and philosophy that he believes in and that he has made work before. Let's give him the chance to properly train the team over the next few months and give him a proper pre-season and hopefully some new players.
If it doesn't work, at least we will have given him the chance to implement his plans. ETH abandoned his plans so early on and just looked like he was treading water tactically with no end goal in sight.
He's a manager sticking to an idea, principles and philosophy that he believes in and that he has made work before. Let's give him the chance to properly train the team over the next few months and give him a proper pre-season and hopefully some new players.
If it doesn't work, at least we will have given him the chance to implement his plans. ETH abandoned his plans so early on and just looked like he was treading water tactically with no end goal in sight.
ETH finished 8th more or less because of McTomminay. He's not here anymore.
It's funny to me seeing people who vehemently defended ETH for 18 months straight turning on the new manager so quickly. Suddenly all those excusees and mitigating factors don't matter that much.
I feel for Amorim because he inherited an absolute shitshow. A team that finished 8th and was in further decline. Drilling an entirely new system in these circumstances is turning out to be an impossible task. Sadly he will probably not get the time he needs but we can't be losing this many games either. He said it himself he will need to earn the time. It really seems the era of giving Ten Hag so much say in our final expensive rebuild was our final nail in the coffin. I don't know how we recover from that.
I feel for Amorim because he inherited an absolute shitshow. A team that finished 8th and was in further decline. Drilling an entirely new system in these circumstances is turning out to be an impossible task. Sadly he will probably not get the time he needs but we can't be losing this many games either. He said it himself he will need to earn the time. It really seems the era of giving Ten Hag so much say in our final expensive rebuild was our final nail in the coffin. I don't know how we recover from that.
It doesn't mean performances were better than the squad is. It just means results went our way and we were lucky considering those performances.
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. XG shows kind of the "real" performance of the team. The difference to the true table isn't motivation, but essentially boils down to unusually good or bad finishing.
However there can be a mental part of that - a striker full of confidence might be more calm and therefore clinical as one who misses again and again.
But a lot of the difference last season was due to luck in the defence, not luck in the attack, so not a lot (but maybe a little) could be attributed to EtH's skills.
No. We have an even weaker squad, and Amorim has had no way to alter that squad. It really isn't complicated.
When everyone with a clue turned on Ten Hag (Christmas 2023 was objectively the correct time to turn on him) he'd had two summer transfer windows and spent well over £400m on almost all shite. He was clearly making the club worse with every transfer window and training session.
I am not saying he has to be sacked, there are way too many similarities to the Ten Hag situation. Whilst people say.. you need to back him, I agree but I have learnt from backing Ole and Ten Hag that, over the course of time, at United managers tend to get worse, not better, so a manager starting so badly, at the moment, there is only one direction this is going.
So we are going into the summer and using the term wait and see what happens. The board then have to back him in the summer if they keep him, so spend money right? So the people saying Ten Hag wasted money, Amorim if he doesn't improve next season, has wasted money too. Now, who's fault will that be?
Being a regular top 4 side isn't for everyone I suppose.
How is it illogical?
You are berating Ten Hag for spending 450m and not improving us, yet he won two trophies for us?
There has been no signs of improvement, managers come in the middle of the season and improve teams, I can name loads.
So he is worse than the previous guy, who we all agree should have been sacked last June, yet we wont question this manager for doing worse.
Agreed. Should have pulled the plug after that Bayern Munich result in December. Ar the very least after the 2-0 loss to West Ham a few weeks later. I remember getting so frustrated we stuck with him after that, just felt like the club was sitting on it's hands waiting for Summer to get rid of him then we bloody kept him and backed him with a further €200m. Genius football decisions all round.
If Amorim is sacked in June, we still have to spend money. Who's spending the money if he's sacked? The same clowns who helped identify Zirkzee and Hojlund as the best strikers to sign? What accomplished manager is available this summer who will come in, hit the ground running and orchestrate a big transfer window immediately?
And if we're not spending any money this summer because we're broke, it really doesn't matter who's managing us. Because no manager is salvaging a good league position with this awful squad.
No they don't have to back him, that concept needs to die a painful death. 99% of signings need to be for and by the club, the club needs to identify positions to strengthen regardless of who the head coach could be and the head coach job is to make it work.
Okay, lets talk about weak squad. When Ten Hag took over, we had Lindelof, Maguire, AWB, Shaw, Varane, Bruno, McTominay, Fred, Sancho, Rashford, Martial.
That is a weak squad too, we finished 3rd and a trophy in his first season. Even then, end of the season we were bad and we decided okay, lets back him again and see if we improve and got worse, still finished 8th and a trophy.
Now, with every extra training session that Amorim is doing, are we getting better or worse? We have had full week sessions for over a month now.
My point is not sack him, I want to see improved performances at least till the end of the season, to give us a reason to back him.
At the moment, he is worse than Ten Hag.
A coach is meant to improve players, which is why we hired a head coach. In almost every other club, coaches are tasked to improve players, only at United its not expected and it has to be transfer spend.
We are consistently stuck in this cycle. Hire a manager, give him 1 season free pass, make excuses such as he hasn't got his players, they cant fit his system, he needs x,y,z to play his system. Manager gets 150-200m per summer and slight improvement at the start and we get worse, then he is backed again because its his "first full season" and give him time to improve and get more players. Spend 150-200m again and then realise oops, its not improving, sack him and then bring another manager.
its the same cycle since Jose.
0 trophies and 2 non competitive top 4 finishes, you're right, that type of success isn't for everyone.
Let me get this straight first. I dont want him sacked.
This is the issue right, we need to spend money on the right profiles, who can play football regardless of the system, so its not about backing the manager, its about bringing players who have hunger, drive and technical ability.
Ideally, I want to see Amorim use this time from now to end of the season to show us that he is a good coach and can improve players and get us playing better.
The issue is, when it comes to us signing players, they may not suit the system, like Zirkzee or De Ligt.
So Amorim needs to make it work, we all know we are not going to get more than 3/4 signings in the summer, so its not like we will change completely, I just want to see that he can use some of these players.
The expectation should be to finish in a position equal or higher than where the club was when you took over. How much higher should depend on how "out of character" that position was. This expectation is pretty common; managers who can't achieve it, usually get sacked, which is why there's few examples of this kind of start turning into success at any club.
The difficult part is to know how "out of character" United's position really is. That's what most of the debate is about: how good is the squad really, how 'real' was last season's league position really, etc.
No, I'm not talking about squads again. It's been done to death already and it's just embarrassing for anyone to try and spin the 22/23 squad as anything like as weak as this one.
We're only stuck in the same cycle every other club is in. It's only a problem here because this club has backed managers with new contracts after they failed (Ole and Ten Hag) and made fecking abhorrent signings and contract extensions, that were all the exact opposite of good squad building, over a sustained period of time across several managers.
A manager should get bear minimum a summer pre season and transfer window and 6 months to show what they can do. If they haven't improved the football by that point they should be sacked. None of this shit about 2 or 3 year plans. That's always been my position on managers and it wont change, because it's the right one.
we were 13th when Amorim took over though, which accounts for some of that regression that was already kicking in - particularly in midfield. we also lost McTominay's last minute goals which got us out of plenty of holes last year. so to drop from 13 to 17 while trying to implement a new system mid season, with players that aren't all cut out for it, isn't particularly unexpected - except for the people in here.
@stefan92 addressed the xG point.
as for Onana, he is a confidence player, streaky, ultimately unreliable at a position where you need consistency.
I am not underestimating anyone's ability. I have been watching the PL for ages and can see how it'll be nearly impossible to blood in an 18 old keeper, who has only played for the unders, in a dysfunctional team in this brutal league when we sit 15th on the league currently. Onana played a CL final before coming here. He can't hack it in this league. It'd be to much of an ask to expect it from a 18 year old with no experience.
It's illogical because ETH spent 450m to build the current team which is fecking terrible. He's the one that built this ineffective forward line, the one that gave us no midfield and made losing a benchmark at United. He spent 3 transfer windows, 3 pre seasons and made the club an absolute shitshow.
If Amorim had come in the Summer, had a transfer window and a pre season and still been utterly shite then you'd have a point. But he's not had time to train, he's had minimal finacial backing despite our squad desperately needing reinforcement. The state of United right now is not on Amorim, it's on ETH and our Management for having shite recruitment for the past 6/8 years. ETH was just the final nail in the coffin. It doesn't matter what Manager we bring in at this point, we're honestly fecked for years. That's not being dramatic, that's assessing the state of our squad and looking at it objectively and seeing the amount of money required to turn it around. Money that the club don't have anymore. You're right other Managers have been able to improve Clubs, Amorim is simply yet another poor decision by the club. Not because he's a crap Manager, but because his ethos is to play his way no matter what. We don't have the money to finance it and bringing him in mid season to attempt it is Managerial suicide. I generally feel sorry for the guy, he's been setup to fail.
We've had 725 pages in this thread in like 4 months. Pretty sure he's being questioned.
Has he not shown he can use some these players?
Look, I am always one for giving managers time, I was patient with Ole, Ten Hag and will be with Amorim. I just dont think we can write off 8 months of the season because he didn't have a summer pre season.
He may come good but at the moment it isn't looking likely. We have been struggling for a while and it really worries me when I see the manager 3 months in saying... I didnt see what we did in training, after he has been harping on about I need time on the training pitch to improve us.