No. It's not as if he didn't start the next season.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
No. It's not as if he didn't start the next season.
This is somewhat irrelevant, if Amorim stays, goes, or is sent on sabbatical to Bora Bora - the whole idea now is Ineos (who did not sign Hojlund fyi) aren't signing players on the request of any manager. They are looking for profiles for each role and, as many have said, Dorgu is a good example given he can play LB/LWB. He is not specific to Amorim, he is specific to an area of weakness in the team regardless of who was managing us. Regardless of head coach, the last decade we've essentially been an EL team who occasionally pop our head into the CL and get knocked out early - Amorim is coming into with the first actual rebuild that has ever happened + new transfer policy of younger players who we want to develop. That gives him, already, good leeway because we are essentially guaranteed to finish in the bottom half of the table for the first time in however long and people seem ok with it as short term pain.
Entire point of a head coach is to coach. It is to work with the squad, develop the younger players, maximise the collective and win games. We have to see something on the pitch.
Just to be clear: Do our players have to have both hunger and drive, or is it sufficient to have either hunger or drive?
Asking for a friend (it’s not Luke).
Yes, 'rinse and repeat' and get the same outcome... it is time we stopped this cycle.
I am tempted to believe this time they have the man they want and they have decided to hold their nerve... but they also have to give him the players he needs, when he asks for them, and it will be up to Ruben to convince they players that he wants, to come to this club.
Unfortunately, they need both. Most our players have hunger for the pay cheque.
My friend (he also asked me to specify his name was not Luke) asked if it counts that he can drive, as well as being hungry. When I tried to clarify if he meant hungry to win, he winked at me and then 'sure'.
its well and good saying they have their man, that man also needs to give something in return for the faith?
Lets say, you hired a builder and he was told to do some works in the house and says.. I can't do it unless I have all brand new tools, the old ones dont work and they aren't good enough, you go and spend thousands on tools expecting him to do well?
Whilst you see all your friends and family, hire a builder that works with the tools there, with a few additions and they have a finished product.
You keep hiring new builders, giving them their tools and things never get built.
What makes you think that it's the man and that they held their nerves? And what you are describing is the same cycle that we have followed since 2013.
I think he should just explain the positions he needs and the club does the signings. Yoro, Ugarte, De Ligt and Dorgu look like decent players.
There’s this new food concept called the ‘Drive Thru’ - it’s a real game changer in both scenarios
ETH had to go when he had to go, no questions about that. I'm just pointing out how Amorim has been even worse than ETH was last season and yet some people don't question him at all.
Posters complaining about "the cycle" as if this isn't what 99% of clubs go through every one to three seasons and you don't see the fans going crazy about it.
No its not the new manager returning 'faith', what faith.... he told them he wanted to come at the end of the season, they forced his hand, come now or not at all?
As far as we can ascertain it will be Ruben telling them what tools he needs, saying when he gets them he will deliver what they want, we haven't turned the first page yet.
Because he is already a successful manager with his version of a 343 system. Sir Jim et al, want that success repeated at OT, they have made him an offer he (clearly) cannot refuse, even to the point that he will come early, when he wanted a delay. However there is no 'rinse and repeat' because nothing in the deal will happen until Ruben gets his men and the time to drill them into his system. Setting a 2 or 3 or even 4 year deadline does not come into it. There will have to be 'milestones' specific elements identified and evaluated of course, if they wish to apply timescales, then that should be up for discussion, in-project.
This is a one-off winner takes all project, if it fails then it will not only be Ruben departing but all those 'executives' who decided on the 343 approach, should be dispatched also... or at least be persuaded to fall on their swords'.
They all 'sink or swim' together, that should be what is different.
The man child ruined it.
You seem to accept 15th now, whereas 8th with an injured squad was catastrophic. You may be the single most agenda driven poster on here.
I‘ve been supportive of Amorim, but there‘s a limit.
13th when Amorim took over yes, but only like 4-5 points away from top 4 and had encouraging performances against Crystal Palace and West Ham where if we had finished our chances we would have won those games which our performances deserved.
And I just highlighted Onana as a example. The whole squad has been underperforming and not a single player appears to have improved. And that's on the coach for me.
It's unrealistic to expect the coach to have us performing better than relegation form? The new guy is somehow even worse than the last guy yet there's no issues with him at all and apparently things with magically get better with 4 new players.
I have seen nothing so far from Amorim that's worth persisting and that's my issue. It's a complete and utter mess on the pitch with any signs of it improving with more time. He's had the training time he craved for so long and we are barely any better than we did previously.
When you see fluking 8th as an achievement for your idol I think there's only one with an agenda.
Quick note: it should be up to Manchester United (more specifically the executives appointed by the ownership and the ownership itself by way of funding) to convince the players that Manchester United wants to come to Manchester United. Emphasis on Manchester United, not on the manager-of-the-hour. That is how it should be. That is how it is at Real Madrid, for example. The club signs players. Managers are asked to get the best out of the players at their disposal. Even someone as great and accomplished as Ancelotti has to toe the line, at the end of the day. Those who can't fulfill certain objectives and/or can't toe the line are sent packing. Those who flash early warning signs are sent packing post-haste (like Lopetegui or Benítez, who were relieved of their duties in a few months). This is one way of promoting continuity at the club (via the principal decision-making apparatus comprised of the director of football, technical director, head scout, lead analyst, chief executive and what have you). As opposed to see-sawing every time a new manager is appointed and recklessly letting them “build the team that they want” to put their stamp on the club over multiple transfer windows (with the club's own hard-earned money). Lessons need to be learned and our approach needs to change. Now more than ever, given the overwhelming impact of Erik ten Hag's miscalculations (which have brought the club to its knees, from a sporting standpoint and from an economic standpoint).
It doesn't answer the question, first because the same people didn't target him this summer when he was already available, instead they backed ETH and spent a small fortune in the transfer market. Surely if their plan was always to move to a 343, it should have been exposed this past summer with signings that matched the system or at the very least they wouldn't have spent that much money on a manager that didn't match with their mid to long term plans and if we follow your point not even their short term plans.
And there is absolutely a rinse and repeat because that's what we have done with all our managers, claim that they are the man from day one, give them the opportunity to ovehaul the team to their image aka "get his men" and we invariably ended in a worse situation because these moves are always manager centric instead of being club centric. It's always based on some blind faith that the current manager is a long term answer without having even shown that they were a short answer.
And there is no substantial difference for the club, you just added executives to the "sink or swim" cycle.
Over a whole season, you end up where you belong.
We are 17th since Amorim took over. Surely you should be losing your shit by now judging how you did last year.
Was there a gun to his head? Or was his family held captive that they forced his hand? he could have said no thanks.
Faith, maybe the millions of ££ they are paying him.
Its totally silly to say, oh Ruben didnt want to come mid season, so we should not judge him at all.. He is head coach, he wont tell them who he needs, the club will buy the players.
I dont want to believe he will not change.
He has to change. Even Arteta started with wingbacks, and changed into a flat 433.
He cant coach for 20+ years without changing his ways. He will change for sure, Amorim just needs to remove the handbrake from the team and we will perform.
ETH’s biggest error was building a squad that got worse, rather than better, year on year. And turning that round involves trying to reverse that trend. Two big (and arguably long overdue) calls Amorim had to make involved managing out Rashford and Antony. Something basically everyone on here agreed needed to happen.
Unfortunately this also means our squad got even weaker in the short term. For all their flaws those two players remain squad options capable of an occasional good performance and their backups, especially Hojlund, are miles below the standard we need.
So you’re expecting Amorim to get better performances out of a squad he’s never worked with before that has been weakened still further after ETH left. I do think that’s a little unrealistic, yes. Although I would obviously want to see the team playing better under him than we have so far. Because we’ve been so very bad. If we continue to play as badly as we have done recently I’ll have serious doubts about life under him next season. But I’m not in a tail spin about results so far and we’ve a load of games left to play. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with giving him a bit longer before writing him off.
Nah sadly its a worse squad than the one Ten Hag had performing like a 15th place one for over a year despite the £600m he spent.
I understand what you are saying, and appreciate why....but I would beg to differ.
First, (and foremost)we are not Real Madrid and not funded by the State.
Second, when a committee decides which players will come to the club (rather than just enabling) players to come to the club, the saying "a horse designed by a committee, finishes up becoming a camel", is more apt. The manager needs to chose his players, executives may opposes, offer reasons why not, ask the manager to look again, etc.
The only time (I would) agree with oversight which becomes on-site management, is if the decision is to appoint simply a coach not a manager.
However that would require
a) the executives know what they are doing, and carry total responsibility and
b) the coach is able to 'managed upwards' and when necessary be able to tell the executives, "you've made a mistake with this one, I cannot turn a sows ear into a silk purse".
His biggest error was being a bad coach, the gaping holes and obvious weaknesses in our tactical structures had nothing to do with team building but everything to do with a manager who for reasons refused to address.
They don't all sink together if the manager sinks the rest of them will be here tomorrow picking a new manager your naive to think otherwise
Even players in league 1 or 2 score goals, whenever they are. So it doesn't mean much.
Last Italian team to win UCL was in 2010. Some 15 years ago. In that period only 3 times has Italian team be in UCL final.
In that same 15 year period, there has been 2 English finals ( Spurs vs Liverpool, City vs Chelsea. ) thats is 4 times alone. In comparison 9 times has EPL teams been in UCL finals since 2010
Italian league is not up there anymore. Premier League is very very competitive
The same principles apply to clubs of smaller size.
In some ways even more so, as smaller clubs are often reliant on developing players and selling them for a profit. You can't do that if you need to back the manager with 'his players' all the time as it will limit your choices.
Really, and you do not think that is a major difference?
It is relatively easy to rid yourself of a manager, to see off executives (who are in some cases also owners) is a different thing altogether, harder than moving on players, and virtually impossible with such as Avrim and co!!!
For the club no, at least not a positive one. It's very easy for the owners to get rid of these executives, they cost very little in terms of wages compared to managers and players, they also cost far less in terms of acquisition fees. For the club it's negligeable especially if we follow your suggested time frame of 2 to 4 years.
The core issue for the club remains the same, what you are suggesting will create the exact same issues in terms of instability and cost because
Then, its 'rinse and repeat'... all over again.
Could see Sir Jim avoiding 'the cut' because he is an 'owner', but the others he's brought in...(sharp intake of breath here)
Exactly its not the money so much (£4.1m) for Ashworth, but he was moved on fairly quickly, what if he had been here for 3/4 years what damage limitation would we have then?
It changes and has changed nothing. Precisely because we kept the manager-centric approach.
I see there have been other responses but do you think it's Amorim fault Dalot isn't great moving the ball down the line as a wingback or do you think it's his fault Garnacho isn't great playing in the half spaces.
Or do you feel he should reverse to the idea which this guys supposedly are good, the ideas that got ETH sacked.
He also had nothing to do with poor recruitment like Hojlund.
Fact is we need suitable profiles before we can judge him. I don't know how successful he'll be but at the moment I acknowledge it's not his fault, if he gets say 4 signings in the summer added to Dorgu and there's no obvious improvement then I'll say differently.
And it's not true a managers like Pep don't have specific profiles they like in their, Pep would always have a ball playing goalie, ball playing center backs, technical wizards like The two Silva's, De bruyne, Xavi, Iniesta, Rodri, Bosquet for his system.
Give Pep a team without this profiles and see just what he'll be able to make of it.
It's difficult to answer your questions without a bit more context, I need three answers.
Does Garnacho have to focus his game in the half space? Is 20 years old Garnacho a finished product that can't be developed or supported through coaching?
Does Dalot has to be great at moving the ball down the line, is it a requirement for all wingbacks to be great at moving the ball?
Edit: For context, what if I tell you that one of Inter's starting wingback is less productive than Dalot at moving the ball?
Can Garnacho be retrained maybe, and you can see he is actually working with him but is he a natural at it obviously not, can he master it at the highest level because it requires different skill set from his strengths only time will tell. So you agree that they aren't the ideal profile, so naturally you don't get the ideal results.
Only one of them started in English football, keepers got (and still do) a lot less protection from referees than their European counterparts, De Gea was like a deer in the headlights when he started at United, even Dracula was better at dealing with crosses than he was then, making an academy keeper a starter in the PL would be suicidal
With the presser comments it just seems like Amorim hates his players.
Ideal profile for what? Footballers are almost never ideal by default, the role of a manager is to develop a team structure that puts players in the most optimal context but no two players are similar which means that with every single alternative player you will have to make adjustments. In this case, as I asked you why is it necessary for Garnacho to focus or be great in the half space and the same applies to Dalot for moving the ball forward?