Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

its well and good saying they have their man, that man also needs to give something in return for the faith?

Lets say, you hired a builder and he was told to do some works in the house and says.. I can't do it unless I have all brand new tools, the old ones dont work and they aren't good enough, you go and spend thousands on tools expecting him to do well?

Whilst you see all your friends and family, hire a builder that works with the tools there, with a few additions and they have a finished product.

You keep hiring new builders, giving them their tools and things never get built.
What a strange analogy man. Posters in this thread, who don't prefer Amorim, are competing who will sound more intelligent sometimes.
To go back to your analogy it's builders company and he needs to provide tools for his business to be competitive. It's an idirect charge to a customer, but more as an investment. Same as investing into players for your squad.

Now we are comparing
sports science with pipes and bricks.
 
And it's not true a managers like Pep don't have specific profiles they like in their, Pep would always have a ball playing goalie, ball playing center backs, technical wizards like The two Silva's, De bruyne, Xavi, Iniesta, Rodri, Bosquet for his system.
Give Pep a team without this profiles and see just what he'll be able to make of it.
The issue in these kinds of conversations is that what constitutes a "player profile" can be as limited or expansive as anyone wants, and "what you can make out of it" is also like that.

In Guardiola's first season at Barcelona, Busquets only started 16 league games, and Iniesta only started 22. Looking at a 7-game stretch that Iniesta missed, the midfield in those games included Gudjohnsen, Yaya Touré, Keita, and Hleb. Actually in 5 of those 7 games, neither Busquets nor Iniesta played, just Xavi and two other guys.

Record: 6 wins, 1 draw, 20 goals scored, 2 goals conceded.
 
I am not underestimating anyone's ability. I have been watching the PL for ages and can see how it'll be nearly impossible to blood in an 18 old keeper, who has only played for the unders, in a dysfunctional team in this brutal league when we sit 15th on the league currently. Onana played a CL final before coming here. He can't hack it in this league. It'd be to much of an ask to expect it from a 18 year old with no experience.
Appreciate your opinion, I understand the reluctance to play a young keeper, I just disagree. He's 19, he's played men's football on loan and was recalled to train with the United first team (I would think for a reason). Jack Butland was in the Euro's squad and making his England debut at 19, it's just not as impossible as you think that Harrison could make his debut for a team with essentially nothing to play for in the league.

Of course nobody expects or expected him to play for the first team this season, but he's a really, really talented goalkeeper and sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise. Most youth player debuts come from a forced hand and despite the fact Onana isn't injured, I think he really has been bad enough to warrant trying something else.

Perhaps we'll just continue with Onana chucking the ball in his own net instead, we'll see.
 
The issue in these kinds of conversations is that what constitutes a "player profile" can be as limited or expansive as anyone wants, and "what you can make out of it" is also like that.

In Guardiola's first season at Barcelona, Busquets only started 16 league games, and Iniesta only started 22. Looking at a 7-game stretch that Iniesta missed, the midfield in those games included Gudjohnsen, Yaya Touré, Keita, and Hleb. Actually in 5 of those 7 games, neither Busquets nor Iniesta played, just Xavi and two other guys.

Record: 6 wins, 1 draw, 20 goals scored, 2 goals conceded.

And with Guardiola the same can be said about the way he used Abidal, Adriano or maxwell.
 
Just to be clear: Do our players have to have both hunger and drive, or is it sufficient to have either hunger or drive?

Asking for a friend (it’s not Luke).
Unfortunately, they need both. Most our players have hunger for the pay cheque.

My friend (he also asked me to specify his name was not Luke) asked if it counts that he can drive, as well as being hungry. When I tried to clarify if he meant hungry to win, he winked at me and then 'sure'.

There’s this new food concept called the ‘Drive Thru’ - it’s a real game changer in both scenarios
I guess that answers all relevant questions anyone should have about what kind of players profiles we need to adress in the summer. Good Drive-Thru Technique.
 
Yes I would ignore 99% of the ups and downs (1% being if we start getting hammered 5-0 etc.) as long as we get through the rest of the season relatively unscathed. 10th would be a great salvage job, 17th would be horrendous but either way, he gets preseason and whatever transfers we can muster.

This is where my opinion differs from people wanting him out and where we have different expectations and conclusions. I believe Amorim's CV, past achievements, management style and communication style shows a manager that knows what he is doing and is able to compete among the best, if given a fair opportunity. This is actually the same belief I had with ETH, but not with Moyes, for example. This belief (not totally unsubstantiated, he has credentials to his name), along with him coming in mid-season to our mess of a club, is why I feel he should at least get a chance to prove himself next season. If we continue to flounder next Oct/Nov, then yes, I would start to think we need a change as well. But I will not write off a top young managerial prospect after 3 months.

On buying 3-4 elite players, that's the thing - I don't believe we need 3-4 'elite' players, maybe an elite ST, but it's more like we need 3-4 players that have a different profile to what we currently have. Physically stronger, a bit better technically, motivated and fresh. That's really all Dorgu is and he's already close to our best performer the last few games.

Who is that elite striker that is obtainable for Ruben if our situation remains the same?
 
This is the thing right, when you buy top quality players, they can play multiple systems.

Look at top teams, and their top players VVD, Konate, Macca, Salah can all play in any system. When they sign players its not for one system either.

Arsenal are similar, Saliba, Rice, Odegard, Saka can all play various systems.

If the player has all round ability, you can play 2/3/4 at the back variations of whatever system, they adapt because they are good footballers. Yes, in some systems you need the odd specialist but you dont need 11 system specialists.
You don't even need top players for that in my opinion, pretty much any professional footballer should be able to play in most formations to some degree. You still have to be aware of and cater to/for any significant individual strengths or weaknesses in the team regardless of any given formation/system though.

In my opinion, Amorim now, and Ten Hag before him are making a basic error in that the way they are setting up the team / instructing them to play is often exposing the lack of pace/mobility of some of our players, or not really playing to the strengths of some players in other instances.

That's where adaptability comes in, being adaptable doesn't necessarily mean switching formation, it's about recognising that Maguire, for example, is really slow for a pro centre back, so having one of his centre half partners aggressively step up is going to leave him under pressure each time the ball isn't won back in the first instance, as he's not quick enough across the ground to deal with the consequence of that. Same goes for leaving the midfield two chasing shadows too often, when one of them is Casemiro/Eriksen.

If people genuinely believe a near whole squad needs turned over to play a particular way, that would mean that system/manager isn't right for the club at this particular time.

Yes you can build with the goal of having an ideal player in place for each position, rarely is that achievable though, you'll always have players come in and flop, injuries requiring makeshift replacements, or back ups with different qualities, you need to be able to make that work to show quality as a manager.

For me, a manager's philosophy is never king, they have to be able to balance that with the reality of their squad to be anywhere near successful.

The only sustained success I've seen in my lifetime based more on philosophy than adaptability is Guardiola. And the argument against that is he's done so with pretty much an ideal player in every position and great squad depth, with a tendency to walk away when he no longer has that. Will be interesting to see if he stays at City for any great length of time now.
 
The issue in these kinds of conversations is that what constitutes a "player profile" can be as limited or expansive as anyone wants, and "what you can make out of it" is also like that.

In Guardiola's first season at Barcelona, Busquets only started 16 league games, and Iniesta only started 22. Looking at a 7-game stretch that Iniesta missed, the midfield in those games included Gudjohnsen, Yaya Touré, Keita, and Hleb. Actually in 5 of those 7 games, neither Busquets nor Iniesta played, just Xavi and two other guys.

Record: 6 wins, 1 draw, 20 goals scored, 2 goals conceded.
Poor Pep, having to make do with Xavi and Yaya Toure in midfield for a few games.
 
You don't even need top players for that in my opinion, pretty much any professional footballer should be able to play in most formations to some degree. You still have to be aware of and cater to/for any significant individual strengths or weaknesses in the team regardless of any given formation/system though.

In my opinion, Amorim now, and Ten Hag before him are making a basic error in that the way they are setting up the team / instructing them to play is often exposing the lack of pace/mobility of some of our players, or not really playing to the strengths of some players in other instances.

That's where adaptability comes in, being adaptable doesn't necessarily mean switching formation, it's about recognising that Maguire, for example, is really slow for a pro centre back, so having one of his centre half partners aggressively step up is going to leave him under pressure each time the ball isn't won back in the first instance, as he's not quick enough across the ground to deal with the consequence of that. Same goes for leaving the midfield two chasing shadows too often, when one of them is Casemiro/Eriksen.

If people genuinely believe a near whole squad needs turned over to play a particular way, that would mean that system/manager isn't right for the club at this particular time.

Yes you can build with the goal of having an ideal player in place for each position, rarely is that achievable though, you'll always have players come in and flop, injuries requiring makeshift replacements, or back ups with different qualities, you need to be able to make that work to show quality as a manager.

For me, a manager's philosophy is never king, they have to be able to balance that with the reality of their squad to be anywhere near successful.

The only sustained success I've seen in my lifetime based more on philosophy than adaptability is Guardiola. And the argument against that is he's done so with pretty much an ideal player in every position and great squad depth, with a tendency to walk away when he no longer has that. Will be interesting to see if he stays at City for any great length of time now.

I agree, which is my point. We cannot keep making excuses for managers "But But But.... he doesn't have his players or players that can play his system". It defeats the purpose of being a coach then doesn't it? who needs to improve players.

These are professional footballers, you should be able to coach without needing 15 new players. Only at United we moan moan and moan about it. Liverpool signed 1 player under a new manager, different system and are going to win the league.

Yet, our manager cannot improve players to better than 15th place in the league.
 
The issue in these kinds of conversations is that what constitutes a "player profile" can be as limited or expansive as anyone wants, and "what you can make out of it" is also like that.

In Guardiola's first season at Barcelona, Busquets only started 16 league games, and Iniesta only started 22. Looking at a 7-game stretch that Iniesta missed, the midfield in those games included Gudjohnsen, Yaya Touré, Keita, and Hleb. Actually in 5 of those 7 games, neither Busquets nor Iniesta played, just Xavi and two other guys.

Record: 6 wins, 1 draw, 20 goals scored, 2 goals conceded.
Did Messi play?
 
I agree, which is my point. We cannot keep making excuses for managers "But But But.... he doesn't have his players or players that can play his system". It defeats the purpose of being a coach then doesn't it? who needs to improve players.

These are professional footballers, you should be able to coach without needing 15 new players. Only at United we moan moan and moan about it. Liverpool signed 1 player under a new manager, different system and are going to win the league.

Yet, our manager cannot improve players to better than 15th place in the league.

Comparing the Liverpool squad Slot inherited with ours is - well, insane.
 
Ideal profile for what? Footballers are almost never ideal by default, the role of a manager is to develop a team structure that puts players in the most optimal context but no two players are similar which means that with every single alternative player you will have to make adjustments. In this case, as I asked you why is it necessary for Garnacho to focus or be great in the half space and the same applies to Dalot for moving the ball forward?
Because that's how the system works, if you watch Amorim Sporting you'll know just how vital it for the wingback to have that quality, its often safe passing except for the wingback who take risks to move the team up pitch, the team moves the ball side to side to give them one v one situations. Just like with Pep it's necessary for the goalie and center backs and to be comfortable playing out from the back and even under pressure, sweap the guys at City with players who can't do it, or ask Pep to coach players without this skillset and see how well that will turn out.
 
His biggest error was being a bad coach, the gaping holes and obvious weaknesses in our tactical structures had nothing to do with team building but everything to do with a manager who for reasons refused to address.

I would disagree with that. For any football club to spend as much money as we did with ETH in charge and somehow end up with this squad, the overwhelming memory of his time in charge will be much more about horrible transfer dealings than whatever tactics he used. Besides, a lot of the flaws in his tactics and approach came about from trying to get a tune out of a woefully mismatched and incompatible bunch of players.

It's actually similar to what we're seeing now. All the tactics nerds so obsessed with formations and tactics they can't see how the manager is being completely hamstrung by inadequate players in all of our most important positions. Which is going to kill us, no matter how the manager lines them up.
 
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That's the issue though, why can't we play like that more often?

Is it the players, manager, coaching, a bit of everything?
Exactly, it's pretty irrelevant going to these places, playing ok and getting a result if you're going to follow up by getting done by Crystal Palace, or Bournemouth or whoever it may be at home the next week.
 
I would disagree with that. For any football club to spend as much money as we did with ETH in charge and somehow end up with this squad, the overwhelming memory of his time in charge will be much more about horrible transfer dealings than whatever tactics he used. Besides, a lot of the flaws in his tactics and approach came about from trying to get a tune out of a woefully mismatched and incompatible bunch of players.

So you don't think that coaching and tactical choices are the main influences when it comes to a manager selecting players to purchase and also failing to make good use of them?
 
The whole squad has been underperforming and not a single player appears to have improved. And that's on the coach for me.

It's unrealistic to expect the coach to have us performing better than relegation form? The new guy is somehow even worse than the last guy yet there's no issues with him at all and apparently things with magically get better with 4 new players.

I have seen nothing so far from Amorim that's worth persisting and that's my issue. It's a complete and utter mess on the pitch with any signs of it improving with more time. He's had the training time he craved for so long and we are barely any better than we did previously.

You keep ignoring the fact they’re being asked to learn a new system, one that is clearly beyond the capability of some of these players. It’s exposing the limitations within the squad - and there are quite a few limitations.
 
I agree, which is my point. We cannot keep making excuses for managers "But But But.... he doesn't have his players or players that can play his system". It defeats the purpose of being a coach then doesn't it? who needs to improve players.

These are professional footballers, you should be able to coach without needing 15 new players. Only at United we moan moan and moan about it. Liverpool signed 1 player under a new manager, different system and are going to win the league.

Yet, our manager cannot improve players to better than 15th place in the league.

Why are you always ignoring our forward and midfield choice selections? Where are the goals coming from with the selection of players we have available to us? Don't say Rashford either, he's only scored more than 10 PL goals in 3 Seasons. Who thinks we need 15 new players anyway? All you've done today is argue in extremes.
 
So you don't think that coaching and tactical choices are the main influences when it comes to a manager selecting players to purchase and also failing to make good use of them?

I don't think I agree with this statement "the gaping holes and obvious weaknesses in our tactical structures had nothing to do with team building"
 
Because that's how the system works, if you watch Amorim Sporting you'll know just how vital it for the wingback to have that quality, its often safe passing except for the wingback who take risks to move the team up pitch, the team moves the ball side to side to give them one v one situations. Just like with Pep it's necessary for the goalie and center backs and to be comfortable playing out from the back and even under pressure, sweap the guys at City with players who can't do it, or ask Pep to coach players without this skillset and see how well that will turn out.

Why though? What is the system supposed to achieve and is that the only way to achieve the same thing?

As an example Barcelona under Pep. The left fullbacks were Abidal, Adriano and later Maxwell. Which one is ideal and is the system broken with any option? The answer is no one and no. And the illustration is simple, with Abidal there is less attacking supporting from the fullback so Busquets would step up, Iniesta would play more in the left inside channel. With Maxwell or Adriano, Busquets would drop closer to the CBs, Maxwell/Adriano would provide more overlaps and Iniesta would largely stay in a more traditional CM area. It's the same system, same framework but different dynamics because the players are different. Similarly Man City would operate slightly differently depending on whether Pep selected Stones or Walker as a fullback. The same was true for Rafinha instead of Kimmich or Lahm, again the same is true with any combination of Tiago, Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez or Schweinsteiger in midfield.

What you are suggesting is only a thing for a genuinely awful coach and based on Amorim's own statement it doesn't apply to him.
 
Why are you always ignoring our forward and midfield choice selections? Where are the goals coming from with the selection of players we have available to us? Don't say Rashford either, he's only scored more than 10 PL goals in 3 Seasons. Who thinks we need 15 new players anyway? All you've done today is argue in extremes.

Its the coach's job to get the goals... not mine. Arsenal have no CF, they get goals, City have won the league with no CF as well in the past. Madrid won the CL last season with no CF.

Anyway why do I bother with fans who think coaches have no say in how the team plays and creates chances, all they need is a goal scorer and the goals will magically appear.

Its a big asks for a Manutd coach to get his team to score more goals than Brentford, Fulham, Bournemouth, Forrest right? We need someone who scores 10PL goals minimum a season for more than 3 seasons for us to score goals.
 
I don't think I agree with this statement "the gaping holes and obvious weaknesses in our tactical structures had nothing to do with team building"

Fair enough, then why these holes disappeared when he made adjustments during the last weeks of 23-24? And the same thing happened during RVN's interim?
 
Fair enough, then why these holes disappeared when he made adjustments during the last weeks of 23-24? And the same thing happened during RVN's interim?

Because you're talking about a very small sample of games when either we played unusually well, or the opposition played unusually badly. Same reason we've managed to look decent under Amorim in a few games already.
 
Why though? What is the system supposed to achieve and is that the only way to achieve the same thing?
As an example Barcelona under Pep. The left fullbacks were Abidal, Adriano and later Maxwell. Which one is ideal and is the system broken with any option? The answer is no one and no. And the illustration is simple, with Abidal there is less attacking supporting from the fullback so Busquets would step up, Iniesta would play more in the left inside channel. With Maxwell or Adriano, Busquets would drop closer to the CBs, Maxwell/Adriano would provide more overlaps and Iniesta would largely stay in a more traditional CM area. It's the same system, same framework but different dynamics because the players are different. Similarly Man City would operate slightly differently depending on whether Pep selected Stones or Walker as a fullback. The same was true for Rafinha instead of Kimmich or Lahm, again the same is true with any combination of Tiago, Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez or Schweinsteiger in midfield.

What you are suggesting is only a thing for a genuinely awful coach and based on Amorim's own statement it doesn't apply to him.
So your overall point is that we're bad because Amorim is bad at his job?
 
You keep ignoring the fact they’re being asked to learn a new system, one that is clearly beyond the capability of some of these players. It’s exposing the limitations within the squad - and there are quite a few limitations.

Plenty of these players have played 3 at the back before, especially international level.
 
Why are you always ignoring our forward and midfield choice selections? Where are the goals coming from with the selection of players we have available to us? Don't say Rashford either, he's only scored more than 10 PL goals in 3 Seasons. Who thinks we need 15 new players anyway? All you've done today is argue in extremes.

It's also up to the coach to squeeze more goals out of a team, by setting the team up to create chances and improve the odds of it happening. If his system is working in this league we'll surely be starting to at least create more chances for them to miss, which we aren't even doing currently.
 
Firstly, when was the last time a manager had 8 weeks pre season? We start pre season early-mid july, with early August PL start.. that is 4/5 weeks of pre season. He has had 4/5 weeks where we have 1 PL game per week and he has now shown any signs of improvement, not even 2% improvement.

We will make signings but I dont think we need to target players that can only play this 1 system.

We dont know that about City, he didn't go there so all of it is just assumptions. I am sure you assumed City to win the PL this season and challenge too.
I've maybe said before, but there's way too much weight of importance given to pre-season, not just on the cafe but in the media too. It's for building a bit of fitness, carrying out some experiments and going on tour to make the club some money. We're not even seeing some teams properly match fit until about a month into the season these days.

I don't think I can remember a team finishing a season being shite and then looking incredibly competent the next just because the manager had a pre-season.
 
So your overall point is that we're bad because Amorim is bad at his job?

In this conversation? No, the point is that no manager should base everything on the concept of ideal player because it's an unlikely scenario, nearly no manager is in a position to get 11 ideal players let alone 16 or 25. So no manager should have a system that breaks down outside of the perfect theoretical fits.

In general? Yes, Amorim since November is bad at his job. 15 points out of 15 games is objectively bad, with that kind of record in 23-24 you are 16th.
 
Oh wow! Peter was a starting keeper as a teenager in Danish first division. You have changed me mind. I think we should throw in an academy keeper into the fire pit asap.
Not anticipating you changing your stance. Just a weird thing to dig your heels in given the evidence, but the username checks out. Onana deserving to play based on his age...
 
In this conversation? No, the point is that no manager should base everything on the concept of ideal player because it's an unlikely scenario, nearly no manager is in a position to get 11 ideal players let alone 16 or 25. So no manager should have a system that breaks down outside of the perfect theoretical fits.

In general? Yes, Amorim since November is bad at his job. 15 points out of 15 games is objectively bad, with that kind of record in 23-24 you are 16th.
So we should let him go then?
 
I've maybe said before, but there's way too much weight of importance given to pre-season, not just on the cafe but in the media too. It's for building a bit of fitness, carrying out some experiments and going on tour to make the club some money. We're not even seeing some teams properly match fit until about a month into the season these days.

I don't think I can remember a team finishing a season being shite and then looking incredibly competent the next just because the manager had a pre-season.

Thank you. Most of our players join late anyway, last season most of the internationals had like 1 week pre season, iirc Mainoo, Bruno didnt even go to pre season tour.

Over the years, teams have built that momentum from the season before, which is the point I am making. If we see improvements from now till the end of the season, there is more a chance in him doing well.

Pre season can help if the whole squad is there but its not going to change how we play too much.
 
Because you're talking about a very small sample of games when either we played unusually well, or the opposition played unusually badly. Same reason we've managed to look decent under Amorim in a few games already.
Fair enough.
 
I'd even be fine replacing Amorim in the summer if there was a coach out there who was a surer bet. But we missed out on all of them because of the clown show last summer.


Even the most 'exciting' options still around like Inzaghi or Alonso ... firstly they categorically would not want to manage us right now, we would 100% be Spurs'd and get publicly rejected. And secondly, they dont have any Prem experience or any accomplishments that carry more weight than Amorim's. And with this squad would just as likely crumble.

So what does that leave? Paying £20m compensation to replace Amorim with Frank (probably also reject us) or Southgate? Yeah, nah.
 
I'd even be fine replacing Amorim in the summer if there was a coach out there who was a surer bet. But we missed out on all of them because of the clown show last summer.


Even the most 'exciting' options still around like Inzaghi or Alonso ... firstly they categorically would not want to manage us right now, we would 100% be Spurs'd and get publicly rejected. And secondly, they dont have any Prem experience or any accomplishments that carry more weight than Amorim's. And with this squad would just as likely crumble.

So what does that leave? Paying £20m compensation to replace Amorim with Frank (probably also reject us) or Southgate? Yeah, nah.

Ideally, you want to see an improvement from Amorim from now to the end of the season.

I dont think we will get another manager, especially those 2 names mentioned.