Is that not tactics no? Against city when we played in a shape he was very good.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Partially, the other part is that Ugarte's positioning isn't actually good, he is reactive and makes good tackles highlights but it's almost always in the context of him being out of position and trying to fix it. And regarding his positioning he seldomly limit passing options for the opposition, so unless he is able to make a tackle a traffic cone is as useful.
Amorim is the least of the issues this club faces, and the sooner people realise this, the sooner we can begin to start actually repairing the systemic damage the Glazers have done. That doesn't mean winning the league any time soon, it means ridding ourselves of this cycle of chasing our tales and perpetuating this toxic narrative spewed by the media, keeping us mired in the smaller picture, too busy infighting among ourselves to see that we are being fed endless media after endless media, that tells us what we should think about our own club by others who mean to further their own agendas. It seeps into the club, slowly rotting it from the inside out, and I would go as far as saying that we as fans, are now playing an active part in our own demise at this point. I was shocked being at OT for the Newcastle game, listening to the fans booing our own players off the field, being surrounded by people calling our own players every name under the sun and not having a single word to say about the Newcastle players. They might not be able to hear us, but they can feel the hatred towards them. That pitch must feel horrible to play on. It must be awful. Amorim has hinted at it, without directly calling us fans out on it, as to not rock the boat too much this early in his tenure. But it's true, and there's a reason why we've lost more at home this season, and there's a reason why the players who've gone out on loan look like new players.
Look, people have eyes, they can see how turgid the situation is right now, I get that. I'm not arguing that the football is acceptable. It's far from it. But we have to stop calling for emotional decisions to be made in a context that requires objective thinking. I know I'm not perfect in that and I've done the same in the past, but now it's clearer than it's ever been. We're trapped in a death spiral and we as fans are caught up in it. Without doing any research, I can probably say with confidence we are one of the most "talked" about clubs online. Articles, memes, videos, anything United related, it all drives revenue. This proliferation of social and journalistic media has been both a blessing and a curse for this club. On one hand, it's exploded the club's brand to the very the top of the sport, allowing it to spend far beyond what its current output in terms of on field success warrants. The curse is that the only ones well placed to benefit from this unprecedented exposure is the Glazers. They profit, whether by design or by sheer luck in the timing of their buying of the club just after the ".com bubble" implosion, paving the way for the monetisation of casual internet browsing, and the clicks on the content with the club's name on it, good or bad, they get paid either way, so why should they care, they'll continue to profit by this narrative of a once giant in world football, tragically fallen from grace into a doom loop that transcends mediocrity and even belief. Now we have a fanbase stuck in this echo chamber of negativity, the likes of which Liverpool, Arsenal and City could never conceive of, because they just don't have the numbers. Anyway, I'm in danger of entering conspiracy theorist territory, but I'll say one last thing. There's a reason why we see the sheer amount of content pumped out about this club in the manner and frequency it is. Every last detail and decision disseminated for us, the players scrutinised, even ridiculed after every performance. The media slowly turning on Amorim and we're here lapping it all up, helping them to get engagements and interactions on their content. You only have to look online today and I've spotted at least 4 different negative articles about the club. They're killing us, and we're helping them.
We were warned. It's going to get worse before it gets better. Amorim needs time and we as fans need to have the stomach for it, because there is no quick fix to the years of damage inflicted upon this club. So just get behind him, or don't and stop watching and save yourself the trouble of further suffering. He said that's what it's going to be. We're past the point of no return now, and the only option is to stay the course because there's no money left to undo the new direction we've started upon. That isn't the only issue we're facing as a club right now, unfortunately, things run deeper, but what we can do right now, that we as fans have control of, is stop perpetuating the opinions, memes, videos, and any negative content related to the club from the media that only undermines Amorim's efforts and serves only to further agendas to keep us locked exactly where we are.
Look, people have eyes, they can see how turgid the situation is right now, I get that. I'm not arguing that the football is acceptable. It's far from it. But we have to stop calling for emotional decisions to be made in a context that requires objective thinking. I know I'm not perfect in that and I've done the same in the past, but now it's clearer than it's ever been. We're trapped in a death spiral and we as fans are caught up in it. Without doing any research, I can probably say with confidence we are one of the most "talked" about clubs online. Articles, memes, videos, anything United related, it all drives revenue. This proliferation of social and journalistic media has been both a blessing and a curse for this club. On one hand, it's exploded the club's brand to the very the top of the sport, allowing it to spend far beyond what its current output in terms of on field success warrants. The curse is that the only ones well placed to benefit from this unprecedented exposure is the Glazers. They profit, whether by design or by sheer luck in the timing of their buying of the club just after the ".com bubble" implosion, paving the way for the monetisation of casual internet browsing, and the clicks on the content with the club's name on it, good or bad, they get paid either way, so why should they care, they'll continue to profit by this narrative of a once giant in world football, tragically fallen from grace into a doom loop that transcends mediocrity and even belief. Now we have a fanbase stuck in this echo chamber of negativity, the likes of which Liverpool, Arsenal and City could never conceive of, because they just don't have the numbers. Anyway, I'm in danger of entering conspiracy theorist territory, but I'll say one last thing. There's a reason why we see the sheer amount of content pumped out about this club in the manner and frequency it is. Every last detail and decision disseminated for us, the players scrutinised, even ridiculed after every performance. The media slowly turning on Amorim and we're here lapping it all up, helping them to get engagements and interactions on their content. You only have to look online today and I've spotted at least 4 different negative articles about the club. They're killing us, and we're helping them.
We were warned. It's going to get worse before it gets better. Amorim needs time and we as fans need to have the stomach for it, because there is no quick fix to the years of damage inflicted upon this club. So just get behind him, or don't and stop watching and save yourself the trouble of further suffering. He said that's what it's going to be. We're past the point of no return now, and the only option is to stay the course because there's no money left to undo the new direction we've started upon. That isn't the only issue we're facing as a club right now, unfortunately, things run deeper, but what we can do right now, that we as fans have control of, is stop perpetuating the opinions, memes, videos, and any negative content related to the club from the media that only undermines Amorim's efforts and serves only to further agendas to keep us locked exactly where we are.
Fairly certain these are so bad they aren't even in the tier list
I've seen enough with Amorim already but feck me those would be uninspiring appointments. Enough with the Poch links already.
Couldn't disagree more, the irony is you are making a reactive observation based on likely watching football based on single moments, rather than a passage of play - every single league he has been in he's been either top/near the top for interceptions, defensive duels, that is not a player who happens to be out of position all the time and somehow magically scrambles back into a good position every time, that is absurd. That is whilst playing different roles and variations of CM/DM - for Enrique his role was completely different to under Amorim for example. He's also not that rapid, so it's not like he is able to recover quickly either.
Had you mentioned he's too aggressive/front foot - I would disagree but say that is a fair observation, similarly if you said he's not got an expansive passing range you would want in his role, again completely fair opinion. Both of these can be backed up by data. Even if you simply said you want someone more athletic/fast, it is something we can agree is not necessarily his main strength. But his entire game (and why he is so highly rated) is based on work rate and positioning. Even here with all the issues our team has he is 92nd percentile for interceptions and 99th percentile for tackles. That isn't a player who is "almost always...out of position".
Poch is another system manager who would probably need another 500 million of investment and 30 new players so that he can reach the dizzy heights of 4th.
I've had it with these systems managers with zero knowledge of football outside of their system
I've had it with these systems managers with zero knowledge of football outside of their system
Sure. I'm fine with the idea that I know nothing and are wrong.
Not that its ever going to happen anyways (cuz Amorim will be fine eventually) but Poch is definitely not a system manager. I've seen try a number of different formations although he favours 4-2-3-1.
I thought we all wanted a system manager? The past few years with Ole, Rangnick, ETH we’ve all been saying we’ve got no style or set system.
I think a majority of our players could be a squad member in a top six team and probably only Bruno in with a shout of starting. As a collective?
Where do the goals come from even when they are all on form?
What is our best back four/five? Who is our starting midfield partnership?
Is Onana capable of reducing his howler rate?
All of those questions we can't answer, and neither can Amorim, because we have too many "squad" level players or youngsters who should be starting 15 games a season at most.
Lads no manager in world will get this current squad of players to next level. There not good enough.
In general? Bit extreme given I was only talking about Ugarte's positioning.
Maybe we did 3 years ago. But the drawbacks of hiring such managers have become clearer and clearer in the last 3 years.
When the system fails, it really fails spectacularly.
Nobody expects them to go to 'next level', people just expect us to not be utterly horrible.
Nah.. why have continuity, when we can change managers and styles and players for that managers style every 2-3 years. Much better imo?
Also feel sorry for Amorim, he came in the middle of the season to an already messy team and establishment, which has only gotten worse and worse in just a few months. Considering all that has come out with the clubs financial situation etc.
That's what you insinuated and it's fine.
Not saying ETH was good enough either way, but it mostly boils down to our recruitment. If the club had of brought in even one player of the quality of Liverpool, City and Arsenal's starting attackers, it'd of course help. Look what Rashford's 2 month purple patch covered up, a lot of cracks. Imagine if we had a consistent version of that, but we've recruited utter thrash over the past 3 years.
No. I think we wanted what Sir Jim Ratcliffe promised:
Not the coach, or any coach, deciding how we play. The club deciding how we want to play and who is the best coach to execute that vision and the best players to make it happen.
At a club the size of Manchester United, it should never be entirely down to the whim of the first team coach to decide how we play. What's the point in having a Director of Football/Technical Director if that's going to happen?
And if the club has decided 3-4-3/3-5-2 is the way, then the club should restructure the academy sides and its recruitment priorities to reflect that.
We should not be in a position where its literally all on Amorim, or any coach, and if they leave or get fired the whole thing gets torn up.
I have lost faith in Amorim but that doesn't excuse the suits for setting him up to fail. Its like they bought a pit bull and are surprised it tries to bite people. We all knew before he arrived that he would stick to 3-4-3. Not giving him the tools to succeed is on the club.
PS) Nothing would make me happier than Amorim proving me very wrong. I am fed up of seeing us lose. I just don't see it working with this squad, in these financial circumstances. I think the club made the wrong call appointing him when they knew circumstances would make it hard to back him and they weren't doing enough at academy level to provide the answers we're not able to buy in.
Our recruitment is directly influenced by the manager though. If they are intentionally biased to players they've worked with before, even if the scouting department gives 5 possible options we'll still go for the managers choice.
And it's another reason why I'm a bit worried that we seem to be fixated on Gyokeres. It's all a bit deja vu to me.
I mean, INEOS have gotten every major decision wrong since taking over. Its not inconceivable that they've gotten this decision wrong too.
They'll only have set him up to fail if they sack him, which seems unlikely. He knew when he came in that he'd have to endure a turbulent rest of the season, he said this publicly when he came in.
At this time there's little to say they're not behind him and won't give him the support he needs for next season. Externally coming in early may have led to a bit of reputational bruising but I think the club will treat the summer as the real start of his management.
It wasn't a good decision to have him start early but it is what it is. In my view INEOS didn't want an interim doing so well that they were once again forced to back a manager they didn't believe in that's the scarring from Ten Hag.
I have reread what I wrote and find it strange this is your takeaway. If you can point out where I insinuate you know nothing in general, it would be helpful.
I would say, from the comment I reacted to and the subsequent deliberately deflected reply you have given, it appears you had not thought through what you were saying about his positioning + now wish to swiftly move the conversation away from that topic.
I've been alluding to this too, club can't get even one decision right at the moment. It's been a masterclass in incompetency even by our standards post SAF.
I don't want to switch any conversation, I said what I wanted to say and you said what you wanted to say. I accept your interpretation of things including how my opinion was formed. At the end of the day, if I'm wrong United wins.
I'm very worried with our transfer links also, we seem to be continuing to go down the route of signing more players our new manager knows and has worked with before. If that player is Ibrahimovic like under Mourinho, there's no worries because you know what you're getting. Every signing is a gamble technically, but you also need to be in a position to make these gambles. We're currently not in that position.
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More than that, they knew he would not change; they did perhaps hope he might get lucky and save them some money if he can turn the proverbial " sows ear into a silk purse".
In tempting an apparently (sought after) young manager, to go early (or if he didn't, to maybe not go at all) against his own judgement; and after 'cutting the slack' all over the club, and putting many noses out of joint among those remaining, and also apparently be willing to get rid of any player, if they make enough out of it, ...and putting up the price of tickets.... they are 'stress testing' coaching/playing staff, general staff and supporters, all at once.
There has to be some method in their madness... somewhere....surely??
Is this turbulence though? Seems more like a plane doing a nosedive than turbulence.
Ok fair, I don't think Ugarte is perfect for what it is worth. But I do think he has a key role for us in the team moving forwards.
ETH averaged 67 points over two seasons with 74 points and 60 Points, that’s would be Top 5, sometimes 3rd and sometimes 4th in 7 out of the last 10 seasons, more importantly 67 points would be top 6 every season bar one in last 10 years and that’s was when Jose got 69 points!Top 6 team. Who on earth is scoring the goals for such a ridiculous claim?
The real issue here is Ruben has no body of work as evidence in the PL that he can achieve 1.76 points per game which is what’s needed to achieve Top 6 Team.
He is currently achieving 57% of that target, that’s way too much to make up when you’re a rookie, inflexible and your squad is pretty much a poor average one as well. I repeat I’m a fan of Ruben but if he loses his next two games, his position is untenable and he must be Sacked as a 64% loss rate in your first 16 PL games is unacceptable, he would cost maybe £12m to pay off and this can be paid over next two seasons, it’s no different than having a player Like DVB on your payroll for 2. Years.
Xavi is currently available and has won a domestic league in a big 3 League in Europe plus the squad would suit his 433 system. And he was obviously one of the two options originally in November.
And I think that when the honeymoon will be over he will be a member of the deadwood club unless he improves drastically in terms of positioning and passing.
I won‘t bother I saw your tagline.
The deadwood club on here seems to expand weekly, but memberships will magically be revoked once we, eventually, buck up our ideas.
I can't belive how many have already turned their back on the manager.
But we’re saying it’s failed without Amorim yet having a spending window.
Untenable
The guy has been here since November, with a squad we all said was crap when ETH was sacked, 1 LWB signing, and a team who cannot pass and win duels.
Great idea lets spend another 12m+ on sacking a manager when our accounts show this to be unfeasible, he definitely needs criticising and should be doing better, but to replace him would be another knee jerk nonsense decision.
We are building for the future, are we going about it the right way under INEOS who knows....
The accounts tell the story of being fecked financially and you constantly complain about the money wasted on Ashworth as he was some saviour we have cast into the fire and the extension of ETH, so lets add another small fortune to that mix.
Xavi plays technical high paced football, our lot will suit that, more nonsense they can't even pass and move at a snails pace, he won the Spanish league with one of the big two not exactly Klopp is it, if they wanted him they would have gone for him as he wouldn't have cost any pay out.
More Reactionary Nonsense From Yourself
You can criticise but constantly hyping up scenarios that are not going to happen unless we are relegated, but you are asking Ipswich and Wolves to drastically improve their points per game with less games, than they have so far for us to even be in a scrap.
The only clubs in the world with an actual claim to a specific style as "their own" are Ajax and Barcelona. It hasn't to do with formations as much as it has to do with certain principles. And these principles weren't dictated by rich millionaires or suits with fancy titles, but by actual football people who were worth their salt.
All the rest try to find a manager with some good ideas, and once they decide to employ him, they try to surround him with people who can assist him in materializing these ideas in the best possible way. Sometimes it works (even for a short period of time), some others it doesn't. In this sense, it is prudent to know when's the time to move on. Keep in mind, however, that the best way to finally "get it right" is by giving these guys with the good ideas as fair a crack of the whip as you can. Not necessarily more time, but a fair opportunity to implement their vision.
If Sir Jim wants to be the gatekeeper of United's playing style, he should wear a tracksuit and start coming to Carrington every day.
All the rest try to find a manager with some good ideas, and once they decide to employ him, they try to surround him with people who can assist him in materializing these ideas in the best possible way. Sometimes it works (even for a short period of time), some others it doesn't. In this sense, it is prudent to know when's the time to move on. Keep in mind, however, that the best way to finally "get it right" is by giving these guys with the good ideas as fair a crack of the whip as you can. Not necessarily more time, but a fair opportunity to implement their vision.
If Sir Jim wants to be the gatekeeper of United's playing style, he should wear a tracksuit and start coming to Carrington every day.
Agree with all of this.
It‘s ok for a squad to have middle of the road players, as long as they work hard and there are at least three outstanding players.
We have Bruno and Amad right now as special players. That‘s not enough, we need more. I‘d say an outstanding striker and another 10 like Cunha would help us a great deal.
Then what they should have done is maybe kept RVN until the end of the season but signed Amorim up for the summer so they wouldn’t be in a situation where if RVN did well they’d be tempted to give him the job. He would have steadied us and got us top 10 with the current squad and system we was playing and use to playing. It would have also done RVN a favour as he’d of had more teams in for him in the summer.
The crux of it is this. We have become far too knee-jerk towards managers since the Moyes catastrophy. We have has champions league and league winning managers come and go due to a bad season. There is rot and it will take many transfer windows and a bit of luck to fix. We have a very talented manager and it will take him a few years to get this club ship shape. We need to reset our expectations and fully back Amorim. It's only been a few months and I'd rather see all the issues laid bare and us struggle now so we can properly fix the problem. Unlike other managers who've had an amazing new season bounce and suddenly when things go to pot, we all get on their back and sack them.