Absolutely
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Regardless of any of that.. the poster said something that was untrue which is why I replied with that.. evidence that a new system, regardless of the severity can be changed without signings.
Its funny because people say stuff and its not entirely true. So Liverpool players who were so used to the Klopp system, almost married to it, changed within 2 months. Its probably harder to get a group of players who were successful with a certain style to change to a different style than it is with players who couldn't play old managers style in the first place.
I.E fans on here keep talking about our style / formation needs to change as players dont like /suit it... when in fact they didn't like / suit the 4-2-3-1 Ten Hag played either..
We on the other hand will complain, "We have players who are used to Jose, Ole, Ten Hag" style, so takes time to get those habits out for a new manager.. etc...
All these players go on international duty and play a different system
I agree with most of that, except that it's harder for Liverpool players to adjust. Because no matter if they play for Klopp or Slot, they play the same basic system, their relative position still is very similar and a lot of automatisms still exist. This makes it simple to play more controlled and carefully add new patterns to the play.
International football is an interesting case as well, it tends to utilize simplified tactical approaches, but in the end in every team every player gets assigned a role and is expected to fulfill that. So it should match a players strengths.
Does Amorim give the players roles that fit their strengths? I doubt that in many cases.
But I also doubt that many players in this squad have really relevant strengths at all.
So at the moment I feel as if Amorim is making a bad squad look even worse and I am not sure if that situation will improve enough to keep him
I have always been the first to back managers even in the worst times. I was onboard with holding onto ETH during the summer, which was admittedly a mistake. Amorim is different for me though, I think it is incompetent to appoint a manager who plays a completely different style of football to the players we have mid season. Should have left RVN in place until the end of the season.
I also think Amorim was overrated in general before we hired him. His record at Sporting was great but that is not even a top 5 league. People can argue that he performed well in the UCL, while leaving those big team he beat have all the ball and catching them on the counter witb a clinical goalscorer, not exactly a CV for a top manager. He also had a strong generation of players coming through when he took the Sporting job. Nuno Mendes, Porro, Inacio,Ugarte,Paulinha,Pedro Goncalves and more. All of those players were levels above the league they were in. In contrast ETH made a UCL semi final, with a similar strong young generation of players, and won the Dutch league with record points. He also was playing a brand of football in the UCL in which he actually controlled possession to win games without any particular superstar goalscorer. Neither was the right hire.
These trendy manager hires have to stop, I don't care if statistics or AI says they could be the next Klopp, Mourinho or Fergi. Just hire a manager that plays good football at a good level in a competitive league. Hoeness,Emery, Xavi, Frank. There are loads of options out there. If you think Amorim is the right man then think about how many of the top 10 current managers play 3 at the back, outside of Amorim I count 1 and that's Alonso. Now tell me that Pep, Ancelotti, Flick, Slot, Simeone and Enrique are all wrong tactically to play a back 4. I am not saying that 5 or 3 at the back isn't an option, just that it is more often than not a hipster choice and has never really worked in the Premier league. Amorim clearly doesn't want to change, comes across as arrogant already and can't back it up, so I think he is not and never will be the right man for the job. Uniteds pedigree is in wing play with overlapping fullbacks and real clinical No.9s
Villa vs Liverpool was a perfect example of it from both teams and was a brilliant game. Stop the hipster managers and get in a manager that is proven in a competitive league with experience and respect from players.
I also think Amorim was overrated in general before we hired him. His record at Sporting was great but that is not even a top 5 league. People can argue that he performed well in the UCL, while leaving those big team he beat have all the ball and catching them on the counter witb a clinical goalscorer, not exactly a CV for a top manager. He also had a strong generation of players coming through when he took the Sporting job. Nuno Mendes, Porro, Inacio,Ugarte,Paulinha,Pedro Goncalves and more. All of those players were levels above the league they were in. In contrast ETH made a UCL semi final, with a similar strong young generation of players, and won the Dutch league with record points. He also was playing a brand of football in the UCL in which he actually controlled possession to win games without any particular superstar goalscorer. Neither was the right hire.
These trendy manager hires have to stop, I don't care if statistics or AI says they could be the next Klopp, Mourinho or Fergi. Just hire a manager that plays good football at a good level in a competitive league. Hoeness,Emery, Xavi, Frank. There are loads of options out there. If you think Amorim is the right man then think about how many of the top 10 current managers play 3 at the back, outside of Amorim I count 1 and that's Alonso. Now tell me that Pep, Ancelotti, Flick, Slot, Simeone and Enrique are all wrong tactically to play a back 4. I am not saying that 5 or 3 at the back isn't an option, just that it is more often than not a hipster choice and has never really worked in the Premier league. Amorim clearly doesn't want to change, comes across as arrogant already and can't back it up, so I think he is not and never will be the right man for the job. Uniteds pedigree is in wing play with overlapping fullbacks and real clinical No.9s
Villa vs Liverpool was a perfect example of it from both teams and was a brilliant game. Stop the hipster managers and get in a manager that is proven in a competitive league with experience and respect from players.
Amorim will never change so I'd suggedt stop watching until it improves or he is gone. Save your nerves. Surely rampaging on every single day about how awful he is isn't healthy.
He has a view of football and how it should be played and I personally admire that.
Even if his system makes these average players look a bit worse, it's on them.
He has a view of football and how it should be played and I personally admire that.
Even if his system makes these average players look a bit worse, it's on them.
I haven't been to Old Trafford for almost two years now so I'm reduced to knowing what I know (or what I think I know) from watching what I watch on television, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
What I am seeing is a battle of wills between the players and the manager. The players don't like the tactics, at least it seems to me that way, and woefully underperform what at least I believe is their actual level of ability. With the exception of Hojlund and Zirkzee, who just aren't at the level we would expect of a United striker, and Onana, we have a decent squad. One that requires upgrades of course, but the bones of a good squad are there.
I saw stick with Amorim. The more serious question than whether to sack or keep Amorim is whether he will want to remain at Old Trafford after the end of this season. I'm not sure he will.
What I am seeing is a battle of wills between the players and the manager. The players don't like the tactics, at least it seems to me that way, and woefully underperform what at least I believe is their actual level of ability. With the exception of Hojlund and Zirkzee, who just aren't at the level we would expect of a United striker, and Onana, we have a decent squad. One that requires upgrades of course, but the bones of a good squad are there.
I saw stick with Amorim. The more serious question than whether to sack or keep Amorim is whether he will want to remain at Old Trafford after the end of this season. I'm not sure he will.
I think I agree with this, but we will never know.
I don't disagree with what you say. But do players really go out there and not give it everything ? They jump around when they score, they look disappointed when they lose. Are 7 or 5 or whatever number of the team really not giving everything for every minute of every game ? Are they just clocking in and shuffling papers and trying to look busy ? I'm not sure that I can believe that.
Will be a shame if we never get to see what Amorim wanted to do here. He was given 4 months so far with 1 cheap signing who played 2 games, and target is on his back. The ideal scenario was that our squad will be able to play his tactics at least at the basic level, which in possession isn't far from what ETH coached. But right now we have I think 12 senior players + bunch of kids who never played senior football available and a midfield that wouldn't work in ANY system, so it's likely he will ever get a fair crack at it.
I think you would need rose tinted glasses to say that finish was even remotely indicative of performances on the pitch and you add in or take away reffing decisions etc.
Obviously we would all take 8th right now as things are dire.
It’s not a big surprise to me we are struggling given what I was watching last season. The optimist inside me always wants to get on board and hope things will improve but that feeling that is deep down in the pit of the stomach is usually right and the truth is that there is a lot of work to do. What the root cause of this depressing situation is yet to be worked out but one things for sure - entertaining we are not.
So its clearly not just the manager is it? Because we are actually way worse under Amorim than we were under Ten Hag.
People who say.. but we beat Arsenal, City and drew to Liverpool... well even Ten Hag managed that feat, beating City and Liverpool on route to the FA cup, Arsenal and Liverpool in his first season.
The same people who were critical on Ten Hag and he needs to be sacked are here asking for 1-2 years for Amorim, who has shown nothing.
Sacking Ten Hag was right but he at least showed something in his first season.
If we sold Amad, Garnacho, Mainoo and Ugarte this summer there'd be good teams interested.
That's exactly what does it mate.
Who Hojlund and Zirkzee?
I do believe there is something other than the manager contributing to the poor performances and such.
We still look pretty clueless. I’ve raised these points before about basics like passing the ball well so players can take it in there stride and being alert. We look like an accident waiting to happen when we pass along the back line.
Most of the players look berift of any real confidence. None of the players look like they want to assert themself on the situation and drag the team through it. It might just be the culture of the modern player with the obscene amounts of money being more valuable to them than winning things and fighting for it.
What ever is wrong the club looks rotten to the core at the moment and has for some time now.
Totally agree, I think Ronaldo and Sancho upset everything, it went to pot afterwards.
I do too but what can it be? We have had managers come in here and fail to do anything... its all based on luck and moments. Jose in the EL, Ten Hag with his trophies.
We have not got the worst managers but whenever they spend more than 6 months at this club... all their tactics start to look the same bland, easy to play against.
Our goal scoring problems have been about since LVG, our midfield issues since Jose and our defensive issues since Ole.
Whatever player we bring.... plays well for a few months and then looks like they are void of all technical ability, which then leads to lack of athleticism.
This part is interesting to me, first what is the culture of modern players? Our players aren't more modern than their opponents and while some earn more than others, our players are also not receiving more obscene amount of money than players in similar clubs. The second point is that the culture is set by the head coach/manager that's true in all sports the exception being when a manager has the luxury to rely on veteran players who have particularly good leadership skills but that's not a given.
Sir Jim talking out his fecking arse almost a year ago, to the day.
Imo there’s a combination of problems going on here. Poor purchasing by previous management is probably number one, thanks largely to EtH. The change to Amorim’s system is probably number two. We didn’t have the players to suit that system, with as many as 6 defensive players in the line-up so little creative threat. Number 3 is our lack of natural goal scorers. We had a lot of chances against Spurs, but couldn’t’ hit the onion bag.
And a lack of leadership on the field, we lack a couple of players that can either talk sense in their teammates or consistently lead by example.
Ten Hag's 60 points was sheer fluke when xg would have had us at around 44. It's no indication of quality of this squad.
No top 6 (I'd say 10) would swap their front 6 for ours.
While that's true it can be an indication of the quality of coaching.
Data analytics has ruined football
The 44 points based on xG are a stronger indication than the 60 it really was. Those stats show how lucky the team was
I don't really get your point. The 44 expected point are an indication of the quailty of coaching, any team that wasn't a relegation contender at the start of the season and total 44 expected points would have their manager questioned.
Rereading it I think I completely got you wrong, sorry for that
I'm surprised he only knows how to play one formation and nothing else. Don't coaches know how to switch up formations tactics according to opponents formation difficulty level game importance etc?
Half of the issues this season purely come down to finishing. How do you explain Garnacho's miss last week? Or Zirkzee being offside on the goal line in September.
The other half of the issues is just massive individual errors. In the last few months Onana has cost us goals, Maguire too, Bruno red card against Wolves. If the players could literally just be competent more of the time we'd have had better results.
I'm sure a completely different tactical approach brings about more individual errors at times (.e.g. not instinctively knowing where to pass) but the kind of mistakes we make are so brain-dead.
xG bollocks, sick of seeing it. 60 points doesn’t lie.
Yes.
It’s funny this because when he first joined us I remember him saying something about formation doesn’t matter as it will change in game etc and he also said he can change formation.
Not necesaarily especially young coaches. In theory they have notions in all the basic formations because it's part of the UEFA coaching badges courses but that's different from understanding the intricacies of each organization. Especially when it comes to anticipate the flaws and how your own players and opponents will either struggle or exploit them.
It took Sir Alex about 20 years into his career to switch it up from 4-4-2. It probably cost us Champions League knockout ties at times.
Regardless, there is variation in Amorim's tactics it just stays within the same basic structure. Before Amad's injury, we'd played much more like a 3-4-3 with Amad and Garnacho wider than a 3-4-2-1 for example.
Given where we are this season it's obvious which measure was the 'lie'.
We signed both from a League that's superior to the Championship though. I'm not a huge fan of either but saying they are championship players is an exaggeration mate.
SAF experimented with a lot of formations during the 90's. I can even remember us going away to Juve in 96 with a 433 and Eric as a false 9.
It's amazimg how our own fans reduce Sir Alex as a tactical dinosaur married to 4-4-2 playing on the counter.
That's because most of them have only ever seen highlight reels on YouTube and TBH most teams in the PL played that formation at the time as well, we were just better at it