Yep, bang on wasn't it?
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to celebrate rare back-to-back victories for Manchester United! They analyse the late win in the Europa League vs. Rangers and then try and find things to analyse in a pretty dour game vs. Fulham. They also chat about the latest Marcus Rashford news, and look at the latest transfer news.
I jumped into this discussion kind of late, not sure what the original question was. Of course it was bang on and of course it was a harsh statement at the same time
Yeah, I can agree with that.
And he didn't name him, same as Rashford didn't say I want a new challenge playing somewhere else, we all know who Amorin meant and we all know what Rashford meant without either explicitly saying so - apparently not all fans agree though I certainly do, the sooner Rashford goes the better IMO
Let's not pretend his comments were some sort of motivational tactic for Rashford. The Rashford situation has gone too far for him to come back, in which case him leaving is best for both parties.
So how do these comments help the club sell Rashford and get the best price for him?
Would he have to tell lies to not say the stuff he did say? Was there only two possible extremes in how he answered that question?
Also yes questioning Rashfords professionalism is permitted. Is it also permitted to question Amorims ability to deal with the British media?
Absolutely spot on mate. No United manager should feed the British media negative stories about United or it's players, that could potentially have a negative knock on effect for the club/team. Amorim's now did it twice in a week, the club need to get a handle on him.
Yes, but Rashford's professionalism has been an issue for years now, whereas it's far too soon to question Amorim's approach to the media.
Did Fergie often throw players under the bus publicly between 86 and the early 90's when he wasn't managing a top team?
Fergie was also starting in a completely different era, I'm not sure the comparisons are all that helpful
To be fair mate that makes no sense. One has nothing to do with the other.
Amorim is a young coach suddenly managing one of the worlds top clubs, and certainly the club that attracts arguably the most media attention. And he has now fed that media 2 negative stories about Uited in a week. For the 1st one he has admitted he made a mistake making those comments publicly. The minute he walked in the door it was fair game to question his ability to deal with the press. Because being able to handle the press is a massive part of managing Manachester United.
It was a genuine question and to be fair United were under a lot of media scrutiny back then as well even though it was the 80's/90's.
Didn't intend to single you out. But every Amorim statement gets compared to SAF, which I'm not sure is really helpful or applicable. Football and the whole landscape has evolved a lot since then
You are the one that made a connection between the two mate.
It's fair game to question his approach to the press, but not to draw any conclusions, because we haven't seen how this plays out yet, and how successful Amorim becomes as a United manager. What if this is him laying down a marker that becomes a catalyst for a hugely improved culture across the club?
I'm shocked by how many fans think he's in the wrong. A player on well over 300k a week makes it publicly known that he wants to leave around a month after the new coach arrives while putting in feck all effort in training and allegedly going out on a night out when he's not supposed to and it's Amorim that is the problem here?
I'm all for a siege mentality at the club and giving the press nothing but it was Rashford who made this whole thing public with that interview with Winter. I wouldn't have had an issue with the interview if he had acted like a professional but he hasn't, he's taking the piss out of the club by not training properly. He doesn't deserve to be protected by the gaffer. And if any of the other players have an issue with how it's been handled then that tells us everything we need to know and we should get shot of them too. Amorim is trying change the rotten culture at the club and I'm all for it. No more time wasters.
I'm all for a siege mentality at the club and giving the press nothing but it was Rashford who made this whole thing public with that interview with Winter. I wouldn't have had an issue with the interview if he had acted like a professional but he hasn't, he's taking the piss out of the club by not training properly. He doesn't deserve to be protected by the gaffer. And if any of the other players have an issue with how it's been handled then that tells us everything we need to know and we should get shot of them too. Amorim is trying change the rotten culture at the club and I'm all for it. No more time wasters.
I didn't though. The part of my post you quoted was me answering a question and then posing my own to make a point.
How well or poorly the team or he does going into the future is irrelevant and wouldn't change my opinion that he is currently dealing the the media poorly, he's being naive in feeding them negative stories. He need to wise up and quickly. As I've said he himself said he was wrong last week, he might well feel the same about his last comments.
It's not some 4d chess motivational tactic it's a Manchester United manager speaking without thinking and airing dirty laundry in public. It should never happen.
A lot of United fans love to either side with their favorite local player or still struggle to realize the depth of the issue with certain players, their attitude and behaviour
He didn't throw anyone under the bus and he didn't feed negative stories about United. He simply stressed out his approach and standards he expects from his player. Moreover he kinda proved that he meant it with the way he handled Garnacho.
Siege mentality is great if you have a group of professionals and winners. British press keeps asking the same questions and won't stop, and it will be fed by Rashord's PR team with more bullshit. It was the same with the previous managers who've chosen the approach you are suggesting. So it's refreshing to see something different from Amorim and hopefully will change the narrative around this topic, sending the message to the rest of the squad (especially young ones looking up to Rashford)
He was asked about Rashford specifically so yes, he was clearly referencing him. Not sure why it's so debate worthy.
Fair enough. I didn't make the comparison but I understand why people do. As Fergie was the manager for the majority of the lives of a lot of fans. So it's natural that many fans think a United manager should be held to that standard.
I can see your point that it's perhaps not helpful. And it certainly isn't fair to compare other managers to Fergie in a footballing sense. But I don't actually think it's unfair to expect the manager to keep club and players affairs private.
I subscribe to Alex Fergusons belief that publicly criticising one of your own players is bad for squad morale.
He called his own team the worst in the clubs history. Then later admitted that was a mistake.
He's now publicly singled out one if his players with pretty harsh criticism.
The media generated lots of headlines and clicks based on his comments. That's the very definition of feeding the media negative stories mate.
And the incessant questions will never stop thats part of the gig. If Amorim can't handle that then he's in for a rough ride here.
You don't wait until your team is good to defend your players publicly. Creating an us against the world atmosphere is part of creating a winning culture.
Ten Hag took the similar public approach with Sancho last year how did that work out for Ten Hag, motivating Sancho or the rest of the squad?
I just don't care anymore. The most important thing Amorim can do, is make his standards ruthlessly clear. If he needs to make an example of yesterday's man Rashford to do that, so be it. I'm fcuking done with pussyfooting around players who aren't the future of our club. The players with the right attitude will rise to Amorim's demands and that is the nucleus we will build the new team around, and he should 100% protect and back, for better or worse.
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I'll say it again, you can think amorim was wrong to say it, but don't pretend it hurt rashfords value or our ability to get rid.
You can tell that the attitude in training is well known because pretty much every pundit and journalist in football has ran with it, not one has even questioned whether its true or not. And if they already knew, and Paul Scholes has been more or less saying it for months, then every other team know it too.
Thats likely the reason no one is in for him. And his wages, obviously.
You can tell that the attitude in training is well known because pretty much every pundit and journalist in football has ran with it, not one has even questioned whether its true or not. And if they already knew, and Paul Scholes has been more or less saying it for months, then every other team know it too.
Thats likely the reason no one is in for him. And his wages, obviously.
The United team comment was strange, but for me personally it was more take on the quality of play, not the ability of the team.
He answered the question regarding Rashford, while stressing out his expectations. Media would generate headlines regardless of what he said. This way at least he set the narrative, there is no room for interpretation. Of course the press will not stop, but at least he comes across as a man with principals that will not treat some players better than the others (well at least to a certain point), just because they are (former) English stars with a hotline to some journos.
And Ten Hag vs Sancho is exactly the problem that Amorim can hopefully avoid. Sancho was not applying himself, club tried to help him with some time off etc. But press kept digging, Eth was coming up with some vague excuses until the lack of professionalism from Sancho was made public. Keeping it inside the team didn't help, Sancho didn't improve, press never stopped, but Eth was never comfortable during this whole saga.
At the same time Rashford has been stinking up the place for years. I'm 100% sure his lack of effort was clear to everybody and managers tried to deal with it behind closed doors - didn't work. But maybe part of Eth problem was that his expectations towards Sancho were not universal and did not apply to some other members of the team. Do you think this was motivating for the rest of the squad? Or maybe motivation comes from the fact that as long as you give 100%, you will receive criticism, will be challenged to do better, but you will be treated fairly and despite your errors, your manager will continue to back you.
So in the end I think Amorim handles English press pretty well, just in a different way that we are used to.
Which means we are stuck with Rashford and his wages. Doesn't Rashford realize he is wasting his career? Maybe he does not care.
We were poor but get your facts right
He might need to improve his sense for traps from journalists and see the media for the snakes they are. It's part of growing up and at 40 he will learn a lot.
What he said about Rashford wasn't 'pretty harsh criticism', it's his opinion of the situation and pretty damning that Rashford has let things get to this level wrt training and keeping up standards.
That only works if the player(s) is meeting him half way otherwise he starts to look weak in front of other players. He's defended Hoijlund recently and seems patient enough to want to work with him, Garnacho and Zirkzee despite them being a constant source of frustration, he is giving them that chance.
I think Ten Hag didn't fail because he went after Sancho, he failed because he recruited badly and his mish mash of tactics (front five pressing high, back four sat deep and Casemiro on his own) resulted in a disjointed set up that was vulnerable once the press was beaten.
Him shepherding Sancho out of this club was one of the best things he ever did for us.
Exactly my point. And I cannot imagine how could he "defend his own player" when it comes to Rashford.
Let's say he would come up with some excuse why he is not selected, and then another one and another one. We would fail to sell Rashford, but he would still not be playing. Press would keep asking and some sympathetic ones could even spread Rashford's PR ultimately undermining the manager. There is a good chance this is how it would pan out - it's rather improbable that Marcus would suddenly change his attitude and meet the expectations.
How on earth that would be better than what Amorim did?
Im not saying keeping it within the team is wrong, I just don't think what Amorim did is wrong by default and I can see where he's coming from. This was the message as much to Markus as to the rest of the squad.
He means that it sends the wrong message to select a player on the bench who doesn't try hard enough in training.
He's trying to change the culture at the club and stick to his principles. He's no ETH you know.
He shouldn't feed the vultures, club needs peace and quiet. He can tell the players what he expects of them, not the media. That said I agree with him, this squad is shit and Rashford a cnut.
Agree with this but he is young and new to the league he will learn. Some of them deserve the humiliation though, it was all too comfortable at United. Need someone with a wrecking ball like this to ruffle feathers.
Ouch
It's amazing that people are defending Rashford after multiple managers have had trouble with his attitude. Even at his best, he doesn't have the attributes of playing for a league-winning team. SAF would have either changed him or binned him after the first couple of seasons.
Feck them all, Ruben. You keep doing your thing. Call out the assholes, gather the good guys close, us against the world. I'm in.
And that can't be done privately?
Apologies mate, I didn't realise that we had an expert in handling the press in our midst! Maybe you could give him some tips?
And for what it's worth, Amorim never gives me the impression that he speaks without thinking - he seems like an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful guy.
it baffles me that you think he didn't do it privately first?!
The British media can and will interpret a managers comments and spin them any way they like.
So far he's coming across as a manager who is quick to get emotional in press conferences and feed the media.
How did going public with it and it turning into a back and forth public spat help?
Amorim himself might disagree considering he has said he regrets his comments from last week.
Personally on this front I believe he is doing poorly.
Indeed.
I mean it definitely was criticism and it was harsh. I'm not saying he was unfair in his criticism. Only that it shouldn't be done publicly. My opinion has little to do with Rashford by the way. I don't believe the manager of Man Utd shold be discussing private club matters publicly.
He didn't fail specifically because of the Sancho incident but it certainly didn't help. Ten Hag didn't 'shepherd' Sancho out of the club. He's still on the books, he made a right mess of the whole situation in fairness. It cost us an attacking player last season when we were struggling for goals, devalued an asset and probably didn't do much for squad morale either. With him being banished to the reserves and hanging around the club for months.
If Sancho was such a problem then he should have been sold in the 2023 summer window. Nothing positive came of the whole episode.
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You don't need to be an expert on dealing with the press to know you don't or at least you shouldn't speak about private club matters publicly and feed the media negative stories mate.
Ruben disagrees.
The above is what my post was in reply to. So he can't instill higher standards within the squad by making an example of Rashford privately? Is this what you are saying?
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May be wrong but I think most people in that camp would have been fine if Amorim had said something like "I don't play those who don't put in maximum effort and that won't change." I think some people just see it as below the belt to say he'd play a 60 year old ahead of him. Personally whatever, I don't care so much and don't think this is necessarily going too far, but there does have to be a line somewhere about how people in the club talk about each other in public, and fans will find that line in different places depending on what they see as offensive/unprofessional.
I think anyone arguing that it harms the club financially are wrong. Everyone knew he was done here and up for sale before Amorim’s comments.
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