If the club can't give him the tools he needs then why did they hire him in the first place?
If they sack him without allowing him to sign a single player then there's absolutely no question where the problem lies.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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If the club can't give him the tools he needs then why did they hire him in the first place?
If they sack him without allowing him to sign a single player then there's absolutely no question where the problem lies.
I think Amorim addressed this previously. These players were sticking the place out playing the system "they're used to and that suited their strengths " with a manager who's used to coaching that system, and who's had 3 preseasons coaching them that system. Amorim has not coached 4321, and was appointed precisely for his system that will eventually turn us in to a dominating / dynamic team. This will take time, intense coaching and tweaks to the personnel. The league is a write off, we're not getting relegated as there's no way we're getting less points than Southampton, Leicester, and Ipswich, so it's irrelevant where we finish this season. He needs to implement his new system straight away to see who can play it, who can't and then sell and buy players accordingly. Amorim has been clear and honest from day one.. Ride the storm and accept where we are, and listen carefully to what the coach is saying. This club has been in the mud for years, and won't be fixed overnight, but we sure are going in the right direction under this head coach.
Yes, I thought good managers were meant to make players better, not require an entire new squad that may then perform better. We can all see that we haven’t got the ideal players in all positions but we shouldn’t be being outplayed nearly every match.
The squad is underperforming.
The manager is underperforming.
Why are those two things mutually exclusive?
The players are terrible but it’s not like his tactics and style of play (much less results) are anything to write home about. Squad being shit doesn’t vindicate relegation form.
Both players, manager, and management need to step up immensely.
The manager is underperforming.
Why are those two things mutually exclusive?
The players are terrible but it’s not like his tactics and style of play (much less results) are anything to write home about. Squad being shit doesn’t vindicate relegation form.
Both players, manager, and management need to step up immensely.
The issue is even if he changes his style for this season and tries to get some result, what is the guarantee that leads to any better results long term. It is not like he will get 16 new players the coming summer to play his system. Rather he realises which position needs addressing than just get blinded by some half decent performances in a different system. If the plan is to back amorim then he should be allowed to stick to his system.
Amorim looked a defeated man in that press conference, but I am not buying what he says.
He basically says that it is very very hard to change from one system to another. Really ? How hard can it honestly be to go from say 4 4 2 to 3 4 3 ? The magic of his wing back system seems to be more defenders when we don't have the ball, and more players playing as attackers when we do have the ball.
How is that different from kids playing in the park with pullovers for goals ? More players back when you have to defend. Everyone run forward, when you are attacking. This system difficulty and needing specialist players I am just not buying.
If you are a footballer of any level you should be able to play a roughly similar position, a bit further forward or a bit further back or whatever the position calls for. Other than goalkeeper and centrehalfs most players have enough talent to be somewhat flexible in where and how they play their position or a very similar position.
I accept that Pep's style is different to Wimbledon of the 1980's but the players are also very different. I don't accept that 3 4 3 with wingbacks is some cosmic newfound wizardry that the players have 'to learn' and requires specialists.
It's the players, not being good enough and not enough effort and commitment and will to win to make up for their lack of talent. Some players are good enough but the whole team is a train wreck in confidence and lack of leadership.
I'm not buying the learning a system excuse - it's the players' ability and mentality first and foremost for me.
He basically says that it is very very hard to change from one system to another. Really ? How hard can it honestly be to go from say 4 4 2 to 3 4 3 ? The magic of his wing back system seems to be more defenders when we don't have the ball, and more players playing as attackers when we do have the ball.
How is that different from kids playing in the park with pullovers for goals ? More players back when you have to defend. Everyone run forward, when you are attacking. This system difficulty and needing specialist players I am just not buying.
If you are a footballer of any level you should be able to play a roughly similar position, a bit further forward or a bit further back or whatever the position calls for. Other than goalkeeper and centrehalfs most players have enough talent to be somewhat flexible in where and how they play their position or a very similar position.
I accept that Pep's style is different to Wimbledon of the 1980's but the players are also very different. I don't accept that 3 4 3 with wingbacks is some cosmic newfound wizardry that the players have 'to learn' and requires specialists.
It's the players, not being good enough and not enough effort and commitment and will to win to make up for their lack of talent. Some players are good enough but the whole team is a train wreck in confidence and lack of leadership.
I'm not buying the learning a system excuse - it's the players' ability and mentality first and foremost for me.
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Should have got moyes in
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Spot on.
Defo. Some defensive moves, some attacking moves....these would be helpful, no doubt.
I hear you but it’s oversimplifying it when you compare it to kids playing in the park where everybody rushes forwards and loses their shape. Needless to say if you play that way against a top side you will get hammered.
The system can be learned as you say, but not if that system is heavily reliant on having good wingbacks and a top striker who are key to how you play. We have a brainless and shite Dalot on one side and ever changing players on the other side. Plus two unproven young strikers who can’t score regularly.
I think we have to reserve judgement of the system until he has the players he wants for it.
At the same time, the players who are being deployed in this positions at the moment need to find some new level of performance or they will be gone, and we will be in a whole world of trouble.
Can't play a wingback system without wingbacks. Can't play a big man up top system without the big man. Can't play a high energy system without the energy. Did no one think to address this before hiring him mid season?
He needs to teak things, his wing back choices don’t work and haven’t worked more often than not. If he abandons his ideas and formation now it would be a damning choice which I think could potentially kill him sadly.
True but I do think Amad is better under Amorim as is Maguire and Ugarte. ETH wouldn’t even play Amad and Ugarte was terrible when he first arrived under ETH
This is a thing I can’t make sense of. He basically got set up to have a miserable time, especially as we’re not doing any business this month.
Can we just get Onanas gloves covered in double sided 3M tape until we can get another goalkeeper in the summer?
Just sick and tired of the mistakes.
Just sick and tired of the mistakes.
LVG had a philosophy and a system, and a much more impressive resume than Amorim. He was sacked while the team was still learning his system. We qualified for the CL in his first season, won the FA Cup in his second. But his style was considered boring, and not the swashbuckling attacking style of old. LVG signed 13 players, including Di Maria, Schweinsteiger, Falcao, Martial, Depay, Herrera, Shaw, Blind, Rojo, Darmian, Schneiderlin. We finished 5th.
They sacked him and brought in Mourinho, who parked the bus. Mourinho wanted a whole new team and threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get them. Finished 6th, 2nd, and won the EL.
Ole continued the park the bus counter attacking style. Got 3rd, 2nd. We attacked but had no system.
ETH comes in. Wants to revamp the entire set up, get us playing like Ajax, a high-energy pressing team that transitions at speed. He gets a bunch of players but key ones are injured for long periods. Wins the FA Cup, gets 3rd and 8th. Kept on as manager, brings in some missing pieces in De Ligt, Yoro, Mazraoui, Ugarte - and gets sacked.
RA comes in. His wingbacks system is also not the swashbuckling attacking style of United's halcyon days. Except now we have very few players who can function in this new system. Ink isn't even dry on half their contracts, but somehow hiring RA and binning half the team is the answer. Lost 5 of his first 10 games, lost 5 of our last 6 PL games. What's the current count? Played 15, won 5, drew 3, lost 7.
Every single manager we have brought in on a permanent basis barring Ole has had a philosophy/system that was the magic bullet. All of them needed a bunch of new players. Only RA has been allowed to fail miserably while he waits for his new players or for his current players to learn the system.
I do think a different manager who would play a system that used these players to their abilities would be getting results. That doesn't even have to be negative, park the bus football. Just start with what Ten Hag was doing and fix his fecking obvious mistakes, and we'd be playing better. We still wouldn't have a goal scorer worth his corn, the manager isn't going to suddenly change that, but the rest of the team would at least have some clue what they're supposed to be doing.The fact is we have a manager who has a new system and needs new players he's not getting. I don't see how it doesn't end in tears. He's already at the eating-rats-drinking-urine phase of the voyage, no honeymoon period whatsoever.
They sacked him and brought in Mourinho, who parked the bus. Mourinho wanted a whole new team and threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get them. Finished 6th, 2nd, and won the EL.
Ole continued the park the bus counter attacking style. Got 3rd, 2nd. We attacked but had no system.
ETH comes in. Wants to revamp the entire set up, get us playing like Ajax, a high-energy pressing team that transitions at speed. He gets a bunch of players but key ones are injured for long periods. Wins the FA Cup, gets 3rd and 8th. Kept on as manager, brings in some missing pieces in De Ligt, Yoro, Mazraoui, Ugarte - and gets sacked.
RA comes in. His wingbacks system is also not the swashbuckling attacking style of United's halcyon days. Except now we have very few players who can function in this new system. Ink isn't even dry on half their contracts, but somehow hiring RA and binning half the team is the answer. Lost 5 of his first 10 games, lost 5 of our last 6 PL games. What's the current count? Played 15, won 5, drew 3, lost 7.
Every single manager we have brought in on a permanent basis barring Ole has had a philosophy/system that was the magic bullet. All of them needed a bunch of new players. Only RA has been allowed to fail miserably while he waits for his new players or for his current players to learn the system.
I do think a different manager who would play a system that used these players to their abilities would be getting results. That doesn't even have to be negative, park the bus football. Just start with what Ten Hag was doing and fix his fecking obvious mistakes, and we'd be playing better. We still wouldn't have a goal scorer worth his corn, the manager isn't going to suddenly change that, but the rest of the team would at least have some clue what they're supposed to be doing.The fact is we have a manager who has a new system and needs new players he's not getting. I don't see how it doesn't end in tears. He's already at the eating-rats-drinking-urine phase of the voyage, no honeymoon period whatsoever.
If we had one wing-back who could overlap consistently and produce accurate crosses, or more than one centre back comfortable in possession (and by possession, I mean quick passing possession), or central midfielders who could pass through the lines, or well rounded strikers for the lone role.
I do not disagree that we need that hunger, that's clear. But we do not have the athleticism or the technicality required for the level we aim for, nor the level below. And when Amorim is talking about this team being in the last few years a counter attacking team he is absolutely right. And this is what he wants to change. So it's not about changing from a 4231 to a 343/523, but changing a counter attacking team that cannot hold onto possession in the final third with enough tempo to bother oppositions to a team that can actually play progressive football and is comfortable in possession all over the pitch and has the pace and power to compete properly for every inch on the pitch. Hunger is part of that, but ability is also a prerequisite
We have two midfielders, two. I don't count Eriksen or Casemiro. And they both look gassed. We all knew last summer that it was beyond stupid not to address the lack of numbers there. We have one young striker and another attacker who cannot really be positionally defined. We've got 4 wide attackers, one has adapted really well, one is a lazy and entitled on his way out, one is our worst transfer ever and the fourth is struggling to adapt to playing more centrally, more suited to counter attack like the lazy one. There are so many issues with this team playing a more up tempo passing game cutting teams open. We don't even have the centre backs to properly push up as there's so little recovery pace, and only Martinez can pass through the lines.
It's the lack of training/preparation, lack of ability, and the mentality you mentioned.
You’re asking questions I can only give an opinion on. Ineos hasn’t gotten off to a great start have they? I’ve accepted we’re finishing the season in the bottom half of the table and I hope they back him and give him time. Time will tell.
The team selection for the Everton 4-0 should have been the blueprint going forward:
Onana
Mazraoui - De Ligt - Martinez
Amad - Casemiro - Mainoo - Dalot
Zirkzee - Bruno
Rashford
2 offensive CBs, at least one attacking winger as a WB, a foil in Zirkzee, and pace in behind with Rashford.
Much more offensive than the lineups that's he's been selecting recently.
Onana
Mazraoui - De Ligt - Martinez
Amad - Casemiro - Mainoo - Dalot
Zirkzee - Bruno
Rashford
Much more offensive than the lineups that's he's been selecting recently.
you lot....these overpriced losers have got you by the balls and all you have to say is "maybe time for a manager change?" 
No wonder the players can get away with absolute murder. They show NOTHING..feckING....NOTHING every damn week and all you lot do is clutch pearls. Every manager sends up the alarm about just how rotten the whole club is, how our squad just turns up every god damn day to collect a paycheck and strut around going "i've made it, i'm a MUFC player, my journey is complete" and when these frauds are exposed time after time after time so many of you just go "how about a new manager".
So sick of it.
No wonder the players can get away with absolute murder. They show NOTHING..feckING....NOTHING every damn week and all you lot do is clutch pearls. Every manager sends up the alarm about just how rotten the whole club is, how our squad just turns up every god damn day to collect a paycheck and strut around going "i've made it, i'm a MUFC player, my journey is complete" and when these frauds are exposed time after time after time so many of you just go "how about a new manager".
So sick of it.
Yep, that would be my choice.
Dalot, I guess, is ok for now as a makeshift option, but Mazraoui has been horrendous lately as a wing back, and no more so than today. He blatantly needs one of those wing backs to be more attacking and creative as any time we've looked good, it's been with Amad at wing back and Garnacho further forward.
Today's team selection was just way too defensive and didn't give BHA any reason not to push up field. Garnacho on the break gives you a threat we didn't have today.
This fanbase is such a sucker for a manager who knows how to say the right things in press conferences. Tactically however Amorim is showing nothing to inspire confidence. We're playing three at the back and still leaking goals which is bad sign on it's own.
Love that he is being realistic instead of trying to put a brave face on it to protect the players egos.
The squad is full of absolute dross from the dodgy keeper to a pair of overpriced strikers who can't manage a shot on target between them. We need to rip it up and start again.
Though with piss poor ownership and input from whoever is Director Of Football this week, pulling that off will be easier said than done
The squad is full of absolute dross from the dodgy keeper to a pair of overpriced strikers who can't manage a shot on target between them. We need to rip it up and start again.
Though with piss poor ownership and input from whoever is Director Of Football this week, pulling that off will be easier said than done
You're saying the same thing as Amorim but in a different way. He knows the players aren't good enough and that's what is meant when saying its hard to change from one system to another.
Even on the playground A good player would understand his position and settle in much easier. He would understand how much energy is to be used, when its to be used, and from a technical pov he would also adapt his skillset. Bring out some new skills whilst putting other skills towards the back of the locker.
Now a bad player? They would wander off in their old position, they'd be confused about where they should be and they'd doubt themselves hard. They would use the same set of skills they were using in their previous position without understanding they have to adapt.
I have recently experienced this when playing football for a team, when we had our wingsbacks it was a different team compared to when we didn't.
Pretty demoralized with how things are going right now. INEOS forced him to come in mid-season so better back him then or he won't even make it to the end.
I haven't seen any tactical brilliance to have a blind faith that doesn't mean you call for his head. Tactical rigidity to this level and not raising any question about continuous decisions going against us won't bode well in the long run.
Our squad is really poor, probably the worst in my 40 years following the club but that said, Amorim is making them look even worse.
Is anyone "Amorout" yet, apart from Magnus Carlsen?
I mean, Old Trafford doesn't seem to have the same enthusiasm towards him as they did even for Ten Hag.
Amorim
Yep, the usual suspects, the ones who defended EtH to the bitter end.
I think they're just mentally worn out at this point.
ETH's first season wasn't terrible.
Amorim is taking over in a 'Rangnick' moment and it's a struggle
Good post. Thoughtful.
I don't really see people calling for his head here. Plenty of criticism and questioning INEOS' decision-making around the appointment / timing, but that's about it.you lot....these overpriced losers have got you by the balls and all you have to say is "maybe time for a manager change?"
No wonder the players can get away with absolute murder. They show NOTHING..feckING....NOTHING every damn week and all you lot do is clutch pearls. Every manager sends up the alarm about just how rotten the whole club is, how our squad just turns up every god damn day to collect a paycheck and strut around going "i've made it, i'm a MUFC player, my journey is complete" and when these frauds are exposed time after time after time so many of you just go "how about a new manager".
So sick of it.
You're relentless. I admire it in a way
I think our biggest issue isn't underperforming guys who are playing. Its the absolute wasters in the squad who never play. Shaw, Mount, Rashford. 3 of our highest paid players, might as well not exist. We're fighting with one hand tied behind our backs all the time because players lose form or fitness and there's nobody to replace them with so we have to persist with the same players week in week out. Then you throw in the likes of Antony and Casemiro who are available but just can't be trusted and that's why we're in such a massive predicament. Our squad of usable players is tiny considering we're still in 3 competitions.
We won't see any improvement until we can move most if not all of those players on.
We won't see any improvement until we can move most if not all of those players on.
I don't disagree but this is pretty rich considering you backed Ten Hag till the bitter end and he'd still be here now if it were up to you.
Agree. Our problem is the WBs do not make the runs when we have the balls. More often the ball gets passed side way or back to Onana. All 5 defenders stay still at the back and just hope the 3 attackers find some space to receive. They don't take the risk and open up the space so Zirkzee, Bruno and Amad can have less defenders to deal with. Amad as a WB will do those runs but then we need him as no 10 also. Maz and Dalot just don't know how to operate as a WB. So frustrating to watch now.
What are you talking about ?
We got slapped up by Brighton on multiple occasions under Ten Hag. Same for Bournemouth.
ETH brought in absolute garbage into an already poor team. No manager in PL history ever bought so many of his ex players than Ten Hag did (or players that he had a connection to) yet he still couldn't get a tune out of them.
That is exactly why he is no longer at MUFC.
Maybe going forward? But im seeing the WBs play in a back 5 for most of the game and we still conceded goals.
I dont see how the formation cost us any of the goals today.