Ipswich also have double the amount of points than us in the past five games....
Whilst relegation is unlikely it's definitely not impossible.
And the point I was making was it's just as likely as United going on a winning streak....
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Whilst relegation is unlikely it's definitely not impossible.
And the point I was making was it's just as likely as United going on a winning streak....
I think we are on the cusp of a new football philosophy: low-energy football.
I am almost certain it will catch on.
I am almost certain it will catch on.
If you take Casemiro, Eriksen, Rashford and Garnacho out of midfield then there's not much left. You also have to remove Mount (he's always injured) and all you're left with is Bruno playing deep (he lacks the discipline and awareness for the role), Ugarte (DM, nothing more nothing less), Amad (5ft8), Mainoo (not the biggest worker) .. Midfield is the engine room of a team btw
Then you have to look at the back. Onana is a maverick. He can deliver a star performance that would make Buffon proud followed by a stinker that would make you regret that OShea is not around as GK. Yoro is still young, Martinez is adorable at 5ft9. Every 6ft3+ forward is targeting him on corners these days. I guess they love him hitting his head at their knees or something. Regarding De Ligt, how many clubs had sold De Ligt for a cheaper fee to the one they bought him? Surely there's something wrong in a person that had made both Juventus and Bayern lose money on.
Last but not least there's Mazraoui whom Bayern got rid for a cut price and teen sensation Dalot who had given us how many WC performances exactly? I bet you can count them in one hand.
Which leads us to the initial point I was making ie a cultural reset. First of all standards need to go up substantially. Players are being hyped far too easily at this club and we're too hesitant to let people go. That's not just on players btw. For example we've been hearing about the important of data analysis since at least the time of David Moyes. Fast forward to present time and SJR was shocked how shit our data analysis team is. Then there's the usual waves upon waves of injuries with barely any changes being made at fitness level (if there were changes we didn't notice), the leaks that had been consistent since SAF retired, our ability to develop good players into WC which was the norm under SAF but had mostly died out as soon as he retired, our inability to sell unwanted players or bring in 'out of the box' signings (the Chicaritos, the Oles, the Johnsens) which ends up surprising us.
Laziness is not just jogging on the pitch. I mean I watched the likes of United/Italy playing live in different eras and I would struggle to name 5 players with the same workrate of a Gattuso or a Ji Sung Park. (actually the only person I would liken Park in terms of workrate is Gattuso and viceversa). That doesn't mean that the rest were lazy. On the pitch its about constantly losing 50-50 challenges, its about players not making themselves available to team mates, its about not learning from mistakes and not being gutted when the team lose. Off the pitch its about letting complacency settling in, its about managers having to adapt to the player's preferred style because they refuse to go out of their comfort zone, its the lack of paranoia that standards might slip and football might stop being the center of everything. I was listening to Roades the other day of the muppeteers were he heavily criticized Ole for demanding Rashy to not let non football issues distract him. In his opinion that was uncalled fall bla bla bla. Guess what? United brings the food on the table so yes club football should be his focus
We were clearly playing a different system and looking quite different in how we built up and controlled the tempo of the game up until the last couple of matches. Yes we've obviously slipped backwards in the last two or three matches, but is that really surprising considering we've barely had a proper training day since Amorim started?
I absolutely refuse to respond to the rest whilst this daft Juventus thing continues to pop up.
Juventus wanted to keep him, it's well documented, but he made it clear he wasn't signing a new deal so their hands were tied.
He's once been sold by a club who didn't want to keep him, after a season with plenty of injury issues/niggles.
Every permanent manager besides Moyes has brought their own dross. This place behaves like its the same squad since 2013. "Its not the managers its the players". Its a combination of bad managers and horrible recruitment.
I think only Rashford and Shaw are left from the Jose days, a few left from Ole.
There is a lot of he said, she said in that deal. De ligt claimed that Juventus weren't matching his ambition while Juventus claim that his performance didn't match his monstrous salary. That doesn't remove the fact that he moved to Bayern for less money then they spent on him and he then moved to united for less money then Bayern spent on him
Our performances and results improving is obviously more likely than being relegated. It's not like we're talking about a winning streak that will get us to the top 4. Just getting back to the performances that we had for Amorim's first 8 or so matches will see us move up the table and comfortably away from the bottom three.
A few matches where we've been really bad (and that's all it's been - a few) doesn't warrant the hysterical panicking that some are doing in here.
First of all, what are these "achievements" at Spurs and PSG?
Secondly, Sporting won the league under Amorim after 18 years of Porto and Benfica dominating the league between them. And Amorim won two in four years.
To dismiss this because it was done in a weaker league is just lazy. SAF's biggest achievement was breaking a 15 year long Celtic Rangers dominance. And the Scottish league is hardly a top league in Europe.
No there isn’t, if was widely reported in Italy that they offered him an extension on the same wage, and a second offer to try convincing him they matched his ambitions by lowering his release clause with a slightly lower wage.
And even his captain made it crystal clear.
I wish him the best, but some of the things he said with his national team were not pleasant".
"We spoke about it after the holidays and he understood it. I'm not surprised by his exit because he made it clear that he didn't want to stay at Juventus. But I think the foundation of everything is respect for the group who he spent three years with, who helped him to grow and the club who have invested in him. I wish him the best", were the words Bonucci provided for 'La Gazzetta dello Sport'.
Great players have moved for free, or insanely cheap because their club have no choice.
Stop the nonsense that Juventus wanted rid somehow or were ok with selling him, they weren’t, they were gutted to sell him.
So once again, one team happily sold him off at a loss after a season with too many niggling injuries.
Point of order- he wrested the title from Dundee Utd in fact.
Rangers didn’t even finish in the top 3 from 1982-1986.
The fee that Juventus paid was largely due to how young De Ligt was and the expectation that he would keep improving and become one of the best in the world. Three years later and while he'd been their best defender for at least two of those years, he hadn't reached the heights that was expected. At that point he had two years left on his contract and refusing to sign another one, so of course his transfer fee will be less. That doesn't mean that there's something wrong with him. It was still the 6th highest fee for a defender of all time.
There's an element of that in the Bayern to Utd move as well (in the sense that as he's aged teams are paying for his current level instead of the future potential that he didn't reach), but that one is definitely more along the lines of what you are saying. Bayern clearly decided that they wanted a different profile and were actively looking to sell him. So by all means this one does fit your claims and does raise some question marks for us. But trying to make out the Juve to Bayern move also does simply isn't the case.
You Might wanna check your facts , Sir Alex's first league title in Scotland was won after breaking Celtic and Rangers 15 years duopoly .
Should I do a quick google check before confidently jumping in to correct someone or just run with it and come off as ignorant and lazy? Tough choice.
Just a minor thing as well....He did win a European final against Real as well as beating Bayern on the way
That's true. Just to be clear, I'm not equating Amorim with SAF.Just a minor thing as well....He did win a European final against Real as well as beating Bayern on the way
The poster I was replying to implied that the Portugese league being weaker somehow invalidated Amorim's massive achievement of breaking a long running duopoly. That's why I reminded them of SAF's Aberdeen win and how widely lauded it is.
Fair enough
I think he needs to set a basic Rule No.1 that is mandatory for all players to comply. Never ever let the opposition team outrun us ever again. Enough is enough where every opposition team's players run more than us, played higher intensity than us and have more desire to win the match.
If Rashford had to leave United right now then I expect Bruno to say pretty much the same thing. That doesn't mean that he didn't want out and the club wants him out as well.
Here's a very balanced article about De Ligt during Juventus time. Its in Italian of course.
https://www.panorama.it/calcio/de-ligt-juventus-bilancio-risultati-costo
He was bought because Andrea Agnelli wanted to buy the most promising youngsters around. In his words "We must be able to get the next Cristiano Ronaldo at age 25"
The article does say that Juventus were at a time of turmoil during that time with 3 managers (Sarri, Pirlo and Allegri) at the helm at one point and that the Serie A can't hold to its biggest names anymore But it also highlights that De Ligt has to carry his fair share of fault as he didn't delivered in a consistent way. It also admit that De Ligt has taken more out of Juventus than he had given.
Regarding your last comment. Juventus announced Bremer a little over 24 hours after they sold De Ligt. That how 'sad' and 'shocked' Juventus were to lose De Ligt. Bremer had just won the la Lega Serie A Best Defender for season 2021-22. The Brazilian earned a net salary of 5m as opposed to De Ligt's 8m and the Brazilian lacked the reputation of playing hand ball in the box. If you want to know more about that then type this in youtube. There's quite a compilation that would make Tracey Neville wonder if she could have followed her brother's career in football after all
"3 minuti di Matthijs de Ligt che prende il pallone con le mani"
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Literally says in the headline:
NOW HE ASKED TO LEAVE, TREATING JUVENTUS AS A WAY STATION....
So yeah, your own source confirms exactly what we've been debating. Juventus sold him because he asked to leave them, despite them wanting him to stay. They sold begrudgingly to the club he had chosen, Bayern and did the best they could on the price, still getting a large sum for him (kinda like us with Di Maria).
So stop the nonsense. One single club has been happy to let him leave, and at much cheaper than they paid for him, after a season of many niggling injury issues.
Potential tend to have a bearing over the fee but in De Ligt's case it was also down to Mino Raiola who orchestrated the perfect auction. Its a shame because in the long run it did hurt De Ligt big time. At one point De Ligt was Juventus highest earning player and he wasn't delivering the goods to justify that. Hence why there was nudges on both sides to part ways. The same happened at Bayern were De Ligt was let go despite being a decent CB there.
I never said that he didn't asked to leave. All I said is that Juventus were glad to see his back. They had everything wrapped up for Bremer who was signed a little more then 24 hrs after De Ligt was gone. No club is able to wrap a deal so quickly unless they had it sorted for quite a while. So what kept the Bremer deal from going through was De Ligt riding off the sunset to Bayern were, in few years time, they will also realize that he's not worth the salary he's on as well.
Its pretty much the same situation we have with Rashford if let's say PSG came in in the January window with let's say 60m. Rashford was the first to say that he 'needed a new challenge' and strictly speaking United had never placed him on the market. However every man and his dog knows that United want him gone and are probably working towards that goal.
So glad in fact that they offered him 2 new deals in an attempt to persuade him to stay.
They got just 8m less than they paid for him, and they were clearly pissed he asked to leave and treated them like a way station, so no doubt they ultimately ended up happy they recouped most of their money and lined up a top replacement. Tends to be that way when a club feels like they are treated like shit, as with Di Maria.
They knew for weeks De Light was moving, so obviously they were working on his replacement but due to finances had to wait until De Light to Bayern was confirmed. That's just normal.
Rashford's situation is very different.
So let's finish this off once and for all, 2 clubs begrudgingly allowed De Ligt to leave to the highest bidder after he declared his wish to leave.
JUST ONE club has happily taken a hit on him and sold him off after a season of many giggly injuries.
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He was 23. How much loss do you expect them to do out of him?
And yes Rashford is different. He was occasionally the star player of a big club whose competing at a top league ( a league that can't be won by idiots like Frank De Boer). He's yet to lose value at every transfer he's been involved into as well.
Ultimately the issue was quite clear. De Ligt didn't represent value for money in terms of salary, he left and they got Bremer. Years later Bayern came to the same conclusion and we're slowly getting there as well
You've gone on a tangent again pal so let's finish this off once and for all.
2 of De Ligt's previous clubs begrudgingly allowed De Ligt to leave to the highest bidder after THE PLAYER declared his wish to leave.
ONE club has happily taken a hit on him and happily sold him off after enduring a crap season for the team and one of many niggly injuries for the player.
I know it packs a harder hit to make out he's been happily fecked off on multiple occasions, but it's simply a lie.
2 of De Ligt's previous clubs begrudgingly allowed De Ligt to leave to the highest bidder after THE PLAYER declared his wish to leave.
ONE club has happily taken a hit on him and happily sold him off after enduring a crap season for the team and one of many niggly injuries for the player.
I know it packs a harder hit to make out he's been happily fecked off on multiple occasions, but it's simply a lie.
This season was supposed to be different, with a new game model that was implemented and better recruitment.
Supposedly Amorim‘s philosophy fits within the parameters of the game model, although I have heard nothing about it. There are a lot of similarities between Ruben and Erik.
We did recruit better, with ZZ the only question mark for me. We chose potential over experience in the striker position.
Feels like a WWE promo
What started this whole funfare is this
"Regarding De Ligt, how many clubs had sold De Ligt for a cheaper fee to the one they bought him? Surely there's something wrong in a person that had made both Juventus and Bayern lose money on".
I've yet to understand how all your post suggest otherwise.
Given the lack of quality in our squad, I did not expect him to do much better. We are certainly better then the table reflects right now, but not good enough for top 6 and everything in between I dont really care about.. The only slight worry I have right now is that he seems rather one-sided, I have yet to find out his plan B (again, maybe it is due to our limited squad). The successful managers in the prem (Conte, Guardiola, Jose, and even Slot now) always had their base formation/set-up and could tweak things, if needed. But I guess he still deserves some time before final judgment.
Not based on what they did at Utd so far. For most of Amorim's games we were much more solid and controlling than we ever were under ETH, and obviously the shape of the team is quite different as well. That's all fallen away the last few games of course, but hopefully that's just a short drop off on the road to being a team that can actually control a match.
What is 'wrong in a person' that has two years left on his contract, refusing to sign a new one and clearly wanting to leave being sold for 'only' the 6th highest transfer fee for a defender of all time?
Juventus had no choice. They accepted that very high bid (albeit not quite as high as they'd paid three years earlier) rather than lose him for much cheaper 12 months later or for free two years later, things they couldn't afford to do considering their financial position at the time. Unless De Ligt had been one of the best defenders in the world for those years, there was no possible way for Juventus to get their money back. It's nothing negative about the player at all, unless you want to hold not being one of the best in the world against him.
the risk with this, is that after two or three days of isolation, the players start turning gay, which creates deep divides in the dressing room. you’ve got hojlund unhappy because no one is passing him around. shaw and mount’s hamstrings can’t take the elongated bumming sessions, so there’s no motivation for them to get fit. you’ve got rashford feigning interest and thumbing in softies. it’s a disaster waiting to happen.
You're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that something has to be "wrong" in a player for a club to sell him and lose money.
There was nothing "wrong" with Courtois when Chelsea extremely begrudgingly sold him to Madrid for a measly 35m. There was nothing "wrong" with Michael Owen when Liverpool lost their best player for free. There was nothing "wrong" with Robin van Persia when Arsenal felt obliged to accept a lowly and frankly pathetic 24m for him from a rival.
There was nothing "wrong" with De Light with regards to Juve, they wanted him, tried to persuade him to stay, but he wanted desperately to leave, in that situation the club is nearly always losing out.
I guess there was something wrong with van der Sar too when Fulham lost 60% of the fee they paid Juve when selling him to United, right @devilish ?
Now please fecking stop mate, when a player pushes hard to leave, the club lose a lot of their bargaining power, you know this!! You know full well that's why Wenger ultimately sold van Persie to Manchester United for an embarrassing 24m.
Now as I say, there was something wrong at one club, Bayern, they simply didn't want him any longer. I assume I know why, they'd just come off a shite season, he was injured loads and they needed to raise money. For similar reasons they sold the excellent Mazraoui for buttons.
But most of them for one reason or another didn't establish to take over more responsibility for the team. After all, ETH put all his eggs in the baskets of Rashford and Bruno, Shaw and at some point even McTominay as a super sub or Maguire in defence. So while you are right, the face of the team changed significantly, he didn't manage to shift responsibility away to other players. Thats down to a combination of subpar recruiting and even bad luck but I think, it is important not to draw the wrong conclusions. A rebuild in the dimension we needed it (need again?) is about changing up the spine of the team, install new leading figures, new roles in the team, new dynamics. And in that respect, for multiple reason we are not able to really take off from the runway. Again, this is not me putting blame on the four players I listed. Just a description of what happened. That everything worked out the way it did for them makes it look like worse decision than it actually was back in the day. But, again, we have to draw the right conclusions.
Rinse and repeat. He‘ll be called a bearded fraud before you know it.What, you don’t think he’s trying to coach the players to play his system?
The amount of rubbish spouted on here these days is unreal. Football fans are in the gutter.
Another thing we‘ll hear is the players are rubbish.
Both statements are wrong, but we can all agree that we are shiit.
That there is a prime example of a coach formerly branded shiit showing he is more than capable.
None of the coaches we have had are shiit, in fact every one of them was very good.
Moyes? Wouldn’t say he’s awful but wouldn’t say he’s very good either. He’s probably in the mid section. Worse we’ve had though, not by performances but just by name. All the others except ole are quite big names or successful names.
Ok it's perfectly normal, healthy even for clubs to keep losing money out of a transfer especially one surrounding a young talent. Happy now?
I am actually livid that we got so much money out of Ronaldo. We should have sold him for 5m
Moyes isn‘t top top tier, but a very good coach. Do you agree he did well with West-Ham?
He was working in the already dysfunctional environment of MU. Fellaini transfer saga was insane.