Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What is 'wrong in a person' that has two years left on his contract, refusing to sign a new one and clearly wanting to leave being sold for 'only' the 6th highest transfer fee for a defender of all time?

Juventus had no choice. They accepted that very high bid (albeit not quite as high as they'd paid three years earlier) rather than lose him for much cheaper 12 months later or for free two years later, things they couldn't afford to do considering their financial position at the time. Unless De Ligt had been one of the best defenders in the world for those years, there was no possible way for Juventus to get their money back. It's nothing negative about the player at all, unless you want to hold not being one of the best in the world against him.

I guess there was something wrong with van der Sar too when Fulham lost 60% of the fee they paid Juve when selling him to United, right @devilish ?

Now please fecking stop mate, when a player pushes hard to leave, the club lose a lot of their bargaining power, you know this!! You know full well that's why Wenger ultimately sold van Persie to Manchester United for an embarrassing 24m.

Now as I say, there was something wrong at one club, Bayern, they simply didn't want him any longer. I assume I know why, they'd just come off a shite season, he was injured loads and they needed to raise money. For similar reasons they sold the excellent Mazraoui for buttons.

 

[NZT-One]

ETH literally bought one keeper, 3 CBs, 2 full backs, 2 CMs, 3 number 10s, a right winger and a forward. He also brought through Mainoo and Garnacho. That’s 15 new first team players since Ragnick.

But most of them for one reason or another didn't establish to take over more responsibility for the team. After all, ETH put all his eggs in the baskets of Rashford and Bruno, Shaw and at some point even McTominay as a super sub or Maguire in defence. So while you are right, the face of the team changed significantly, he didn't manage to shift responsibility away to other players. Thats down to a combination of subpar recruiting and even bad luck but I think, it is important not to draw the wrong conclusions. A rebuild in the dimension we needed it (need again?) is about changing up the spine of the team, install new leading figures, new roles in the team, new dynamics. And in that respect, for multiple reason we are not able to really take off from the runway. Again, this is not me putting blame on the four players I listed. Just a description of what happened. That everything worked out the way it did for them makes it look like worse decision than it actually was back in the day. But, again, we have to draw the right conclusions.

 

[NLunited]

What, you don’t think he’s trying to coach the players to play his system?

The amount of rubbish spouted on here these days is unreal. Football fans are in the gutter.

Rinse and repeat. He‘ll be called a bearded fraud before you know it.

Another thing we‘ll hear is the players are rubbish.

Both statements are wrong, but we can all agree that we are shiit.

 

[NLunited]

Ey, Nuno has taken forest from 17th to 2nd/3rd in the league. Anything is possible.

That there is a prime example of a coach formerly branded shiit showing he is more than capable.

None of the coaches we have had are shiit, in fact every one of them was very good.

 

[DJ_21]

That there is a prime example of a coach formerly branded shiit showing he is more than capable.

None of the coaches we have had are shiit, in fact every one of them was very good.

Moyes? Wouldn’t say he’s awful but wouldn’t say he’s very good either. He’s probably in the mid section. Worse we’ve had though, not by performances but just by name. All the others except ole are quite big names or successful names.

 

[devilish]

You're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that something has to be "wrong" in a player for a club to sell him and lose money.

There was nothing "wrong" with Courtois when Chelsea extremely begrudgingly sold him to Madrid for a measly 35m. There was nothing "wrong" with Michael Owen when Liverpool lost their best player for free. There was nothing "wrong" with Robin van Persia when Arsenal felt obliged to accept a lowly and frankly pathetic 24m for him from a rival.

There was nothing "wrong" with De Light with regards to Juve, they wanted him, tried to persuade him to stay, but he wanted desperately to leave, in that situation the club is nearly always losing out.

Ok it's perfectly normal, healthy even for clubs to keep losing money out of a transfer especially one surrounding a young talent. Happy now?

I am actually livid that we got so much money out of Ronaldo. We should have sold him for 5m

 

[NLunited]

Moyes? Wouldn’t say he’s awful but wouldn’t say he’s very good either. He’s probably in the mid section. Worse we’ve had though, not by performances but just by name. All the others except ole are quite big names or successful names.

Moyes isn‘t top top tier, but a very good coach. Do you agree he did well with West-Ham?

He was working in the already dysfunctional environment of MU. Fellaini transfer saga was insane.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ok it's perfectly normal, healthy even for clubs to keep losing money out of a transfer especially one surrounding a young talent. Happy now?

I am actually livid that we got so much money out of Ronaldo. We should have sold him for 5m

Now you’re just being silly aren’t you?

It’s not healthy for a club ever to lose money, but most clubs will be absolutely delighted if they can recoup 80% of a fee on a wantaway player. Let’s be honest here, we desperately needed Di Maria’s quality, but feck me, to a man we were all delighted with what we managed to get back from PSG.

The worry for all clubs is how often that 2 year remaining fee can dwindle with one year remaining if the player has shown he wants to leave.

Why are you acting like this is news to you? It’s exactly how football works.

 

[JoseM4]

That sounds ridiculous. But OK, say it's true - what has Amorim been doing so far during training then? Just running and chitchat?

Amorim’s new system may be successful after he spends more time on the training pitch with the players. But thus far I’ve seen little progress.

 

[Blood Mage]

Moyes isn‘t top top tier, but a very good coach. Do you agree he did well with West-Ham?

He was working in the already dysfunctional environment of MU. Fellaini transfer saga was insane.

I do think Moyes would have stuck around a bit longer had we signed Thiago instead of Fellaini.

 

[devilish]

the risk with this, is that after two or three days of isolation, the players start turning gay, which creates deep divides in the dressing room. you’ve got hojlund unhappy because no one is passing him around. shaw and mount’s hamstrings can’t take the elongated bumming sessions, so there’s no motivation for them to get fit. you’ve got rashford feigning interest and thumbing in softies. it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

I am more concerned about Henry winter tbh. At his age he might not be able to survive without his loved one

 

[NLunited]

I do think Moyes would have stuck around a bit longer had we signed Thiago instead of Fellaini.

ha yeah. I didn‘t mind Fellaini, I thought he was a useful player. What bothers me is paying MORE than the release clause for him!?!

 

[Champ]

Our performances and results improving is obviously more likely than being relegated. It's not like we're talking about a winning streak that will get us to the top 4. Just getting back to the performances that we had for Amorim's first 8 or so matches will see us move up the table and comfortably away from the bottom three.

A few matches where we've been really bad (and that's all it's been - a few) doesn't warrant the hysterical panicking that some are doing in here.

Whilst I agree with you mostly, why is our form improving more likely than the results staying largely the same as they are?
The metrics and base level stats suggest that we should be doing better than we are, if those metrics change on a downward slope, which is also wholly possible, then we really are in trouble.

Whilst there's hysteria by some, most on here including the manager are realistic enough to know that relegation is a realistic possibility if things don't change for the better.

 

[gaffs]

You're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that something has to be "wrong" in a player for a club to sell him and lose money.

There was nothing "wrong" with Courtois when Chelsea extremely begrudgingly sold him to Madrid for a measly 35m. There was nothing "wrong" with Michael Owen when Liverpool lost their best player for free. There was nothing "wrong" with Robin van Persia when Arsenal felt obliged to accept a lowly and frankly pathetic 24m for him from a rival.

There was nothing "wrong" with De Light with regards to Juve, they wanted him, tried to persuade him to stay, but he wanted desperately to leave, in that situation the club is nearly always losing out.

You dont know your history.

Courtois wanted to go back to Madrid for family reasons.
Owen didnt leave Liverpool for free. He ran down his contract as he wanted a move.
Arsenal didnt want RVP and didnt offer him a new contract.

Bayern wanted rid of De Light because they wanted quicker center backs. So, in their mind, there was something "wrong" with him.

He will be surplus to requirements by Amorim too because, if Amorim wants to recreate what he had at Sporting, he wants defenders with recovery pace than can play as high line and/or, ball players than can step into midfield. He will also want one with can play long balls into the channels like Sebastian Coates did for him.

 

[MadDogg]

You dont know your history.

Courtois wanted to go back to Madrid for family reasons.
Owen didnt leave Liverpool for free. He ran down his contract as he wanted a move.
Arsenal didnt want RVP and didnt offer him a new contract.

Bayern wanted rid of De Light because they wanted quicker center backs. So, in their mind, there was something "wrong" with him.

He will be surplus to requirements by Amorim too because, if Amorim wants to recreate what he had at Sporting, he wants defenders with recovery pace than can play as high line and/or, ball players than can step into midfield. He will also want one with can play long balls into the channels like Sebastian Coates did for him.

The disagreement is in the Juve to Bayern move, not the Bayern to us move. Bayern actively letting him go is a bit of a red flag, and the reasons for that ultimately may be an issue for us as well. But the Juve to Bayern move was completely different and there was nothing there that should be considered a red flag or that it shows something wrong with the player.

 

[El-Manos]

You dont know your history.

Courtois wanted to go back to Madrid for family reasons.
Owen didnt leave Liverpool for free. He ran down his contract as he wanted a move.
Arsenal didnt want RVP and didnt offer him a new contract.

Bayern wanted rid of De Light because they wanted quicker center backs. So, in their mind, there was something "wrong" with him.

He will be surplus to requirements by Amorim too because, if Amorim wants to recreate what he had at Sporting, he wants defenders with recovery pace than can play as high line and/or, ball players than can step into midfield. He will also want one with can play long balls into the channels like Sebastian Coates did for him.

They didn’t want the best player in the league ? You sure about that one.

 

[gaffs]

They didn’t want the best player in the league ? You sure about that one.

They didn't offer him a contract. RVP said so....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/robin-van-persie-arsenal-manutd-32050428

 

[gaffs]

The disagreement is in the Juve to Bayern move, not the Bayern to us move. Bayern actively letting him go is a bit of a red flag, and the reasons for that ultimately may be an issue for us as well. But the Juve to Bayern move was completely different and there was nothing there that should be considered a red flag or that it shows something wrong with the player.

The reason Bayern let him go seem far more pertinent.

 

[Cheimoon]

Amorim’s new system may be successful after he spends more time on the training pitch with the players. But thus far I’ve seen little progress.

So you're just saying he needs more time before you can judge him?

Also, isn't he clearly implementing his system already? I mean, United do play 3-4-3 now and approach games quite differently.

 

[André Dominguez]

Actually that's a valid point.


Villas-Boas signed a deal to become the new manager of Porto on 2 June 2010. Two months later, he won his first trophy as a manager when Porto defeated Benfica 2–0 to win the Portuguese Supercup.Villas-Boas went on to immense success with Porto, leading the team to an undefeated season in the Primeira Liga—only the second time this had ever been achieved—and winning the title by more than 20 points, having conceded only 13 goals all season. Villas-Boas went on to follow up this success by leading Porto to win both the Portuguese Cup and the UEFA Europa League, thus completing a treble in his first season in charge. By doing so, Villas-Boas became the third-youngest coach ever to win the Primeira Liga (behind Mihály Siska in 1939 and Juca in 1962) and the youngest manager ever to win a European competition, at the age of 33 years and 213 days. On 21 June 2011, Villas-Boas tendered his resignation as Porto manager.

Joined Chelsea sacked the same year.

Villas Boas at Porto benefited from having Vítor Pereira (current Wolves manager) as assistant manager, who is a tactics geek.

 

[D. Grayson]

First of all, what are these "achievements" at Spurs and PSG?

Secondly, Sporting won the league under Amorim after 18 years of Porto and Benfica dominating the league between them. And Amorim won two in four years.

To dismiss this because it was done in a weaker league is just lazy. SAF's biggest achievement was breaking a 15 year long Celtic Rangers dominance. And the Scottish league is hardly a top league in Europe.

Sir Alex's biggest achievement was European success with a team from a weaker league. Pochettino took Spurs to the Champions League final, while Amorim's most successful European campaign ended with a quarter-final exit in the Europa League.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Villas Boas at Porto benefited from having Vítor Pereira (current Wolves manager) as assistant manager, who is a tactics geek.

That's interesting to know.

 

[MadDogg]

The reason Bayern let him go seem far more pertinent.

It is the most relevant, yes. But Devilish and others try to claim the Juve to Bayern move was the same to try to make out multiple top clubs have actively chosen to get rid of him, which paints a much worse picture than just one club doing it. When in reality it was De Ligt forcing the move, and Juventus simply did the right thing for the club by getting most of their money back.

 

[noodlehair]

I came here expecting a long tedious debate about Manchester United manager Ruben Amorim, and instead am greeted with a long tedious debate about whether De Ligt left Juventus because he isn't fast enough to play for Man Utd.

I demand my money back

 

[Ish]

I came here expecting a long tedious debate about Manchester United manager Ruben Amorim, and instead am greeted with a long tedious debate about whether De Ligt left Juventus because he isn't fast enough to play for Man Utd.

I demand my money back

you’ll only get 80% of it back though - consider yourself lucky!

 

[JoseM4]

So you're just saying he needs more time before you can judge him?

Also, isn't he clearly implementing his system already? I mean, United do play 3-4-3 now and approach games quite differently.

Correct, I haven’t passed judgment on Amorim yet though I’m becoming less optimistic.

I care more about results than the system of play but we don’t get results, every Amorim decision will get scrutinized.

With a full week on the training pitch, let’s see what his game plan is for Liverpool. I’m terrified at the prospect of Salah running 1v1 at Martinez …. especially if Martinez picks up an early yellow card.

 

[erikcred]

Sir Alex's biggest achievement was European success with a team from a weaker league. Pochettino took Spurs to the Champions League final, while Amorim's most successful European campaign ended with a quarter-final exit in the Europa League.

We were talking about Amorim achieving something that no one outside Porto and Benfica achieved for 18 years. You completely ignore that to shift the goal posts to European competition, where Pochettino didn't even win! That's not an "achievement"! Didn't even come close ever again to the final. It was obviously a fluke appearance.

We were talking about league titles and you've forgotten his biggest achievement -- coming third in a two horse title race with Leicester in the one season where he had a chance to win the title.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

They didn't offer him a contract. RVP said so....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/robin-van-persie-arsenal-manutd-32050428

It appears you do not know your history here. He wasn’t offered a new deal because he first wanted talks with the club about ambition and it was clear to them both that the players ambition far out stripped of the club.
Aftrr those meetings the player wrote on his own website that he would not be renewing his deal and thus forced the club into a situation where they had to lose him for free the following year or sell him now.

I've thought long and hard about it, but I have decided not to extend my contract," the Dutchman, at the club since 2004, wrote on his website.

He said he wasn’t interested in talking financial terms or an offer with them as that was not his priority, winning things was.

Here was Wenger at the time talking about his opinion on “wanting rid”…

We want to keep Robin van Persie at all costs, because we depend on him offensively. I have always supported him, even in the hardest times, and I hope he will end his career at Arsenal.

Not sure how giving me an example that Owen moved to Madrid for free somehow proves he didn’t move to Madrid for free?

Also not sure how proving that Courtois told Chelsea he needed to move and demanded it somehow proves that he didn’t demand the move and thus forced Chelsea to accept a lower fee.

 

[DSG]

So you're just saying he needs more time before you can judge him?

Also, isn't he clearly implementing his system already? I mean, United do play 3-4-3 now and approach games quite differently.

I think the Caf is obsessed with the system and we really shouldn’t be. Amorim has said this himself when speaking to the beat journalists.

We need to focus on the progress we see on the pitch. Do we possess the ball more? Do we see patterns of play when attacking? Is the high press coordinated?

I do think there are Amorim’s principles, but they are more about how to defend, how to attack, not really about the 3-4-2-1. He happens to think that the 3-4-2-1 is the best way to follow and uphold those principles, but you can see when we are attacking, we have a 3-2-5 formation. It’s not that different from Arteta or Pep moving a FB into midfield to pair with Rodri.

The poor results are a combination of a few individual mistakes, some small issues with execution in adhering to his principles, and some players in roles that they aren’t particularly suited for. The last one we’ll have to buy to fix, but the other two will resolve themselves as we move forward.

Hopeful Amorim can win a few matches to reduce the pressure on himself and the squad.

 

[Acquire Me]

I think the Caf is obsessed with the system and we really shouldn’t be. Amorim has said this himself when speaking to the beat journalists.

We need to focus on the progress we see on the pitch. Do we possess the ball more? Do we see patterns of play when attacking? Is the high press coordinated?

I do think there are Amorim’s principles, but they are more about how to defend, how to attack, not really about the 3-4-2-1. He happens to think that the 3-4-2-1 is the best way to follow and uphold those principles, but you can see when we are attacking, we have a 3-2-5 formation. It’s not that different from Arteta or Pep moving a FB into midfield to pair with Rodri.

The poor results are a combination of a few individual mistakes, some small issues with execution in adhering to his principles, and some players in roles that they aren’t particularly suited for. The last one we’ll have to buy to fix, but the other two will resolve themselves as we move forward.

Hopeful Amorim can win a few matches to reduce the pressure on himself and the squad.

Correct. Some weeks ago he also said they will play a fluent game with different formations. It’s just that everything starts from 3-4-3.

 

[bond19821982]

If he can weather this storm and somehow manage to stay in the job, this would be his luckiest job. Expectations are rock bottom, reasonable money will spent in summer and he will get enough time to prove his mettle.

 

[Cheimoon]

I think the Caf is obsessed with the system and we really shouldn’t be. Amorim has said this himself when speaking to the beat journalists.

We need to focus on the progress we see on the pitch. Do we possess the ball more? Do we see patterns of play when attacking? Is the high press coordinated?

I do think there are Amorim’s principles, but they are more about how to defend, how to attack, not really about the 3-4-2-1. He happens to think that the 3-4-2-1 is the best way to follow and uphold those principles, but you can see when we are attacking, we have a 3-2-5 formation. It’s not that different from Arteta or Pep moving a FB into midfield to pair with Rodri.

The poor results are a combination of a few individual mistakes, some small issues with execution in adhering to his principles, and some players in roles that they aren’t particularly suited for. The last one we’ll have to buy to fix, but the other two will resolve themselves as we move forward.

Hopeful Amorim can win a few matches to reduce the pressure on himself and the squad.

I agree. Not generally, formations are very fluid now.among top clubs, and will change depending on the phase of play and other circumstances. They do something about initial positioning though, and as such require players to understand what's expected from them. But I agree that the other aspects you mention are more important.

Correct, I haven’t passed judgment on Amorim yet though I’m becoming less optimistic.

I care more about results than the system of play but we don’t get results, every Amorim decision will get scrutinized.

With a full week on the training pitch, let’s see what his game plan is for Liverpool. I’m terrified at the prospect of Salah running 1v1 at Martinez …. especially if Martinez picks up an early yellow card.

Well, fair enough then!

 

[lex talionis]

The way I see it is that it isn't so much that the tactics aren't working as it is that basic skills have fallen through the floor. Man marking on free kicks has been horrifying, missed easy passes in midfield, gilt-edged chances on goal botched. And more, but that's enough.

I wish I could be sure what to recommend to Amorim at the moment. I lean toward embracing salvaging this season with whatever tactics are necessary rather than persevering with these tactics, which may or may not be related to the breakdown in basic skills, and risking relegation. In the summer, he can teach these players and hopefully the new players as well how to play football.

 

[Raoul]

The way I see it is that it isn't so much that the tactics aren't working as it is that basic skills have fallen through the floor. Man marking on free kicks has been horrifying, missed easy passes in midfield, gilt-edged chances on goal botched. And more, but that's enough.

I wish I could be sure what to recommend to Amorim at the moment. I lean toward embracing salvaging this season with whatever tactics are necessary rather than persevering with these tactics, which may or may not be related to the breakdown in basic skills, and risking relegation. In the summer, he can teach these players and hopefully the new players as well how to play football.

The tactics and formation aren't working because he doesn't have the players with the skills and mindset necessary to implement his philosophy. That doesn't mean he needs a brand new Starting XI, but it does expose the harsh reality that no manager can improve us if we simply can't score goals. Therefore a world class striker who has consistently demonstrated scoring a lot of goals over the past year or two is absolutely critical. Once we have that, all of the pieces will magically begin to take shape.

 

[DJ_21]

Moyes isn‘t top top tier, but a very good coach. Do you agree he did well with West-Ham?

He was working in the already dysfunctional environment of MU. Fellaini transfer saga was insane.

Ye he did a decent job at West Ham to be fair.

 

[Daengophile]

The tactics and formation aren't working because he doesn't have the players with the skills and mindset necessary to implement his philosophy. That doesn't mean he needs a brand new Starting XI, but it does expose the harsh reality that no manager can improve us if we simply can't score goals. Therefore a world class striker who has consistently demonstrated scoring a lot of goals over the past year or two is absolutely critical. Once we have that, all of the pieces will magically begin to take shape.

I do wonder if Ashworth called this out

 

[PlasticRed]

We basically want to be Inter Milan. Except we dont have Barella, Dimarco, Lautarez, Thuram and Bastoni quality players to pull it off. Ironically, McTominay would have been useful in this type of system and is doing well under Conte who plays similar football.

 

[PlasticRed]

I do wonder if Ashworth called this out

He blatantly did and then there was a pursuing power struggle and Ashworth lost. I assume it was Berrada that wanted Amorim.

 

[SparcMac]

We basically want to be Inter Milan. Ironically, McTominay would have been useful in this type of system and is doing well under Conte who plays similar football.

Ou Ou Ou, Conte plays nothing like Insaghi's Inter does. Conte's midfield is very brute and strong, Insaghi's preferred midfield trio is very technical and hard working.

 

[devilish]

Now you’re just being silly aren’t you?

It’s not healthy for a club ever to lose money, but most clubs will be absolutely delighted if they can recoup 80% of a fee on a wantaway player. Let’s be honest here, we desperately needed Di Maria’s quality, but feck me, to a man we were all delighted with what we managed to get back from PSG.

The worry for all clubs is how often that 2 year remaining fee can dwindle with one year remaining if the player has shown he wants to leave.

Why are you acting like this is news to you? It’s exactly how football works.

Actually its frustration from a person who had been following the Serie A for decades and who has friends have been Juventus supporters for longer time than I was born (watching every game, going to Turin regularly and switching to Italian when writing about the Serie A which I find incredibly stupid considering that we're more comfortable writing in other languages but I degress). It would be like a PSG fan insisting with you on why we allowed Cristiano Ronaldo to leave.

Juventus thought they got a new Scirea by signing De Ligt. They paid over the odds in terms of salary and fees to get him. Turned out that he while he was a neat player he wasn't even a Chiellini. As time went by resentment grew on both sides with Juventus believing that he's not producing enough to justify such salary and De Ligt perceiving the lack of high profile signings as lack of ambition. Ultimately the former were proven right as De Ligt fount himself in a very similar situation 2 years after at Bayern. Once again it wasn't about De Ligt being shit. Its a matter of him being paid way more then he should

Some people underestimate how central the wage structure is for a well run club. Manchester United came inches away from losing PRIME Roy Keane FOR FREE because they resisted giving in to his salary demands. The reason isn't because United (or other clubs) are stingy or lack ambition. Its because players tend to gauge their salary demands on their highest earner. Thus if a player is earning 600k for producing 6/10 performance (I know that's salary is ridiculous but lets keep the maths simple) then someone on 8/10 performance will demand 800k and someone who can only produce 3/10 performance will expect at least 300k. But that's not all. If others aren't paying anywhere near to what your club is paying in terms of salary then good luck getting rid of unwanted players. I shouldn't even be talking about this because Manchester United are in that exact position. That's the reason why De Ligt chose us (no other big club could be arsed to pay that salary at that point) and its the reason why our club is becoming the football version of Hotel California ie "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

To conclude, De Ligt is nowhere near as hated with Juventus fans as ADM is with United fans. There's a very good reason for that. De Ligt moved to Juventus for other motives rather then simply a cash grab. He genuinely believed that they would develop him in a better player and he wanted to become a legend there.