I would rather have a stable base than waste another year on the potential that may never come good and then have to start again.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I would rather have a stable base than waste another year on the potential that may never come good and then have to start again.
I'm all in for Amorim but I do wonder if we cannot just do a more conventional set up with like a 4231 until we get some wingbacks in the summer. He's not abandoning his style permanently but just for this season. Then during the summer we can train whoever remains, and get some players that fit his system. I only think this is a good idea because we are absolute tripe at the moment.
In a league he had vast experience and knowledge off.
Sure, but both were United legends who knows the club and the league.
I hope he pulls through and we start looking like his Sporting side, that would be lovely. But if we don’t starting winning the players confidence levels will continue to drop and the performance often follows. Further, if we don’t starting winning the money will soon start to vanish with big sponsors choosing other teams and Europe will be nothing but a long lost memory.
Because stable top 4 for a few years gives us lots and lots of money to improve the squad to the point where there is every chance that the quality of the squad will be enough to make up for "the ceiling".
Ey, Nuno has taken forest from 17th to 2nd/3rd in the league. Anything is possible.
Unfortunately Amorim doesn't have winning 4 leagues in a row prior to this to fall back on. Even then if it continues at City Pep will be gone, despite his credit in the bank.
Pragmatic. It's all very safe but you aren't going to get anywhere. The time to bring Pochettino in was either following Van Gaal or after Ole's interim stint. I guess it's just a bit of a depressing thought - appointing a manager who you have no faith in taking you to the top.
I'm not convinced that the quality of the squad will ever be good enough to cover for a manager's limitations. Not in a sustainable way anyway. I don't doubt that Pochettino could take us to the top 4, much like I imagine Emery could. Though I like the idea of appointing someone who could give us more.
Eh? Mourinho got second and with 7 more points than Ole ever managed.
Neither was ”close” though.
They’re referring to that period over the winter of the 2020-21, including new year, when we were top of the table. We fell off in January/February though.
I don’t think he even needs abandon his back 3, but against sides like Wolves we should never ever play with 5 defenders.
The pragmatism should come from being braver and playing more attacking players against ”lesser” sides, and maybe a more reserved approach against the top sides.
We’re we outright top of the table for one single week, after matchday 17?
By the following week City were 2 points behind with a game in hand, the week after City were 1 point ahead with a game in hand and never looked back.
I can’t remember. But yeah the title was pretty much City’s to lose from February onwards.
I completely agree, Amorim needs to be a little more pragmatic in the short term. But unfortunately, just like Ange at Tottenham, it’s probably not going to happen.
From matchday 18 onwards, not even half a season, February sounds way too kind, you’ve usually played 23-24 games by Feb.
I don’t think Pochettino is the answer either, but he would get more out of the squad we have now than Ruben will. I think our squad is fairly average on a good day, but we have some good players that you can maximise e.g. Mazraoui, Bruno, Amad. With Ruben I would say all three of those players are having to play a position that doesn’t really suit them, that’s before you look at players like Dalot and Garnacho that aren’t at that high a level to begin with. I like Amorim a lot, but we’re going to have to make unpopular decisions with the squad to get it to suit a back three, time will tell if it is actually worth doing.
Agreed that the current squad would be an easier transition for Pochettino, but ultimately, what would be the end goal? Reach top 4, sack him and then bring in someone who we can win a title with? You say unpopular decisions need to made in regards to the squad, but are we really going to lose out on anyone worth keeping because they don't suit the system? Garnacho maybe? I think Amorim can get a tune out of Mainoo and Amad.
I agreed I wouldn’t go for Poch specifically, But other managers if available could have got this squad up to speed more quickly and perhaps without needing to spend as much. I think there is a chance that all the players I listed could be moved on if they can’t fit, including Mazraoui and Amad who have been very good especially under Ruud. It’s a big ask to need very specific players out wide that will likely be expensive, especially considering our history of sacking a manager and completely destroying the previous style of play rather than adaption and improvement.
Seems like Amorim has 2 reasonable routes to success:
1. Modify his system in the short term to fit the players’ strengths OR
2. Coach the players to play his system.
Thus far Amorim has selected neither path.
For me he has to get a tune of out this current crop, maybe if we can bring a wing back in for him asap but the other positions he needs to show he can do something with what he has.
We can’t simply throw another 3 years and 300m building yet another squad for yet another completely different style of football on a hope that this time it works.
Hopefully we can get a wing back in Jan, he proves himself that he can get the back 3 and wingbacks working with Ugarte and Bruno and then he’ll deserve a striker and couple of other positions in the Summer.
What, you don’t think he’s trying to coach the players to play his system?
The amount of rubbish spouted on here these days is unreal. Football fans are in the gutter.
Close to a title challenge, not a title - hence the "close". City finished on 100 points in that Mourinho season.
Aye, neither were remotely close to a title challenge.
Arsenal have been, Liverpool, not us, not since Fergie, nowhere near a title challenge.
Spot on. People are wetting the bed.
He told us this would happen. Hell this is what happened at Sporting. By all means blame the club for the timing and the fact that it’s the opposite of ten hag. But for gods sake let the man get on with it, put on your seatbelts and hang on.
This current form is likely to be one win in seven on Sunday, less than 3 wins in the second part of the season.
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Nah, that path has two results:
1. You show the players that you’ll bend over for them, the same way ETH did, and you might get a few results early on but eventually our lack of system will result in the same issues we’ve had for the past 10 years. What happens next season? Do the existing players just down tools so they can play a system they want?
2. If we wait until pre-season to implement his system, it will still take real games to learn how to apply the tactics in high pressure environments. So you basically write off the start of next season too.
Look we are going horrible at the moment, but I’ll take one horrible year, over 2 mediocre years.
I think he is more suggesting he hasn't because he doesn't have enough time. The dude literally came right before the crazy period with games coming "thick and fast" as the English say.What, you don’t think he’s trying to coach the players to play his system?
The amount of rubbish spouted on here these days is unreal. Football fans are in the gutter.
I mean it doesn't have to be all or nothing. We could try to implement it against lesser sides.
For example, we are going to play Liverpool shortly.
My one criticism of Amorim is that there have been instances where something has worked and he hasn't built on that. Like not playing that Amad and Antony combination on the right when it showed promise the couple of times he tried it. As a next step, for the CBs, he should pick his best 3 and leave it alone for some time (injuries have forced his hand to some extent). Let it gel a bit rather than having confused players all over the pitch.
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He is still experimenting and getting to know his squad. He’s learning what does and doesn’t work.
Is that you, Amadaeus?
I understand, but at some point he has to invest in experiments that show some promise. If we keep losing without progress, the backlash will become louder and louder, players will down tools and he will create more problems for himself.
That sounds ridiculous. But OK, say it's true - what has Amorim been doing so far during training then? Just running and chitchat?
Van Gaal brought in Shaw, Rojo, Mata, DiMaria, Falcao, Blind, Memphis, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Scheiderlin, a blend of control and mercurial talent with a couple of stars. The magic was coming back.
Mourinho got Lukaku, Pogba, Zlatan, Mkhitaryan, Matic, Sanchez, Lindelof, Bailly, Fred, and Dalot. That was to solve LVG’s static play. Mourinho wanted half a new squad every season. Maybe that’s what it takes: soon as they suss out your team’s weaknesses, you’re cooked, so bring in 6 new players every year. Him saying getting 2nd with his United squad as his biggest achievement (or one of) illustrates this.
Ole brought in Bruno, Cavani, Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane, Maguire, AWB, Amad, Pellistri. big Money defender, world class strikers, world class right wing.
Ten Hag’s 21 players include: Højlund, Casemiro, Antony, Onana, Martinez, DeLigt, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Zirkzee, *Garnacho, *Mainoo, Mount, Malacia, Amrabat, Weghorst, Reguilón, Sabitzer, Yoro, Eriksen.
Every full manager since Moyes has had a secret style that needed a full rebuild to implement. Just looking at some of those players’ names is breathtaking. And here we are again: new manager, new style, needs full rebuild. I’ve heard this one before. LVG and JM were past their sell-by date but both were great managers before United.
If Shaw and Mount hadn’t gotten injured, and Højlund had a debut season to match Rashford’s first big season - would Ten Hag ball be working? If we were to sell/dump half this squad and buy him 6 new players, would his style work then? I think it would. How many of the other top PL clubs are playing some radical style, instead of just playing good players effectively? Forest is in 3rd and not because of some revolutionary system.
If our plan is to have 9 of the starting 11 new players every 3rd year, then we’re just vacuuming up talent and the system isnt really that important. That’s what Pep did. He brought in over 35 players in 8 years, and didn’t really have to worry about money. We are trying to compete with that, which won’t happen.
We’ve brought in over 50 players since Moyes. We’ve been a possession team, a front footed attacking team, a counterattacking team relying on individual magic, and most recently a transition team. Every new manager has a new plan and only needs a few hundred million £s of players to implement the scheme. I feel we’ve been had by conmen. So the new plan is yet another rebuild that will take years to bear fruit, after we’ve bought 10 - 15 new players, with zero Malacias and Zirkzees in the lot. So we will finish out of Europe this season in the mad hope that a couple of the current players can adapt to something they haven’t shown even the slightest of hints that they can do. Is the jury really still out on these players? We’ve been hearing this “here comes the messiah” story since Moyes’ hasty departure.
Mourinho got Lukaku, Pogba, Zlatan, Mkhitaryan, Matic, Sanchez, Lindelof, Bailly, Fred, and Dalot. That was to solve LVG’s static play. Mourinho wanted half a new squad every season. Maybe that’s what it takes: soon as they suss out your team’s weaknesses, you’re cooked, so bring in 6 new players every year. Him saying getting 2nd with his United squad as his biggest achievement (or one of) illustrates this.
Ole brought in Bruno, Cavani, Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane, Maguire, AWB, Amad, Pellistri. big Money defender, world class strikers, world class right wing.
Ten Hag’s 21 players include: Højlund, Casemiro, Antony, Onana, Martinez, DeLigt, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Zirkzee, *Garnacho, *Mainoo, Mount, Malacia, Amrabat, Weghorst, Reguilón, Sabitzer, Yoro, Eriksen.
Every full manager since Moyes has had a secret style that needed a full rebuild to implement. Just looking at some of those players’ names is breathtaking. And here we are again: new manager, new style, needs full rebuild. I’ve heard this one before. LVG and JM were past their sell-by date but both were great managers before United.
If Shaw and Mount hadn’t gotten injured, and Højlund had a debut season to match Rashford’s first big season - would Ten Hag ball be working? If we were to sell/dump half this squad and buy him 6 new players, would his style work then? I think it would. How many of the other top PL clubs are playing some radical style, instead of just playing good players effectively? Forest is in 3rd and not because of some revolutionary system.
If our plan is to have 9 of the starting 11 new players every 3rd year, then we’re just vacuuming up talent and the system isnt really that important. That’s what Pep did. He brought in over 35 players in 8 years, and didn’t really have to worry about money. We are trying to compete with that, which won’t happen.
We’ve brought in over 50 players since Moyes. We’ve been a possession team, a front footed attacking team, a counterattacking team relying on individual magic, and most recently a transition team. Every new manager has a new plan and only needs a few hundred million £s of players to implement the scheme. I feel we’ve been had by conmen. So the new plan is yet another rebuild that will take years to bear fruit, after we’ve bought 10 - 15 new players, with zero Malacias and Zirkzees in the lot. So we will finish out of Europe this season in the mad hope that a couple of the current players can adapt to something they haven’t shown even the slightest of hints that they can do. Is the jury really still out on these players? We’ve been hearing this “here comes the messiah” story since Moyes’ hasty departure.
I agree with this, tried saying much the same idea, just not as cogently as you did.
And I’m sure he will, but it might be longer than 10 games to completely see what he is working with. I doubt there are any expectations this season, so he has time to find out who he can use and what he needs. He is also clearly under no illusions about needing results and is definitely someone who hates losing. Let the man work!
That's largely how I am as well. Performances under Amorim were fine (not necessarily great, but fine) up until the last two or three matches. It was basically what I was expecting - a change in style of play, with our performances improving quite a bit over what we saw with ETH but results only improving slightly as we were let down by individual mistakes. Then we had the last couple of matches where our performance levels dropped right back down and Amorim did make a couple of fairly obvious mistakes with his line-ups.
The next two matches are obviously two of the most difficult we'll face all season with us being marked underdogs for both.
My expectations after that will be tempered on whether we are able to bring in any reinforcements in the window, particularly at wingback. If we aren't able to purchase anyone, my expectations are basically to get back to how we were playing before this recent collapse. It's not great, but it'll be enough to move up the table and hopefully make a proper attempt in the Europa (although that's more a hope than an expectation). If that doesn't happen and we continue with this recent collapse for too long then I'll start getting worried. If we do manage to bring a player or two in who are able to slot straight into the team, then my expectations will increase a bit further.