Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

The Firestarter said:
What I want is to not be in a relegation scrap. Another thing I would prefer is if a group of players cannot learn a system or are ill equipped for it , then stop trying to empirically define insanity. Use what they are capable for temporarily and then buy the players you need in the summer . That's the pragmatic approach. Because it may well turn out the current group is not suited to this system. And you cannot replace the group in January.
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Exactly this.

Some would say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Amorim may be able to realise his vision if can survive a few transfer windows. But there's no way United can flirt with relegation and he survives. Don't care what any journalist says.

The reality is Sir Jim bought into United to give himself a legacy of restoring it to glory, not to see the club fighting against the drop.

If we get stuffed by Liverpool playing Amorim's system he will be in the danger zone, if he isn't already.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
I am sick of all those posts on internet who are absolutely convinced he is the guy and losing consecutive games is the way to success.

Maybe he is, maybe not. But it is not a given. Ineos is also a huge work in progress with their decisions still hardly reliable and question marks on what they are doing.
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There are alot of deluded fans on this forum with their head in the sand. This is worse than ETH atm. We are in relegation form, losing 5 or last 6. Not scored in 270m of football. We havnt scored a single goal when Amorim has played Mazraoui and Dalot as wing backs (I think I heard on tv).

We dont look like scoring ever, and cant keep a clean sheet.
 
#07 said:
Exactly this.

Some would say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Amorim may be able to realise his vision if can survive a few transfer windows. But there's no way United can flirt with relegation and he survives. Don't care what any journalist says.

The reality is Sir Jim bought into United to give himself a legacy of restoring it to glory, not to see the club fighting against the drop.

If we get stuffed by Liverpool playing Amorim's system he will be in the danger zone, if he isn't already.
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If come April we are couple of points above the bottom three , he will be out of the door pronto . Hell, seeing what Ratcliffe did with Ashworth, he's not of the patient kind. It might happen much earlier.
 
#07 said:
Exactly this.

Some would say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Amorim may be able to realise his vision if can survive a few transfer windows. But there's no way United can flirt with relegation and he survives. Don't care what any journalist says.

The reality is Sir Jim bought into United to give himself a legacy of restoring it to glory, not to see the club fighting against the drop.

If we get stuffed by Liverpool playing Amorim's system he will be in the danger zone, if he isn't already.
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Amorim is just as bad as Postecoglou. Sometimes you just need to get points in anyway possible. RA wont change. we will lose games and he will get sacked.

The only thing that can save him is Jan transfer window. But all the noises are Utd are skint. Plus what quality player would want to come here considering where we are in the league.

He has to win games to make us more attractive as a destination. That has been completely missed in his thinking.
 
The Firestarter said:
What I want is to not be in a relegation scrap. Another thing I would prefer is if a group of players cannot learn a system or are ill equipped for it , then stop trying to empirically define insanity. Use what they are capable for temporarily and then buy the players you need in the summer . That's the pragmatic approach. Because it may well turn out the current group is not suited to this system. And you cannot replace the group in January.
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So like i said youre happy with just ST gain. Its ridiculous this level of thinking and Im glad Amorim isnt changing. So lets say he switches to a back 4, and players perform well in that system, how will he know which players to weed out if he doesnt play his system this season because long term he is going to play at 3-4-2-1.
 
RDCR07 said:
So like i said youre happy with just ST gain. Its ridiculous this level of thinking and Im glad Amorim isnt changing. So lets say he switches to a back 4, and players perform well in that system, how will he know which players to weed out if he doesnt play his system this season because long term he is going to play at 3-4-2-1.
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If by ST gain you mean not getting humiliated every week till the end of the season, then yes, you got me, I am happy with ST gain.
 
Eyepopper said:
When you take the suicidal option of starting with Eriksen & Casemiro in central MF; and Zirkzee on the left of a front 3.. and then, after 30 mins, have to sub in Mainoo into CM, hang Zirkzee out to dry and push Eriksen to LW; sorry that's on the manager/head coach...

He's 100% out of his depth.
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I’m starting to lose patience with Amorim.

Team tactics and squad selection are 100% on the manager.

We need to show some improvement in the quality of our play even if we lose. Eventually those losses will turn into wins. But thus far, I’ve seen zero improvement.
 
The Firestarter said:
What I want is to not be in a relegation scrap. Another thing I would prefer is if a group of players cannot learn a system or are ill equipped for it , then stop trying to empirically define insanity. Use what they are capable for temporarily and then buy the players you need in the summer . That's the pragmatic approach. Because it may well turn out the current group is not suited to this system. And you cannot replace the group in January.
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I think this is all very valid. I think Amorim has perhaps realised over the past month how limited these player really are.

We fans know, they never really played anything that looked like a "system" under Ten Hag. Did we score many goals because we built up in a particular way that allowed us to find time or space to create and score goals? Did we even show any repeatable patterns of play, like other teams?

No, most of our goals and wins over the last year or so came from "individual moments". There is a reason we only scored 58 goals both of the last two PL seasons.

We have played "ad hoc" football for some time and relied on that fact that we have certain players that can create moments. That only gets you so far.

Forget that "system". It is largly ireleventt becuase the 433 got the last manager sacked and we were 13th then, so it is clearly more than that. You saw tonight that some of these players cant even do the basics, so how relevant is it what system they play in when your forward cant hold the ball up or your midfield has no legs?

Unless you want managers to let them keep playing "ad hoc" football and keep finishing midtable, then you have to allow someone time to come in and enact a system. And its not easy when you come in November and have 11 games in 50 days and you have a squad so bad that you would struggle to name anyone you would be confident in building a team around.

Shit, i mean, maybe beyond Mainoo because of his potential, Liverpool, City or Arsenal wouldn't want any United player. And i doubt Newcastle or Villa would either.

We are not getting relegated. We will get some players back soon like Bruno and Ugarte. I would much rather Amorim rip the band aid off this team and find out who has it in them to continue on the journey. Much better than limping on by being "pragmatic", only to finish 8th. Because where does that get us?
 
RDCR07 said:
So like i said youre happy with just ST gain. Its ridiculous this level of thinking and Im glad Amorim isnt changing. So lets say he switches to a back 4, and players perform well in that system, how will he know which players to weed out if he doesnt play his system this season because long term he is going to play at 3-4-2-1.
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At this rate, he will get weeded out before he find out which player is capable of what. 10 real competitive games are more than sufficient to get an idea. Even full preseason have less games, and they have stamina and fitness development side to it. This is on amarim now.
 
PlasticRed said:
Amorim is just as bad as Postecoglou. Sometimes you just need to get points in anyway possible. RA wont change. we will lose games and he will get sacked.
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No, there is a time and a place for pragmatism. I don’t believe that time is when you are trying to implement something completely new. You need the repetition of doing it over and again to learn and improve. Flip flopping tactics at this point will only confuse the players and make them worse.

Amorim is also laying down the law according to him and setting the precedent/standards. If he deviates this early he will weaken his position.

Your example of Postecoglu is flawed too, as he has been at Spurs far longer and is dealing with an injury crisis. The players know his system and expectations by now, but they can be excellent it atrocious depending on which way the wind blows. That’s just how it is at Spurs!

We must allow this season to be a failure results wise to build the squad playing style wise and we should have the resolve to back Amorim and see this through.
 
Nevilles.Wear.Prada said:
At this rate, he will get weeded out before he find out which player is capable of what. 10 real competitive games are more than sufficient to get an idea. Even full preseason have less games, and they have stamina and fitness development side to it. This is on amarim now.
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And according to Amorim thats fine by him. He did things his say and if he didnt work he can sleep with that. But if he does something he has never done and is sacked, then there will always be regret.
 
The Firestarter said:
If by ST gain you mean not getting humiliated every week till the end of the season, then yes, you got me, I am happy with ST gain.
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You talk as if we werent getting humiliated playing with a back 4 under Ten Hag. Im glad our manager doesn't think this way. I am glad he is smart enough to know switching systems every week wont work. I am happy to write this season off if it means we will be miles better next season. Have a good night!
 
crackers0seven said:
Shocked how many posters think he's out of his depth. I think we need a poll.
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I don't think he's out of his depth, I think he's a stubborn git married to a niche system which is beyond the ability of our squad to execute, and it's killing us. His refusal to be pragmatic will cause us to lose many more games until someone has a word or he gets sacked.

I mean, he knows we don't have money for signings in January, so what is he doing?
 
Eyepopper said:
If your making serious structural changes to your team after 30 mins you've fecked up with your selection.
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We didnt have Bruno and Ugarte. Mainoo started the last 2 games and he has said injuries have been a problem so he needs to manage the squad better. So he wasnt going to risk Mainoo by starting him 3 games in a row. So btw Mainoo did not have a good game against Bournemouth or at Wolves. So it could be performance related as well.

Lets look at the options at #10 - Rashford wasnt going to start for obvious reasons. Garnacho is the only other option and he didnt exactly set the world alight when he came on. At least Mainoo put in a good performance tonight. Who else is there to play as a #10 other than Zirkzee
 
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His to-die with back 3 starts to piss me off. We're losing 0-2, and we still use back 3 that contribute nothing to attack.
 
crackers0seven said:
Shocked how many posters think he's out of his depth. I think we need a poll.
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What does "out of his depth" even mean?

I would love to know the manager who could get a tune out of this lot? Ten Hag couldn't get much out of them and he had prior history with many from his Ajax days.

Zirksee and Hojland are our forwards, ffs. Two players signed after scoring less than 10 each in a Serie A for mid teams. Both played in a pairs for those teams, so never lead the line solo. Neither can hold up the ball and link up play effectively. What use are they for a top Premier League team? Or even any PL team?

An example of how bad any manager coming into MUFC would have had it. Our top earners at the club.....

Casemiro - shot and came to MUFC for his pension to be topped up.
Bruno - has moments, but petulant and arguably unconducive to ever playing in a modern football system.
Rashford - disinterested, sulking and wants a "new challenge".
Mount - crock
Antony - crap

I would love to know another football club where you have the 5 top players who offer so little. Your top earners should be the backbone of your team. Ours are a liability and most fans would love all to be gone.

So when we says "is Amorim out of his depth", wouldn't any manager when they are drowning in a sea of mediocrity?

Stick with Amorim. The man has a plan and he knows what he wants - i trust him to identify and coach, modern, hungry, technical players. Lets remember the stories about how his players at Sporting would run through a wall for him. You cant instill that overnight, especially when the team is unfit compared to most PL teams.

If managers at United keep softening their approach and lowering their standards because of pressure, we are going to keep changing managers every few of years.

The season was already pretty much over when Amorim took over, so he has a free hit for me - even if there will be some bad results. 8th or 16th - it matters not. I hope he gets more time with the team in Jan and Feb when the fixtures slow down and starts instilling some believe. He can then identify the players he needs out and those who he can get something out of in the medium term.
 
I feel very sorry for him. He’s joined a dysfunctional organisation, with a clown show off the pitch and a very mediocre squad on it. He must wish he’d stayed at Sporting; he had built a cracking side there. I hope he perseveres with his philosophy and clears out as many of the squad as he can. If he bows to player demands, it will be the end of yet another manager.
 
gaffs said:
Exactly. He had time to develop that great system at Sporting. He needs certain pieces to make it work and time to get the players to learn it. With this lot, that does seem a while away because, as we see tonight, some cant even do the basics well. We have a forward who cant hold up the ball and a midget center back who cant defend a cross - The Butcher has been blunted!

Considering the majority of fans haven't even watched a Sporting game, I think Amorim is best places to work out what he feels is best for his system, with the limited resources he has currently. If he thinks its better to play Maz and Dallot at wing back, then im sure it is because he thinks other would be worse. Though unfortunately, without airing the dirty laundry, a manager cant give his real reasons, so all we hear is one opinion from the pundits like Jamie Carragher. Even though his points re Maz and Dallot may be valid, I think the man who won titles with this system knows better.

United have invested in Amorim not just to get a quick bounce, it is for the long term.

Some of you lot wouldn't be much good with investments. You would sell your stock at the first sign of a dip.
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Yep. People are hell bent on comparing what he did at Sporting versus here and completely ignore he actually had a functioning side there. Thats why I said when he took over, I would gladly take their starting XI along with Amorim and give them our entire first XI.
 
RuudTom83 said:
I’m not sure what magical formation wouldn’t require CB’s to head the ball?

If they need months of training and diagrams to explain that basic principle then we are truly fecked.

Amazing how the “playing 3 at the back” will become the latest excuse.
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Yeah, the players all of a sudden forget basic concepts of defending and attacking because the manager asked them to play in different spaces on the pitch. I don't get all of this nonsense that these players can't play in a different system or they're not suited to it. It has little to do with the issues we have. Isak ran in between two defenders that were 2 yards apart to score the first goal. Misplaced passing and general trotting around had been a problem for years.
 
RDCR07 said:
Yep. People are hell bent on comparing what he did at Sporting versus here and completely ignore he actually had a functioning side there. Thats why I said when he took over, I would gladly take their starting XI along with Amorim and give them our entire first XI.
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Sporting wouldn’t want one of our players, so certainly not XI of them!
 
PlasticRed said:
There are alot of deluded fans on this forum with their head in the sand. This is worse than ETH atm. We are in relegation form, losing 5 or last 6. Not scored in 270m of football. We havnt scored a single goal when Amorim has played Mazraoui and Dalot as wing backs (I think I heard on tv).

We dont look like scoring ever, and cant keep a clean sheet.
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Exactly, the squad isn’t perfect but our starting 11 (with Ugarte and Bruno back) is surely better than Nottingham Forest’s squad and they are 2nd in the league! Even Bournemouth are 7th !!

How is it that their managers can come in and get a tune out of the squad without needing a whole new team to perfectly fit a system?

At some point Amorim will need to take responsibility along with the players.
 
This season was incredible hard when we lacked goal scorers and ended up with Zirkzee. His obviously not a striker and the premier league is killing him.

On top of that we just can’t cope with set pieces and it must be some kind of record on how many we have conceded.

I believe we need to ride out this storm. We need to shift players and invest in players. Hopefully we can begin some work this coming month.

I don’t blame Amorim for this mess. I am mad about the results, but it’s not an option to change manager after manager. Total renewal is the way to go and it will be painful.
 
With his smiling assassin character, his rigid tactics not suiting the players, the poor results, and the general malaise at the club, it is easy to assume that he's lost the dressing room because INEOS and him are changing too much too soon without the desired short term results.

I think the January window is going to be crucial.
 
redNATION said:
Exactly, the squad isn’t perfect but our starting 11 (with Ugarte and Bruno back) is surely better than Nottingham Forest’s squad and they are 2nd in the league! Even Bournemouth are 7th !!

How is it that their managers can come in and get a tune out of the squad without needing a whole new team to perfectly fit a system?

At some point Amorim will need to take responsibility along with the players.
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You’re judging a manager who has been at a place for 45 days versus Nuno who has been at Forest for more than 12 months and Iraiola who has been at Bournemouth for 18 months? And not to mention preseasons to go along with that time. Does that make sense?
 
I'd hazard a guess that Ashworth warned Ratcliffe about bringing in a manager who plays a system you don't have the players for and it wasn't well received. If continuity is the purpose of a DoF then this seems like a good example of failure of continuity.
 
I think the posters looking for Amorim to scrap his entire footballing philosophy are correct. He should revert back to a system he's never used in order to make a collection of shit players, none of whom he had any hand, act or part in bringing to the club, more comfortable. That way he might be able to secure a top 10 finish and it will allow the shit players to better disguise how shit they are so it will be easier for them to steal a living for the club for another 2 or 3 years at least.

Oh how I long for the Halcyon Days of Erik Ten Hag's impenetrable back 4 that was able to eke out such magnificent results as Liverpool (0-7, 0-3), Crystal Palace (0-4), Brentford (0-4), Bournemouth (0-3) (last season!), Spurs (0-3), City (3-6), Sevilla (0-3) and probably several others that I've scorched from my memory.
 
RDCR07 said:
You’re judging a manager who has been at a place for 45 days versus Nuno who has been at Forest for more than 12 months and Iraiola who has been at Bournemouth for 18 months? And not to mention preseasons to go along with that time. Does that make sense?
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And I believe Iraola only won 1 of his first 10 games in charge of Bournemouth.
 
Castia said:
His style when performed properly is fast and exciting, the problem is we have no technicality what so ever it’s a team built on a counter attacking transition

This mix of mediocre players, some out of position is going to struggle

We need to do everything we can to get him a couple of players in January it could make a huge difference
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Got serious doubts we sign anyone despite him being in dire need of signings to get results
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
I think the posters looking for Amorim to scrap his entire footballing philosophy are correct. He should revert back to a system he's never used in order to make a collection of shit players, none of whom he had any hand, act or part in bringing to the club, more comfortable. That way he might be able to secure a top 10 finish and it will allow the shit players to better disguise how shit they are so it will be easier for them to steal a living for the club for another 2 or 3 years at least.

Oh how I long for the Halcyon Days of Erik Ten Hag's impenetrable back 4 that was able to eke out such magnificent results as Liverpool (0-7, 0-3), Crystal Palace (0-4), Brentford (0-4), Bournemouth (0-3) (last season!), Spurs (0-3), City (3-6), Sevilla (0-3) and probably several others that I've scorched from my memory.
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And Amorim has continued the downfall. Many posters are only asking him to have a plan B and not be married to a single system, that doesnt seem to be working with this set of players, not about overhaul of his entire system.
 
Why are we hiring managers whose system requires a complete overhaul of players? We made this same mistake with LVG to Jose.

Now if Amorim doesn't work out and the squad has been overhauled to suit his style we will again be in a pickle. Amorim system is so unique that we won't be able to find a similar manager and will require another overhaul. INEOS are as stupid as Woodward.

Just pick an overall club philosophy and stick to it for once.
 
redNATION said:
Exactly, the squad isn’t perfect but our starting 11 (with Ugarte and Bruno back) is surely better than Nottingham Forest’s squad and they are 2nd in the league! Even Bournemouth are 7th !!

How is it that their managers can come in and get a tune out of the squad without needing a whole new team to perfectly fit a system?

At some point Amorim will need to take responsibility along with the players.
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You've picked two managers that literally contradict the point you're trying to make. It took 10 games for Iraola to win a game at Bournemouth, despite a full pre-season. Nuno finished 17th despite being in charge for five months.
 
MO_Football92 said:
I'm sorry but how can you out so much emphasis on systems? It's football; these are footballers. Why do people love to overcomplicate this sport?

Pick the system/formation which best suits the best players and win football matches. It's simple.
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I have no idea. It makes no sense to be this rigid to me.
 
The Firestarter said:
If he was pragmatic he would switch to the system these players know, to at least finish at a non embarrassing place in the table, then buy suitable players in the summer (cant do so in January) They lost games in the previous system but never such a nose dive. And what RvN tried is actually better than EtH's version, so there is some compromise.
Let's say current players are really dim and can't ever learn/play his system. Everything Amorim has said points to the fact he'll continue trying to teach them, whatever the results. That's him being dogmatic.
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The problem there is that Ten Hag already got sacked playing that system with these players, despite having made a career out of that style of football. Amorim knows he'll do a worse job of being Ten Hag then Ten Hag did so that path is already marked as 'career suicide'.
 
Well atleast we didn't concede from a set piece this time around!!

God this is dire.
 
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