How long do you think it can be this bad for? Cause I definitely think it's possible to have been as shite as he have been so far and then turn it around but I think it becomes highly unlikely if there's another two months of this.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
He isn’t though. This is a classic case of a player not playing causing massive overrating of what he brings to the team. Before Amorim took over I don’t think anyone bar a few Rashford uberfan mentalists would have seriously argued he was our best option as a 9. He’s been absolutely awful in that position so many times. The narrative from anyone who could be arsed making excuses for him was that it wasn’t his position, he needs to play wide left. He can’t play back to goal. Now - thanks to not playing for four games - he’s suddenly our best option there? Come off it.
No one knows. Amorim doesn’t have an answer for that. It ll work when players stop making stupid mistakes and errors. IMO it’s clear this season will be write off meaning we won’t get a top 6. We take a top half finish as a bonus and focus on next year.
I'm saying that I don't quite understand that this is supposed to be the best way to motivate Rashford. Amorim only has Højlund and Zirkzee as attackers now. Are you telling me that Rashford is worse than the 2 even on current form? Shouldn't we play with the strongest possible lineup?
Last 5 matches.
Arsenal away. (4th in league, 2nd if they win game in hand.)
Forest home. (3rd in league.)
City away. (It's still City)
Bournemouth home. (6th, just behind Newcastle on goal differential)
Wolves away. (17th.)
OK, this last match sucked, but the previous 4 matches were a tough run of fixtures. Great, Newcastle and Liverpool up next. Brutal part of the schedule facing 6 of the top 7 teams. It doesn't get easier for United until the Southampton, Brighton, Fulham, Palace run of fixtures starting the 16th. Those 4 matches are the important matches and where United need to get 7/8/9 points.
Sure, it would be nice to fluke a result just for the sake of getting 3 points, but how does anyone manage this team when no one can put it in the back of the net? Where are the goals coming from? This is the worst set of strikers in my lifetime. Not good enough, and the 1 guy who has the most talent, prefers to not work his behind off and get back into the team, and instead wants out. #quitter.
You can't keep buying mediocre players and not have it eventually blow up in your face, and this is what happens when United spend the crazy amount that they have over the past 3 years and they end up with Onana, Antony, Casemiro, Martinez, Hojlund and Mount. How much did they spend on those 6? A ton.
All we can hope for is a.) some sales in January and at least 1 decent starter to come in. In a perfect world, they can actually bring in someone who can start banging in goals, but that isn't likely to happen until the summer and b.) to start scoring hopefully by the 16th when they have an easier fixture list.
SAF couldn't win with this group of players. United has always had that alpha striker, but they haven't had one since Zlatan left. They desperately need that alpha to start scoring goals, just to give the team a confidence boost. It's tough going into games knowing that if you concede once, the odds of scoring twice are pretty slim.
Arsenal away. (4th in league, 2nd if they win game in hand.)
Forest home. (3rd in league.)
City away. (It's still City)
Bournemouth home. (6th, just behind Newcastle on goal differential)
Wolves away. (17th.)
OK, this last match sucked, but the previous 4 matches were a tough run of fixtures. Great, Newcastle and Liverpool up next. Brutal part of the schedule facing 6 of the top 7 teams. It doesn't get easier for United until the Southampton, Brighton, Fulham, Palace run of fixtures starting the 16th. Those 4 matches are the important matches and where United need to get 7/8/9 points.
Sure, it would be nice to fluke a result just for the sake of getting 3 points, but how does anyone manage this team when no one can put it in the back of the net? Where are the goals coming from? This is the worst set of strikers in my lifetime. Not good enough, and the 1 guy who has the most talent, prefers to not work his behind off and get back into the team, and instead wants out. #quitter.
You can't keep buying mediocre players and not have it eventually blow up in your face, and this is what happens when United spend the crazy amount that they have over the past 3 years and they end up with Onana, Antony, Casemiro, Martinez, Hojlund and Mount. How much did they spend on those 6? A ton.
All we can hope for is a.) some sales in January and at least 1 decent starter to come in. In a perfect world, they can actually bring in someone who can start banging in goals, but that isn't likely to happen until the summer and b.) to start scoring hopefully by the 16th when they have an easier fixture list.
SAF couldn't win with this group of players. United has always had that alpha striker, but they haven't had one since Zlatan left. They desperately need that alpha to start scoring goals, just to give the team a confidence boost. It's tough going into games knowing that if you concede once, the odds of scoring twice are pretty slim.
I don’t think he was saying to roll out the red carpet. He’s just saying surely Rashford could not look any worse than Hojlund and Zirzkee have in big parts of this season. Another option is always nice especially when people like Garnacho are also off form.
He’s also friends with everyone in the dressing room. Exiling someone completely can’t help morale when it’s already in the pits.
I really dont think one wing back is going to make the difference people think it will. It will help bring balance. But there is too much wrong with this team. It needs 4-5 new players with legs, dribbling, creativity and goal scoring ability. I worry we wont get anywhere near what we need in January and it will be a very long season.
Well dropping him once was supposed to motivate him. He isn’t trying to motivate him now especially once he gave that stupid interview. You can clearly see the weak mentality of Rashford.
He is done at the club and rightfully so. I ll back Amorim any day of the week before I back Rashford.
Btw he played as a striker to begin this season when Holjund was injured. He sulked and didn’t perform well at all cause he wasn’t being played in his favorite position.
i really don’t know how you fix the broken mess that is Manchester United other than buying a new team and coaching them well. Because this lot (most of them) are done - they are average and have been broken by the experience and pressure of being at a failing giant.
He needs to do what ETH did and buy a new team but has to sign the right players and tbh it needs to happen faster as slow change leads to the malaise transmitting to newcomers too.
He needs to do what ETH did and buy a new team but has to sign the right players and tbh it needs to happen faster as slow change leads to the malaise transmitting to newcomers too.
I hope we are ruthless in the summer. We need flog off 75% of these players somehow and get in new blood.
A 100% this, people are calling for his head when we have 300m in strikers that couldn’t score an open goal.
We can’t afford to buy a whole new squad every time the next manager gets sacked. Most of the squad have been bought in the last 3-4 years it’s going to cost a fortune to replace them all.
I’m all for implementing an ongoing style of play and I assume the next manager will be one who favours 343 but surely we need to do implement this style slowly. Just blindly sticking to a system that suits absolutely zero players results in conceding 8 goals against Bournemouth, Wolves & Forest.
....................Onana
Maz...De Ligt....Martinez....Dalot
.........Ugarte.....Casemiro
Diallo......Fernandes......Rashford
................Hojlund
I would stick with this formula until we get better players. Maybe Garnacho could swap with Rashford.
This is a straightforward round pegs in round holes formation and our strongest line up.
Maz...De Ligt....Martinez....Dalot
.........Ugarte.....Casemiro
Diallo......Fernandes......Rashford
................Hojlund
I would stick with this formula until we get better players. Maybe Garnacho could swap with Rashford.
This is a straightforward round pegs in round holes formation and our strongest line up.
Absolutely. One or changes will have little impact. If we had the money I’d go the Chelsea way and sign a lot of players to facilitate quick change.
Because it worked so well for Ten Hag this season? When are people going to understand it’s not about formation.
If Pool gave up on Klopp after a few seasons of shit, they would still be cycling through managers. Same goes for Arsenal and Arteta. Two seasons isn’t enough time for a manager to make a team theirs. If anything, we’ve been to quick to axe managers.
The only want to speed up a rebuild of this size is to stumble upon a World Class player that transforms the squad similar to Palmer at Chelsea. The other way is if Shiek Jassim would’ve taken us over. He would have the cash to flush the shit from the squad and spend up to rebuild fast. And even then he would be up against FFP.
Not worse, but equally as shite, with even less work rate.
We are terrible at selling players and only do so when they are beyond any use so I’m not sure we can expect that. Rangick didnt excel here but he was right - revolution not evolution is needed. The team is clearly mentally and emotionally shattered. Gradual change will only land us up in the same place soon enough - we need make big changes just as we have done at executive level.
We would still get beat
And keeps a toxic environment
I think we should take a hit to sell them. That has previously stopped us from selling but we need a humongous change. We might need to take lesser fees as long as it means we get to take the player off our books. The only way to do that is like you said wholesale changes of players.
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No, we haven’t.
ETH was sacked later than he should have been. Same for Ole, LVG and Mourinho. LVG should have been shown the door after his first season, when Klopp left Dortmund. Our board was just giddy with the fourth place LVG achieved rather thinking about the long term.
Mourinho lost me after the Sevilla game. Ole should never have been signed as manager until the season had ended because things were starting to falter then and the new manager bounce was wearing off.
We have given all our managers longer than most other clubs would have done so.
Amorim could do with an international break or two. Games coming thick and fast and he only has a couple of training sessions at most between games to try and improve something. Not an easy job.
It won’t help cause a majority of the squad will be gone. He will only work with stragglers and youngsters.
Exactly.
That said, I still have faith in Amorim. Still too early.
If we're showing relegation form after a few games to start next season, then yeah he's got to go.
It's just fecking disastrous.
I get that he wants to impose his style of play, but he first of all needs to ensure we stay in this league, and he should be working on morale rather than tactics.
You look at body language and the players look lost and depressed. Yes, that's partly on them, but it's also his responsibility to understand where we currently are as a club and win games. Coming in and changing tactics mid-season is just suicidal.
I get that he wants to impose his style of play, but he first of all needs to ensure we stay in this league, and he should be working on morale rather than tactics.
You look at body language and the players look lost and depressed. Yes, that's partly on them, but it's also his responsibility to understand where we currently are as a club and win games. Coming in and changing tactics mid-season is just suicidal.
Whether it worked or it didnt is irrelevant. Its the best we have at this moment in time. Carrying on the 343 is going to be a catastrophe. Our league position will determine the calibre of player we can attract. The rate we are going, any decent player is going to be put off. We cant just decide to play 343 win or lose.
What do you mean it’s the best we have at the moment. So we are supposed to play 4231 whether it worked or not but it’s wrong to play the 343? We were 13th when Ten Hag got fired. What exactly made you think that formation of 4231 with these players was working? Why weren’t we better if we played a formation(4231), that as you say, suited these players better?
I dont think training or international breaks are going to help. We just dont have the players to pull off 343. Its a shit squad.
What we need is INEOS signing half a dozen players to help. And another half a dozen in the summer. I dont care about PSR. If we have to sit out of Europe for one year so what. Id rather spend some money than watch this shite every week.
There's no point waiting until next season.
He should stick to his principles and start the transition now.
Next season with more time and signings brought in, benefits will be reaped.
Where in Cape Town?
Some people are never happy and some people don't realise how bad some of these players are. Just looking to get the I told you so's in early.
My father was very panicked and critical after the game today, and yes although it is a bad result, I saw a structure and way of playing that remained intact despite first going a man and then a goal down. Amorim knows what he has at his disposal and warned us early on what was coming, this is the storm. It takes time, patience and skill to essentially put the squad through a partially unfolding preseason in the middle of the Xmas period, particularly when the club in question is one of the biggest in the world.
Every defeat is a calamity, I know, but it was a calamity of a different sort when we beat Wolves on the opening day of the PL season a couple ago when they hammered us all game, that was embarrassing! Now, Ruben is getting at least segments of his philosophy into the players heads, but yeah it's taking time, when there is none. Added to that he's taken the bold stance early on that the biggest earner is the biggest problem, culture change takes time and you need everyone pulling together giving their all. Bruno seems off, as did Kobi today and Garnacho is slowly coming back into the fold, but at least we can see progress in every game. I actually thought we played better when he made those changes, even if Erikson can't press.
Selling Rash (hopefully) will free up funds, and you never know, look at Fulham and Everton today, football is a funny old game as they say, and we might surprise a few people over the next few games. The fanbase need to give everything to try and make this work, I don't want to just hang on and hope a counter attack nicks a draw or a win, I want us to take the initiative even if we risk losing like we did today. It will come but this was always going to be the toughest part, it's now Ruben needs us the most!
Every defeat is a calamity, I know, but it was a calamity of a different sort when we beat Wolves on the opening day of the PL season a couple ago when they hammered us all game, that was embarrassing! Now, Ruben is getting at least segments of his philosophy into the players heads, but yeah it's taking time, when there is none. Added to that he's taken the bold stance early on that the biggest earner is the biggest problem, culture change takes time and you need everyone pulling together giving their all. Bruno seems off, as did Kobi today and Garnacho is slowly coming back into the fold, but at least we can see progress in every game. I actually thought we played better when he made those changes, even if Erikson can't press.
Selling Rash (hopefully) will free up funds, and you never know, look at Fulham and Everton today, football is a funny old game as they say, and we might surprise a few people over the next few games. The fanbase need to give everything to try and make this work, I don't want to just hang on and hope a counter attack nicks a draw or a win, I want us to take the initiative even if we risk losing like we did today. It will come but this was always going to be the toughest part, it's now Ruben needs us the most!
Rashford himself came out and said he’s ready to leave….but sure, let’s motivate those underperforming players and bend over backwards to player power once again.
As bad as the defence is in terms of individual errors, the main reason we are losing is because the attack is useless and there is very little to worry the opposition's defence. The tempo we saw today was again pedestrian and even with 11 men on the pitch, there was just one decent shot from Dalot and a weak header.
Under Ruud and under a more simplistic set up, we looked a lot more like scoring goals because we were moving the ball faster and there was an urgency to break lines.
He's got to instill confidence and play a team that will actually look like scoring. Not being able to create any pressure is contributing to our defensive horror shows.
Ruud had an easy run of fixtures.
And we've played well under Amorim in general besides Ipswich and today(and today was affected by Bruno having a brain-fart).
It's been 1 month. Let's see how we look in 3-4 months.
The way to do it is to identify what players are good enough for your manager and then literally put the rest up for sale and sell them in no particular order of priority. Anyone on the hitlist an offer comes in for is sold.
At the same time what remains is augmented by carefully scouted players - I want to see no more signings of players managed previously by our managers or inordinate amounts of money thrown at over the hill relics from Real Madrid.
In an ideal word most of our players should be available for transfer in the summer and we should aim at a basic of getting a good theoretical starting 11 if everyone is available and whatever doesn't sell can make up the squad and play in the league cup etc. To be honest we wont be in Europe next year so can deal with a much smaller squad on that basis
People want us to revert to type so we win a few matches, all is "well" until it all drops off again and Amorim is sacked in a season or two, next manager comes in etc.
There are those that say the entire club needs redoing from top to bottom, the problem is the same people who think the patience to see it through. Even if we are trash this season and barely make top half of the table, it NEEDS to to happen, otherwise there will never be any kind of reset, there will never be any kind of grand sweeping changes people are asking for.
You want Ralf Rangnicks open heart surgery? You have to come to terms with the fact shit like this is going to happen.
Anybody suggesting Amorim needs to change back to the old system or whatever is dumb at this point, you just keep wanting us to tread water constantly as we have for years and years and years.
There are those that say the entire club needs redoing from top to bottom, the problem is the same people who think the patience to see it through. Even if we are trash this season and barely make top half of the table, it NEEDS to to happen, otherwise there will never be any kind of reset, there will never be any kind of grand sweeping changes people are asking for.
You want Ralf Rangnicks open heart surgery? You have to come to terms with the fact shit like this is going to happen.
Anybody suggesting Amorim needs to change back to the old system or whatever is dumb at this point, you just keep wanting us to tread water constantly as we have for years and years and years.
Yeah, I wrote about that in another thread. With his 3-4-3, Amorim obviously represents a big tactical switch from Ten Hag. Making that work requires time to drill the team in their new positions and routines - but United have had little of that since Amorim's appointment, and so the play and results can be expected to remain messy for a while still. You'd have to hope United's management took that into account and won't start questioning him if results don't pick up soon - cause that would be incredibly short-sighted.
Basically, as long as United don't get into real relegation danger and as long as underlying metrics keep trending up overall, management should be ready to accept whatever happens, so that Amorim can be given players that suit him better and can use the spring and summer to really install his football vision - so that he can subsequently really be judged next season. If United's management aren't prepared to do that, then they shouldn't have hired Amorim mid-season, but should have either picked someone else or persisted with Van Nistelrooij or some other interim for the time being.
Note that I'm not saying this is right or that fans should like it. I'm just saying that, if United's management isn't ready to stand with Amorim for the next half year come what come, then they shouldn't have hired him mid-season.
Yep.
Also, this idea that the English league is this special thing that is completely different to other leagues seems apocryphal to me borne of EPL exceptionalism. I don’t buy it. It’s not a different sport. Our players are just distinctly shit.