Too much common sense,you won't last long on here posting like that
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
No it's the turd mentioned in one of the Rashford threads!
ETH's system, or anything like it, would never have worked in the longterm. The huge gaps he was leaving, the deep defensive line, the pressing which was all about numbers instead of positioning, the constant all-or-nothing passes, the focus on quick transitions etc. There was no aspect of it that was worth keeping or that could have been slightly tweaked to bring us success. He was basically doing the exact opposite of what is proving to be successful everywhere else over the last decade. It's why it was so stupid to keep him this season as it was nothing but a waste of time (and money).
Sure, some managers may have been a bit less of a change, but anybody who we bought in that implemented something that could be successful would still have made huge changes. What ETH had done was so unbelievably bad that 'evolution rather than revolution' was never going to be an option.
This is the new start. From this point on we need to ensure there is a smooth transition between managers. That doesn't mean they need to be exactly the same or play the exact same formation, or anything like that. But the basics need to be similar. But the starting point is Amorim, not from ETH.
People talk like playing this formation locks us into similar formations in the future, but really the only positions that are somewhat unique are the wide positions. And even then, most players that are perfect for the wingback roles will normally be fine as either a normal fullback or winger in a different formation (albeit some may not be as good). And historically one of the #10's that Amorim plays is more of an inverted winger.
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We just lost 3 nil to bournemouth, 4-3 to Spurs. We lost to Ipswich and we lost to Arsenal. There have been some improvements, but we still arnt getting results or any sort of consistency. Im not saying Amorim is a bad manager, but at this stage hes doing no better than Ten Hag.
Drew with Ipswich. Maybe you meant lost to Forest but come on at least get the results right.
As for whether he’s better than Ten Hag or not it’s comparing apples to oranges. Ten Hag had two and half years, three preseasons and something like 15 new players who he had at least some say in picking.
This is versus Amorim whose had around 7-games taking over a team at low ebb and with a very different style of play. We are having more possession, generally winning the xG battle and just flubbing our lines either with missing chances or some poor set piece defending.
Im not getting drawn into a debate about who is better. My point was simply united have had lots of good managers. Its bever been the problem.
Its behind the scenes where the issues were. Senior Management, Scouting, Data Analysis, DOF or lack of and so on.
Its easy to say that Ten Hag wanted a load of dutch based players and we overpaid. But what alternatives was he presented with? I assume not many.
That is one thing that needs to change. The club needs to sort its recruitment out and have a team specialising in it.
If that’s the case then we’d never lose against inferior team.
Yeah but both things can be true at the same time. I don’t think Ten Hag got the maximum out of our squad not is Amorim currently.
I’m actually somewhat encouraged by the changes in senior management and scouting etc. De Ligt, Yoro, Ugarte & Maraoui are all positive signings so far. Zirkzee has only shown a few flashes and might not work out but at least he wasn’t a massive overspend like other signings previously.
Our youth system is also on the up again. Despite criticism the Murtough/Arnold regime really did some good work rebuilding the academy structures.
Have we though? Moyes, who clearly wasn't good enough. LVG and Mourinho who were clearly past their best. Ole who was better than many give credit for but has never done anything to indicate he was good enough for us. And ETH who had good success in a weak league managing a club who had a huge financial advantage over everyone else, and one great CL campaign (and even in that semi they threw it away in a way quite similar to the absolute chaos that we regularly saw with us). He did a good job and there was reason to be excited about him, but it's still a huge step up to us.
Even if we had everything else perfect, there is no reason to be confident that any of them would have truly been a success. More successful than they ended up being (a couple more cups, finishing more regularly in the top four), sure. But in terms of being able to compete with Pep and Klopp in the league or getting deep into the CL? Not really. In fact I'm very confident that none of them would have.
The managers certainly weren't the only problem, but they definitely were part of it. Which isn't surprising since it was the senior management, under advisement of the scouting and data analysis teams, that were choosing those managers. If you think those aspects of the club were poor in all the other decisions they were making it's hardly surprising they were also poor in choosing the managers.
In saying that, I don't think there was anything wrong with choosing to go for ETH as he was the right type of profile, but he was a risk. A risk that other clubs often make and sometimes get right and sometimes get wrong, but they recognise when they've got it wrong and replace him much faster than we did. We're taking a similar risk again with Amorim. The important thing is giving him enough time to show what he can do (which some people seem to not be willing to give), but not so much time that he can do a lot of damage when he's obviously not going to work (which is what the club, backed by a lot of supporters, gave ETH). There's a mid-ground that the club needs to walk, and the fans should be doing the same.
All them managers we’ve had are better than Bournemouth’s and forest manager and one of them is 4th while the others 5th currently. Our main problem is having rotting players under the managers that upset the dressing room. We’ve had Lingard, Pogba, Rashford, an over paid Sanchez, Ronaldo. Each one of these players have big egos and had a massive effect on the rest of the squad. Players that think they’re too good for the club and bigger cause problems. Alls it takes is 1 bad egg in a dressing room and it causes a bad atmosphere which makes players perform badly.
As it should be, he isn't very smart. Neither are you.
That’s more to do with our strikers missing easy chances and defence making individual mistakes. Considering he’s just walked in, he’s definitely doing better than ETH. Probably not on corners though.
Did not lose to Ipswich.
It was Rashford who scored the first goal for Amorim.
And he also scored 2 against Everton in the 4-0 win.
Mourinho caused the toxicity in the dressing room at the time far more than any of the players. Just like he has done at literally every single club that he's been at for longer than two seasons in his entire career, and in the second half of his career it's been happening sooner. It amazes me that people still try to say he was right and it was all the players fault.
Blaming the players for ETH is also ridiculous when it was clear that the entire dressing room bar Rashford (and maybe Casemiro for a month or two at the end of last season) were still trying their absolute best. In fact I'd go so far as to say that it was impressive that the dressing room didn't turn on him considering how incredibly badly he did and the sheer incompetence of his tactics. It was the exact opposite of 'one player having a massive effect on the rest of the squad'. Likewise, we never had attitude problems under LVG either.
Ole (and Rangnick in the same season) is the only one that has some cause to say it was the players' bad attitudes. Well, Moyes actually does as well, which shows how big an impact a bad manager can have on even the incredible dressing room we had at the time.
Oh, and with your comment on the managers of Bournemouth and Forest, I'd say there's a fair chance that Iraola will go on to be better than any of those previous managers we've had (at the time they were here of course, not at LVG's and Mourinho's peaks). Not so much Santo who is probably just on a freak run that clubs occasionally have.
This is all well and good, but ETH didn't build anything.
You can't build on anything he did. He took us backwards.
The eye test shows an improvement from Ten Hag.
We're no longer a chaotic mess of wild dervishes aimlessly running about giving up 20 shots per game.
Ten Hag's greatest asset was luck. My god that man was the luckiest manager we've ever had, we fluked so many results it was ridiculous. We should've finished around 14th last season.
Now we've lost the luck. Opponents are scoring from every other chance instead of missing everything like last season. But our overall performances are more encouraging, which is all I care about this season
I think it's not unfair to say people who can't see an improvement from Ten Hag might actually be totally clueless. It's barely been any time too, he's not spent a penny, or had any real time with the players to implement his ideas. All things people said the former manager deserved and needed, and we were still dog shit after.
We've got signs of a clearly defined style now, which is something we've been crying out for, for years. We're better at pressing already as well. It will click up front eventually and we'll be scoring goals for fun by the end of the season, I'm sure of it. And of course we need to cut out the silly errors, which will come as out confidence grows.
They are not training matches, they are just regular matches in which a coach is trying to implement a new system that he hopes will benefit the team in the long term. It's going to be at least 12-18 months before things take proper shape.
What you're advocating is reverting back to a system that we already know has a relatively low ceiling, and will not be conducive to long term success, purely for short term benefit of slightly better (but not really good enough) results.
You better not be saying that.
It depends on the extent of the rebuild. Big lists of players that posters think should be replaced are boring to read, so I'll stick this at the bottom of the post, but based on that, we could be down to about 8 senior professionals, and not of those 8 are world class.
We're currently clinging to the idea of Amad, Hojlund, Yoro and Mainoo becoming elite footballers, but there's a long way to go for all four, even Mainoo who is naturally incredibly gifted.
As I mentioned in my original post, I'm not by any stretch saying the likes of Bruno and Martinez are "rubbish", but we're not going to be able to control PL games with those players in the squad. They should be sold whilst they have value.
What the club should do, and should have done a long time ago, is burn it all to the ground and start again. Not this three in, five out we see every Summer. A clearout means getting rid of every single player who isnt the right profile or is not good enough.
The strategy would then be to bring in the best young talents from around the globe. I would be looking to bring in players in the £0-£30m bracket and promote players from the Academy to fill the gaps.
Obviously this would lead us very, very light on experience and quality, but if we'd done this a decade ago, or five years ago, we'd be challenging properly now. Two or three seasons pain for long term gain.
Physical Limitations
- Shaw
- Mount
- Casemiro
- Eriksen
Not Good Enough
- Martinez
- Malacia
- Bayindir
- Dalot
- Rashford
- Anthony
- Maguire
- Bruno
- Lindelof
- Evans
- Zirkzee*
- Garnacho**
*if doesn't improve before end of season
**could yet develop into excellent player but attitude/lack of obvious position in this system
Keep
- Onana
- De Ligt
- Yoro
- Mazraoui
- Ugarte
- Mainoo
- Amad
- Hojlund
There's also the likes of Amass, Collyer, Gore, Bianchieri, Obi Martin, Kone, Scanlon, Moorhouse etc...(and many more) who could fill out the squad when needed. I appreciate some of those are never going to be good enough for United, but they can fill gaps for a season or two (and that would also increase their value to potential buyers)
It gets more people coming to his channel being controversial and also he’s a Rashford fanboy.
And yes I’m sure that I’ve changed my mind over the years but I don’t have a social media channel or give a poop about getting followers
Don't think you can win really as Howson or any of those.
Support a manager(as he did with ETH) and they've got an agenda. Criticise a manager for one game and it's all for clicks.
It could just be the guys opinion. Starting Malacia and Zirkzee. Taking off Ugarte. These aren't bullet proof decisions.
Fair enough, each to their own. I’ll agree to disagree
I think we have several players who will not be able to adapt to the new system and will need to be shipped out / phased out from the team very soon, but that's probably like 5-6 players, and not all of them will even need to be replaced instantly. Then it will be a gradual process of adapting the team over the course of several windows, but we should not be hopeless as a team while that is happening. Pretty much what occurred at Liverpool after Klopp took over, their squad was very poor and they did not really go and overhaul it instantly. Instead they adapted it to Klopp's requirements by trimming unsuitable players, and then kept on adding new quality signings every window to land where they eventually became competitive at the very top of the table.
It's probably realistic to think that no more than 8-10 of current players will be part of the squad in 2-3 years time when we are finally really good, but many more will serve a role in the meantime while we are gradually transitioning to that place.
This guy obviously needs time. And if he wants to keep the same system fair enough. But you can't play 2 defenders (especially bad ones) as wing backs. Malacia and Dalot or whoever else it has been are basically our width and responsible for creating chances.
People were getting giddy thinking the likes of Garnacho and Amad could be our wing backs but I always feared he'd use defenders. For a team already struggling to score, it'll make things even worse.
Added to the fact that Rashford is gone (he's handled this well) and Garnacho has been phased out (he should be starting more) there is so little pace up front. Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee, I said in the match day thread before Bournemouth, we'll struggle to score. I do acknowledge we missed some chances but I do fear we'll be in for some very defensive/slow matches for the rest of the season.
People were getting giddy thinking the likes of Garnacho and Amad could be our wing backs but I always feared he'd use defenders. For a team already struggling to score, it'll make things even worse.
Added to the fact that Rashford is gone (he's handled this well) and Garnacho has been phased out (he should be starting more) there is so little pace up front. Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee, I said in the match day thread before Bournemouth, we'll struggle to score. I do acknowledge we missed some chances but I do fear we'll be in for some very defensive/slow matches for the rest of the season.
This is exactly it, we all knew there were problems with the squad but so many of us wanted Ten Hag out because the fundamentals were shite. We were too exposed and didn't look like we had a plan.
Amorim has come in and straight away shown an identifiable style of play. We just need to build on it and get the right players in so we improve as a team.
The negativity is too extreme but predictably there's always a cohort of posters who backed a previous manager willing to give the new one a hard time.
I think it's partly that. Trying to be vindicated in their support for ten Hag, and nothing is going to vindicate it more than the new hot coach struggling to same (or hopefully worse) extent.
It's happened with every coach we bring in sadly. Rangnick was useful in that regard as it allowed everyone to get it out their system prior to Ten Hag coming in.
It's obvious to see as well because these people are holding Amorim to the same standard Ten Hag was judged this season, you'd only do that to prove a point. New coaches have to overcome the mess their predecessor left, they can't be judged as if it's their team straight away.
The performances are better, even if the results are not. Results are of secondary importance this season, though - the primary focus is instilling the new system and planning for next season (and next summer).
With all the Rashford drama there hasn't been much media blathering about Amorim's formation, but I expect it's coming at some point.
It seems a long time ago now but Van Gaal stuck with 3 at the back way longer than I remember, with articles about it as late as early 2015
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...nited-lack-tempo-and-risk-taking-9990087.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...et-winning-title-Manchester-United-3-5-2.html
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/22/manchester-united-louis-van-gaal-twitchy-bum
here's a vid of a Carragher & Neville debating it... not entirely clear when this is from but judging from the background maybe after the Burnley game early in his first season?
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/9428891/can-van-gaals-tactics-work
What I can't really remember is when he dropped it? Going off the premier league site it looks like maybe it was the Leicester game in January.
It seems a long time ago now but Van Gaal stuck with 3 at the back way longer than I remember, with articles about it as late as early 2015
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...nited-lack-tempo-and-risk-taking-9990087.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...et-winning-title-Manchester-United-3-5-2.html
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/22/manchester-united-louis-van-gaal-twitchy-bum
here's a vid of a Carragher & Neville debating it... not entirely clear when this is from but judging from the background maybe after the Burnley game early in his first season?
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/9428891/can-van-gaals-tactics-work
What I can't really remember is when he dropped it? Going off the premier league site it looks like maybe it was the Leicester game in January.
I think that approach results in a squad far too young.
Like all United fans I enjoy young players coming through be it academy or bought in.
But after 10 years of rubbish this club needs some success now. Another five years of this whilst we wait for young players to be hopefully good enough isn't practical.
The next two windows needs six players in that 23 to 28 age bracket. Guys who've confirmed they're ready. Who can hit the ground running. No more teenagers or 30 + players for a while.
They might not all be top quality due to budget restraints but this has to happen.
No better than EtH who had been here shy of two and half seasons and been involved with 15 or so signings to fit his style - of which no one had a clue what it was.
The fact Amorim has walked in and is able to mid season do no worse results wise, using players in unfamiliar positions for his system whilst at least applying a clear identity, is not a positive for EtH.
Amorim warned us it will take time but will be worth it to not be in this position next season, in the process there would be a storm and the need for rotation. It's playing out nothing less that what he said because it needs to. So why some fans are complaining I have no idea.
These are two totally different scenarios. Amorim vs LvG.
LvG had success with that formation in the world cup, although he pretty much fell upon it as a last resort. I don't believe its a system associated with him before this, I recall he was more of a 433 guy.
He then came to Utd and I would assume tried to replicate what he had done in the world cup with us - which didn't work. It was leaky as hell. I think you are right, it was that game.
I would put the failed experiment of LvG and the 3-5-2 more down to LvG than the formation. It was unfamiliar to him and something he fell upon. He perhaps didn't fully understand the formation himself and international football isn't the same either. Remember, LvG played a very slow game.
The 3421 Amorim plays is his system and something he isn't prepared to move from. It's a totally different scenario. If it becomes and issue then it was daft to sign him.
And also lets not forget, Conte won the prem with 3 at the back.
Not really. Yes, he needs time. But he also need results to buy him more time. There must be a certain minimum standard. At the very least, I'm hoping we can at least finish higher than 8th this season?
Next season after signing his own players, we should be looking at Top 4.
Year after next, we then hopefully challenge for the title?
Yeah that's a good point about it not being his system... interesting that he stuck to it so doggedly for so long.
And just to be clear I'm not suggesting that Amorim's system is wrong or that he needs to be more pragmatic, just thought it was an interesting point of comparison.
Yeah, while I'm tempted to say I don't really mind where we finish once we can see the progress, it's naive to think they're not related I guess. If we finish 16th, it's unlikely we'll be in here congratulating each other on the amount of progress we're making.