No worries, it's also more about the psychology than the morality. And is specifically offspring-parent rather that just incest.
Religion, what's the point?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Apology accepted.
Ok, I'm just trying to get a handle on how it works with apostasy because I still don't think anybody's sure.
So, if you leave and don't offer damage or oppression to the state you won't be punished in this lifetime. That's a universal rule dictated by the Quran. When I asked what happens if you leave the faith and criticise it you said it depends what country your from. That seems a little muddled to me.
Here's a specific example as I think it would help the understanding:
A woman publically says "I'm leaving the Islamic faith as I don't believe Allah exists and I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet. I strongly disagree with some of it's teachings and believe the only way to make progress is for all Islamic states to become secular, a cause I will dedicate my time and energies to."
What would the Quran say about this person, what would be its judgement?
I would think in certain Islamic countries that would be regarded as blasphemy.
I'm more interested in what the univeral law is than a countries particularly take on it as we know that can vary.
So what would be the Quran's judgement in this case?
[e="Sultan, post: 13602290, member: 11370"]That's been answered in the link provided on blasphemy in one of my previous posts.[/quote]
Could you put it into layman's terms for me and a few others, it would help our understanding of Islam and apostasy.
What would the Qurans judgement on that woman be. Would she be punished in this lifetime and if yes, how so?
Could you put it into layman's terms for me and a few others, it would help our understanding of Islam and apostasy.
What would the Qurans judgement on that woman be. Would she be punished in this lifetime and if yes, how so?
I'd say the link is pretty clear and answers your question very comprehensively.
http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.co.uk/
http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.co.uk/
There's a large amount of info in that link with various different views. It's a pretty specific example i've given, I'm not sure it does get answered. You only need to write one sentence to explain how the Quran would judge that woman. I won't ask you again but to clear up any misunderstanding on apostasy, would that woman be punished in this lifetime going by the rules of the Quran and if yes, how?
If you're not willing to, or can't understand something written in simple and easy to understand English, I'm sorry, I can't be of further help.
To be brutally frank, Sultan, you've at times in this thread previously asked for sources to be handed to you on a platter. I think MrMojo was just saying that your source didn't really give the answers he was looking for, not that it was too hard to read.
I just want Sultan to tell me what would happen to the woman in my example. I've tried three times and he won't, he'll only direct me to a link.
He normally has no problem telling us what the Quran says on a particular matter. I wonder why in this instance he refuses to directly answer the question.
The link answers his question perfectly.
To be fair, I'm still waiting for links to those thousand of apostates supposedly killed.
Because you're deliberately being obtuse, and not getting an answer to fit your agenda of Islam being all evil.
Sultan you won't directly answer the question. I'm not saying Islam is all evil, stop trying to distract from the point. I've given you a specific example to try and help us understand apostasy. You won't give me a direct answer, like I said, I won't ask it again, there's no point.
Your refusal to give me just a one sentence answer speaks volumes.
It's clear for all to see I'm afraid.
To be fair to Sultan, he can't speak for all of Islam. There isn't ONE Islam, just as there isn't one Christianity. There are several different sects, with appropriate hadiths (or indeed no hadiths) who all swear blind their way of interpreting a centuries old book as the right one. Sultan can only speak for the particular way he follows it.
This is obviously an inherent problem.
This is obviously an inherent problem.
Yeah but according to Salafis, they are the custodians of Islam and everyone else is wrong.
So do the Westboro Baptist Church.
Though, you know, not about Islam. Though they do think the way Sultan follows it is wrong too. Or indeed anyone.
Though, you know, not about Islam. Though they do think the way Sultan follows it is wrong too. Or indeed anyone.
I think they're literalists. Whereas most other religious folk are spoonbenders.
You really need to come to terms with us having differing values, beliefs and attitudes. Many countries rightly or wrongly obviously want to run their affairs contrary to standards we believe to be correct. There are millions out there who see great benefits and value in saving a religion/faith, and will go out of their way to make edicts and judgements according to their world view.
He does give the impression that he thinks he can, though. And he continuously ignores that although he might not believe that apostates, blasphemers and homosexuals deserve to be killed for their transgressions, so many hundreds of millions do believe it, with some mainstream theology to back it up.
If you're happy to tell us what the Quran says on the more appealing parts of your religion you should really be willing to tell us what it says on defector/death bits. That's all I was asking for rather than some all consuming statement on Islam.
I do genuinely feel sorry for large sections of the religious world. There must be an inner turmoil going on. You base your entire life on this book yet large sections contradict what it means to be a good guy in the modern world.
You can see it with Sultan, he obviously knows what the Quran says about the woman in my example but he just can't bring himself to say it. If he says it out loud he then has to deal with agreeing to it. What then does that say about him. It's an unenviable position to be in.
Its a tough one for Sults to answer as different people tend to interpret religious texts subjectively and based on their own cultural norms. What works in Indonesia doesn't necessarily work in Yemen, Algeria, or Turkmenistan.
You can't just invoke the interpretation clause when the questions get difficult. To be fair to Sultan he isn't using this as the reason for his reluctance to answer. I'm not sure why others are feeling the need to do so.
It's a perfectly legitimate reason why you may not get the answer you're looking for.
They weren't apostates, they were homosexuals, if you were referring to our earlier exchange. I can't find where I read thousands, though, so I suspect I confused "executed" with "killed". Still, hundreds of outright executions is likely, according to this list which only goes to the early 90s: http://www.iranrights.org/english/memorial-search.php?do_search=Search&charges=1778515990&pagenum=0. And then I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if homosexuality is considered vile enough in post-revolution Iran to be the cause of state executions, there are many more who are simply murdered.
That is true, but if he takes that stance he can't then argue against there being some possibility of these things happening in nominally Islamic countries, and of them then being done not merely out of a desire for control but also because that is simply how they interpret the holy creeds.
The link I provided if anyone bothered to read it states exactly the differences of opinions on the matter in the Islamic world. I copy the opening few paragraphs.
While many contemporary Muslim scholars have expressed their views affirming the freedom of faith, the collective voice of Muslims is still feeble and little known. In this write-up we have collated opinions and positions of various Muslim scholars, academics, intellectuals, imams, professionals, community leaders and others on this issue. Even young students are voicing against the double-standard that contradicts the Islamic values and principles.
These voices, representing a broad spectrum of Muslim community/ummah, are tipping the scale of the discourse on this issue in favor of affirming and upholding the pristine Islamic principle about freedom of faith. It also debunks the claim of unanimity (ijma), which was not quite true in the past, and it is even less true in the present.
While many contemporary Muslim scholars have expressed their views affirming the freedom of faith, the collective voice of Muslims is still feeble and little known. In this write-up we have collated opinions and positions of various Muslim scholars, academics, intellectuals, imams, professionals, community leaders and others on this issue. Even young students are voicing against the double-standard that contradicts the Islamic values and principles.
These voices, representing a broad spectrum of Muslim community/ummah, are tipping the scale of the discourse on this issue in favor of affirming and upholding the pristine Islamic principle about freedom of faith. It also debunks the claim of unanimity (ijma), which was not quite true in the past, and it is even less true in the present.
Having a quick scan through the site, this is what the link says:
As presented in excerpts from numerous sources below, and links to works available online, there is no worldly punishment solely for apostasy [i.e., changing of one's faith/religion] mentioned in the Qur'an.
I seem to remember someone on here before mentioning that the quran said something about how Muslims should try to spend the rest of the person's life trying to bring the person back into Islam. Perhaps not the most pleasant of experiences but, in my mind anyway, seems to preclude the killing of someone.
I know there's no worldly punishment for just leaving Islam. The question was what would happen if the person leaves and then publically criticises Islam, promoting secular ideas.
I think it's clear the Quran says that person should be punished with death, followed by an eternity of Allahs wrath. Looking at the text I think it's clear, no problems with interpretation on this one. I might be wrong but in the absence of a clear opinion from elsewhere that would be my conclusion.
Firstly, there are a lot of Muslims who hold secular ideals, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Secondly, I'm a bit confused about the 2nd statement. Have you come to this conclusion through your own reading of the Quran (what the 1st part seems to suggest) or because no-one (ie Sultan) has been able to answer the question to your satisfaction? The second one would be logically falacious for me.
If it is the 1st, what is the quote?
Comparing homosexuality and incest?
And there was me thinking it was 2013!
And there was me thinking it was 2013!
Why has Mojo been banned?
Why indeed.
I did not ban MrMojo.
I'm also not going to reveal the reasons.
I'm also not going to reveal the reasons.
I think they were just wondering whether he was banned for his behavior in this thread.