Religion, what's the point?

jakec said:
Really?

  1. Religious Extremism has killed hundreds of millions of people
  2. Religion is used as a controlling mechanism on the people
  3. It stops society from progressing due to tradition and conservatism
So violence, control, and stagnation. Would be my three main issues with religion. That's not to say some good things haven't come out of religion, but to say that debating whether religion is true or not is very much an appropriate debate.
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Wrong on all counts.

1. Stop exaggerating.
2. So do a lot of other isms, cultures, and governments. Like it or not people do need certain mechanisms of control.
3. Some of the greatest scientific advancements have come about from religious figures, and during religions golden ages.
 
1. Stop exaggerating
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Is it really, when you consider the number of deaths where religion has played either a main or crucial role?

2. So do a lot of other isms, cultures, and governments. Like it or not people do need certain mechanisms of control.
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I don't get exactly what you are trying to say here. So because communism, fascism and nazism, for example, were used to control and manipulate people, it's irrelevant whether religion is?

People do need to be controlled to an extent. By far the best option is called a secular democratic state.

3. Some of the greatest scientific advancements have come about from religious figures, and during religions golden ages.
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Once again, this doesn't make any sense. Yes, certain scientific discoveries throughout history have been made by people who happened to be religious. And...?
 
Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God in a way that makes our different belief systems feel less like dividers and more like unifiers of our humanity.
 
Saliph said:
Is it really, when you consider the number of deaths where religion has played either a main or crucial role?
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Hundred's of Millions?


I don't get exactly what you are trying to say here. So because communism, fascism and nazism, for example, were used to control and manipulate people, it's irrelevant whether religion is?

People do need to be controlled to an extent. By far the best option is called a secular democratic state.
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I'm not saying it is! However, it's equally not correct to point fingers at religion alone as a controlling factor.


Once again, this doesn't make any sense. Yes, certain scientific discoveries throughout history have been made by people who happened to be religious. And...?
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Many democratic states are in turmoil. There many factors and reasons. You can't just blame religion alone for worlds ills.
 
Sultan said:
Hundred's of Millions?
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I would think so, but I don't really think this is a particularly interesting point anyway. I don't really care what the precise body count is of deaths that can be directly or indirectly attributed to religion, it's beside the point as far as I'm concerned.


I'm not saying it is! However, it's equally not correct to point fingers at religion alone as a controlling factor.
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Of course it is if religion is the main controlling factor in that particular situation.

Many democratic states are in turmoil. There many factors and reasons. You can't just blame religion alone for worlds ills.
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I never have.
 
The atheist lot will always judge religion only by its abuse, and never by its contribution to the betterment of society. Judging the good work of billions of Jews Christians and Muslims by the criminal idiocy of a minority of nutcases amongst them. And willingly ignoring the enormous effort and sacrifice the majority of honest believers have made for their fellow man, inspired by religious teachings and their belief in someone higher than themselves.
 
That's one of the points Stephen Fry (may he live forever) makes as well, along with some marvellous buildings.

Mihajlovic said:
The atheist lot will always judge religion only by its abuse, and never by its contribution to the betterment of society. Judging the good work of billions of Jews Christians and Muslims by the criminal idiocy of a minority of nutcases amongst them. And willingly ignoring the enormous effort and sacrifice the majority of honest believers have made for their fellow man, inspired by religious teachings and their belief in someone higher than themselves.
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Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you begin your post by referring to "the atheist lot"? And then you ironically follow it up by decrying generalizations about religious people. Come on.
 
Mihajlovic said:
The atheist lot will always judge religion only by its abuse, and never by its contribution to the betterment of society. Judging the good work of billions of Jews Christians and Muslims by the criminal idiocy of a minority of nutcases amongst them. And willingly ignoring the enormous effort and sacrifice the majority of honest believers have made for their fellow man, inspired by religious teachings and their belief in someone higher than themselves.
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Of course there are jews, christians and muslims who have done good work and have benefited society. How many of them though truly follow their religions rigorously ? The vast majority of religious people nowadays are more influenced by modern society's system of values and they try to "combine" it with the religion in which they were brought up. This gives rise to the whole "it's just a matter of how you interpret the texts" line with which "standard" religious people try to distance themselves from the fundamentalists.
 
Commadus said:
It is as germaine as you saying religion is a form of control. Some people can choose to accept all or part of their religion but as a US cicitizen you have to accept all of the parts of the Patriot Act.

Both are forms of control.
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You can be against both you know. Just because governments also do bad things it doesn't negate the effect religion has.
 
Werewolf said:
Of course there are jews, christians and muslims who have done good work and have benefited society. How many of them though truly follow their religions rigorously ? The vast majority of religious people nowadays are more influenced by modern society's system of values and they try to "combine" it with the religion in which they were brought up. This gives rise to the whole "it's just a matter of how you interpret the texts" line with which "standard" religious people try to distance themselves from the fundamentalists.
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Most scientific advances that were made by Muslims were directly promoted by Islam itself as a religion, in a period when Islam was still fresh..
 
Saliph said:
I would think so, but I don't really think this is a particularly interesting point anyway. I don't really care what the precise body count is of deaths that can be directly or indirectly attributed to religion, it's beside the point as far as I'm concerned.
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How many deaths can be directly or indirectly attributed to the United States? Just in the last 75 years?
 
Danny1982 said:
How many deaths can be directly or indirectly attributed to the United States? Just in the last 75 years?
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I have no idea. Why do you ask?

Religious influence often lurks beneath the surface, like in the case of the Virginia Tech massacre, where the shooter's mother recognized that something was wrong with her son. The solution? An exorcism.
 
Saliph said:
I have no idea. Why do you ask?
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You have given it a good thought and made an educated guess (I assume) about how many deaths could have been caused by religion. Can you give me a similar estimate for death that can directly or indirectly be attributed to something other than religion, like the US for example?

The point is clear. Even without religion people will still kill each other IMO. They will use any excuse to do so, in order to survive/get more power. Every side will have to find an excuse for his actions, and they will find that excuse regardless.

Syrian rebels now want to topple Assad. They tell the Muslims they're doing it for Islam. They tell the West they're doing it for democracy and freedom. The truth they want to gain more power.

Assad wants to kill the rebels. He tells the Syrians it's to defend their country. He tells the Muslims it's because they don't represent Islam. He tells the West it's because they're terrorists. The truth he wants to stay in power.

The US wants and helps the rebels to win. They tell the world it's because they want democracy and freedom for the Syrians. The truth is they want to fight Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah, to get more control over the region.

People will always find excuses to do what they want to do. Religion is one of them, but it's not the cause of the tragedies on Earth. The people are. In my opinion.
 
niMic said:
That's one of the points Stephen Fry (may he live forever) makes as well, along with some marvellous buildings.



Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you begin your post by referring to "the atheist lot"? And then you ironically follow it up by decrying generalizations about religious people. Come on.
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Generalisations is just about all I hear from the atheists lot who keep on ranting and venting in this fifty pages long thread. As I have lamented a while ago, we used to have some good discussions on religion and philosophy a few years back. But ever since the likes of Saliph and his disciples hijacked the caf, this place has become a joke. Even you have lost your feistiness, nimic. You're probably getting bored of it all.
 
Danny1982 said:
People will always find excuses to do what they want to do. Religion is one of them, but it's not the cause of the tragedies on Earth. The people are. In my opinion.
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Well yes, it was people that dreamt up all the religions in the first place, of course.
 
Danny1982 said:
You have given it a good thought and made an educated guess (I assume) about how many deaths could have been caused by religion. Can you give me a similar estimate for death that can directly or indirectly be attributed to something other than religion, like the US for example?
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- I wasn't the one who used the number 100 million. And as I said I think it's a pretty pointless and uninteresting exercise anyway.

The point is clear. Even without religion people will still kill each other IMO.
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- Yes? Has anyone ever denied that?

Syrian rebels now want to topple Assad. They tell the Muslims they're doing it for Islam. They tell the West they're doing it for democracy and freedom. The truth they want to gain more power.

Assad wants to kill the rebels. He tells the Syrians it's to defend their country. He tells the Muslims it's because they don't represent Islam. He tells the West it's because they're terrorists. The truth he wants to stay in power.

The US wants and helps the rebels to win. They tell the world it's because they want democracy and freedom for the Syrians. The truth is they want to fight Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah, to get more control over the region.

People will always find excuses to do what they want to do. Religion is one of them, but it's not the cause of the tragedies on Earth. The people are. In my opinion.
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I'm so sick of debating this asinine point. If this is really your view, then I assume you wouldn't make a moral judgment about Nazism either? "Nazism wasn't the cause of the Holocaust, people were". It's just ludicrous to absolve ideas of all blame like that.

To say that "ideas and beliefs don't matter, people are the problem" is nothing more than throwing your hands up in the air and capitulating. People act in certain ways because of what they believe. It's not about using religion as an "excuse", it's about the behavioral consequences of beliefs.
 
Danny1982 said:
Most scientific advances that were made by Muslims were directly promoted by Islam itself as a religion, in a period when Islam was still fresh..
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I fail to see the relationship with what I said as I was talking about moral values. For instance, Muhammad went around ordering to kill any poet who wrote satirical poems against him. I don't think any moderate muslim would agree with that nowadays as modern values stress on freedom of speech.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Generalisations is just about all I hear from the atheists lot who keep on ranting and venting in this fifty pages long thread. As I have lamented a while ago, we used to have some good discussions on religion and philosophy a few years back. But ever since the likes of Saliph and his disciples hijacked the caf, this place has become a joke. Even you have lost your feistiness, nimic. You're probably getting bored of it all.
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Yes, but I'm a bitter, spiteful cnut, remember? Nice choice of words, by the way. Very Christ-like.
 
Werewolf said:
Muhammad went around ordering to kill any poet who wrote satirical poems against him. I don't think any moderate muslim would agree with that nowadays as modern values stress on freedom of speech.
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Can you get me a link to this claim, please buddy.
 
Saliph said:
Yes, but I'm a bitter, spiteful cnut, remember? Nice choice of words, by the way. Very Christ-like.
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No way, you still remember that ;). Not sure what you mean with 'Christ-like', however, since Christ is a non-entity to you, so why would you even hold this as reference for the point you're trying to make?!
 
Mihajlovic said:
No way, you still remember that ;). Not sure what you mean with 'Christ-like', however, since Christ is a non-entity to you, so why would you even hold this as reference for the point you're trying to make?!
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He isn't to you. Aren't you a follower of Christ? That was kind of my point, I thought that was obvious.
 
Mihajlovic said:
No way, you still remember that ;). Not sure what you mean with 'Christ-like', however, since Christ is a non-entity to you, so why would you even hold this as reference for the point you're trying to make?!
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He means as religionists we should be nice and saintly in our conduct, and follow the example of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).
 
When you call other people bitter spiteful cnuts, it rings somewhat hollow that you claim to be a follower of the guy who said "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek".

That's all.
 
Saliph said:
When you call other people bitter spiteful cnuts, it rings somewhat hollow that you claim to be a follower of the guy who said "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek".

That's all.
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I agree.

We should be following the examples set by those we follow, as best we can. However, you've got to forgive us for the occasional slip up - being weak, and human beings.
 
Grinner said:
I love telling yanks that Muslims believe in Jesus....you'd be amazed how many don't know that.
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It's not just the Yanks, Grinner. I'd say the majority is unaware of this fact.

We wouldn't be able to call ourselves Muslims if we didn't believe in Prophet Jesus (PBUH).
 
Saliph said:
When you call other people bitter spiteful cnuts, it rings somewhat hollow that you claim to be a follower of the guy who said "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek".

That's all.
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I wouldn't say it rings hollow. I'd say it simply underlines my own shortcomings as I'm aspiring to reach an ideal, for example. But I'm still not fully clear as to why you would expect me to express the values taught and promoted by a fictional character?
 
Sultan said:
Can you get me a link to this claim, please buddy.
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Sure :

From Sahih El Bukhari (considered by many as the second most important and credible book in Islam after the Coran)

Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who would kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle? Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, ‘I will kill him.’ So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka’b and said, ‘I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of foodgrains.’" After dickering over what to hold as mortgage, they agreed that Muhammad bin Maslama would mortgage his weapons. So he promised him that he would come with his weapons next time." Bukhari vol.3 book 45 ch.3 no.687 p.415

See also Abu Afak whose killing was documented in 'Sirat Rasul Allah' which is the oldest biography of the prophet :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_'Afak
 
Mihajlovic said:
I wouldn't say it rings hollow. I'd say it simply underlines my own shortcomings as I'm aspiring to reach an ideal, for example. But I'm still not fully clear as to why you would expect me to express the values taught and promoted by a fictional character?
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Don't be intentionally dense, Mihajlovic, it doesn't suit you. It's pretty clear what he means. It is irrelevant whether he believes in a faith for him to be able to point out that other people don't follow their supposed creed. He can point out republican hypocrisy without being a republican, for example. I am neither a Christian, a Republican or a gay man, but I still laugh and point whenever a fire and brimstone preacher is caught soliciting gay sex in a bathroom stall.
 
I'm not an Atheist by the way.

In the Bible, God himself killed millions of people. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that religion has caused the death of hundreds of millions of people.
 
Saliph said:
I'm so sick of debating this asinine point. If this is really your view, then I assume you wouldn't make a moral judgment about Nazism either? "Nazism wasn't the cause of the Holocaust, people were". It's just ludicrous to absolve ideas of all blame like that.

To say that "ideas and beliefs don't matter, people are the problem" is nothing more than throwing your hands up in the air and capitulating. People act in certain ways because of what they believe. It's not about using religion as an "excuse", it's about the behavioral consequences of beliefs.
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Only if every follower of that ideology commits or agrees with those actions, then those actions can be attributed to that ideology.

And if you think religions are basically a Nazi book, then you don't know much about religions IMO.

Also by the way, just so you don't take the wrong impression, that doesn't mean that religion will have to fit everything you believe in for it to be right. There might be things that religion has a different say about than you. That doesn't necessarily mean that "religion is wrong". You're not the standard "right" that we should judge all religions against after all.
 
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