And still Iran has executed several thousand people for "homosexual acts" since the revolution.
Most Muslim countries aren't as bad, luckily.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
- Start date
And still Iran has executed several thousand people for "homosexual acts" since the revolution.
Most Muslim countries aren't as bad, luckily.
Especially considering that a thousand and four hundred years ago (time of Mohammed), cutting somebody a hand means that that person is not able to work anymore. And knowing that Islam is a patriarchal society, that means that the entire family will suffer a lot and probably won't have even food to survive.
Even now that is a big problem. I mean for the majority of people if they don't have a hand they are less likely to have a job, and knowing that in many places when Islam is the primary religion, they are undeveloped country, cutting hands means that those person won't be able to work physical jobs (which easily could be the only available jobs) and his entire family will have basic problems of surviving. Take aside the horrific nature of cutting parts of body, it also is economically ridiculous.
Leaving Islam on the basis of belief without offering any damage or oppression to others or to the state does not carry any type of punishment. There were even cases during the time of the prophet (PBUH), where peple converted to Islam, and then left, and back again. There were also cases people left their faith and did not come back and lived on without any persecution or prosecution whatsoever.
I think Sultan's point about incest is fair one.
How can we claim that consenting adults should be free in their sexual behaviour, but then make an exception for consenting adults who are related? I think the obvious difference is that incest can result in birth defects in offspring, but what about incest between two consenting men or women?
Most of us in the West oppose incest because it is socially wired into us to oppose it, not because we have given it any serious thought. This is how it is in the Muslim world with homosexuality.
How can we claim that consenting adults should be free in their sexual behaviour, but then make an exception for consenting adults who are related? I think the obvious difference is that incest can result in birth defects in offspring, but what about incest between two consenting men or women?
Most of us in the West oppose incest because it is socially wired into us to oppose it, not because we have given it any serious thought. This is how it is in the Muslim world with homosexuality.
In practice this is not the case. 99% of Muslims around the world don't have any real say in the matter. The social consequences of leaving their faith are too severe to make it a serious option.
But is this true about the society that are ruled by Quran law? Is is really possible leaving Islam in Saudi Arabia?
I know what Quran says, but the practice of religion could be a bit different.
Can you link me with a credible article to these figures? Religious law does not authorise the state to execute these people.
Where do you pluck out these percentages from?
This is too much though. There are a lot of really secular states when Islam is the primary religion and there are a lot of other Muslims who live in the West. No need to make this even more dramatic than it is.
As a Muslim I follow the Qur'an, and the Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet). Laws and rules of particular countries are their business.
Well, I don't think the percentage of '99%' is supposed to be taken as statistically accurate in this sort of context. What I mean is the vast, vast majority. I think I would apply it to 95-99% of Muslims, if you want me to put a genuine figure on it.
Even in the West I would say most Muslims don't really have a meaningful choice in their religion. Not unless they don't mind risking losing their friends, and maybe their family.
Come on. Thousands of homosexuals are persecuted/beaten and a substantial number are killed every year in countries like Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey etc. There have been many reports of Palestinian gays who have fled to Israel. Most of the hate crime against gays in Holland is committed by Muslims. You run a huge risk by being openly gay in any Muslim majority country.
It's just not comparable at all.
We can debate whether consensual incest between adults should be legal or not, but to compare it with how homosexuals are treated in Islamic countries is extremely disingenuous and downright insulting.
All I'm asking for are figures from a reputable study/site to these numbers. Surely that's not too much to ask.
"99% of Muslims don't want to be Muslims. Now, bear in mind, that figure I plucked out of my arse, and I've no idea how many do or don't want to be Muslims, but we'll use that figure anyway, because I'm pretty sure it's accurate. In fact, I'd go as far as to call it a facht"
You have seen to scary movies mate. It could be for specific cases , but very likely not for most.
Also, these are secular Islamic countries:
Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Azerbaijan
Bangladesh
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo
Turkey
I am absolutely sure about the bold (European) countries that this is truly the case. I guess that most of those Asian states are really secular, though I don't have an idea if this is really the case about African states.
You see, in many countries when Islam is the biggest religion, those people are not ruled by Quran law. Add with the people who live in the West, and the percentage dramatically decreases.
Note: I also think that Malaysia has freedom of religion.
Find them yourself. A quick Google search will provide plenty. This is mainstream knowledge to any half-educated person.
Also, its not just Islamic countries. The same can be said about numerous African/West Indian countries. But again, the root cause of the attack on homosexuality/human rights stems from religion, be it Christianity or Islam.
Sultan, name me at least 3 Muslim countries where I can live peacefully as a open gay man?
That's not what he said at all.
I don't see why incest can't be legal.
An interesting site for anyone interested in rules regarding apostasy.
http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.co.uk/
http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.co.uk/
Kosovo and Albania. Find the third for yourself.
Muslim-majority countries such as Indonesia,[3] Jordan, and Turkey, there are no civil laws against homosexual practice.
Muslim-majority countries Albania, Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone have signed a UN Declaration supporting LGBT rights in the General Assembly and/or the UNHRC.[6][7] OIC member-state Mozambique provides LGBT rights protections in law in the form of non-discrimination laws, and discussions on legally recognizing same-sex marriage have been held in the country.
Wiki
Albania nearly legalized gay marriage not too long ago, but the ruling party couldn't get enough of the opposition on side to change the constitution. And it's not overly religious, even the imams get pissed all the time. Any homophobia won't be motivated by religion really. Most parts of Albania are still quite homophobic but the touristy ones won't mind your custom. Older people specially are very close minded. If you go to Albania to live as an openly gay man, you won't have an easy ride.
edit: I seem to have no control over the size of the text.
edit: I seem to have no control over the size of the text.
Sierra Leone might have signed a declaration, but male homosexuality is still illegal, although I cannot tell if it's being enforced or not (apparently the life imprisonment part is definitely not enforced). And while it is technically legal in countries such as Jordan and Indonesia, people are still killed and discriminated over it. Whether something is legal or not is not always the most relevant part.
Edit: Man, that font you used does not look good when quoted, Sultan.
It's copy and paste job from Wiki. The new site apparently copies the same font from the original source.
That's going to be interesting for a while, until people get a hang of it. Is there no way to do like Word, which lets you choose whether to keep the original formatting or not?
Yep, that's right. Probably you won't have an easy ride, but I think that this is not because of the Islam religion. It is not in that culture to easily accept homosexuals, though now it's more easy than some time before.
Kosovo has in it's constitute that it allows gay marriage, a think that still many Western countries haven't legalized. Despite that it has a population of more 90% Muslims.
What can happen if you leave Islam and publically criticise it?
Well dodged.
I have.
A simple question, what happens in Islam if you leave and publically criticise the faith. Can that be punishable in this lifetime?
I know you haven't been inclined to try but I'm sure you still know the answer.
Ok, o when you say:
"Leaving Islam on the basis of belief without offering any damage or oppression to others or to the state does not carry any type of punishment.".
Is that a fact in all Islamic countries or can this also vary depending on where you live?
That's a universal rule. If any country does not follow this edict the blame is directed towards the people responsible.
There is a complex called the Oedipus Complex, which tries to point out the social reasons we find incestuous relationships immoral.
Personally, if two gay brothers want to bang eachother, it doesn't bother me. I wouldn't want to think about it. It's a very good question.
Maybe socially it's more shunned upon because it can break up a family, and siblings when the relationship ends.
Jake, this is a conversation in the CE Forum, there's no need to assume we are all thick. I think most adults of moderate intelligence have heard of the Oedipus complex.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I hadn't heard of it until recently. Sorry.