Religion, what's the point?

jakec said:
Most of this is just random thoughts that I've had and I haven't fact checked them lately, and I'd welcome people to try disprove them. I'm pretty sure on the Sikhism part though.

In Mosaic law, women were treated better then they were in Pre Islamic Arabia, but women did not have equal rights.

In Ancient Egypt, women had total equal rights, but lived in a more patriarchal society then say modern day Secular Egypt.

In Ancient Rome, women were 'free' and were citizens, but had no right to vote, take office etc.

In Early Christianity, some work was done to make society more egalitarian, if the women complied with the Christian church. Basically they could take up small pastoral roles.

Ironically, Islamic law actually increased Womens rights in Arabia in a lot of cases. They had rights in marriage, divorce, and property well before a lot of the West.

In Scandanavia, before Christianity came to play, Women had equal rights to men. After which they were under tutelage.

In Ireland, under Brehon law women were treat civilly but as second class citizens. They had no right to property, but weren't treated as bad as in GB which had mental laws on witchcraft and with slavery laws.

A trend that seems to follow is the fact that under no religion at all women were treated equally. Under primitive religions they were mostly treated awfully, until major religions came to play and lifted them to a certain standard, but have fell short of expected standards.

One religion I'll compliment on there treatment of women is Sikhism, under which women and men have totally equal rights.

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived;
to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.
— Guru Nanak
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Why ironically?
 
MJJ said:
Why ironically?
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Mainly because Sharia law has a name for treating women like shit, ut things were actually worse beforehand.

That being said, I don't condone sharia.
 
Of course not. I'm pointing out that Religion (at least these religions) have been out dated and don't coincide with today's values.
 
Not in the context it was used I suppose, but still a little bit unsavoury nonetheless?
 
I am not. But the thread title was not conducive to a good discussion. It put religious folk on the back foot from the off, and like it or not could be quite offensive to religious folk. The discussion can be had as hard and fast as we like in the thread but the title is for all to see. Is that not fair?
 
moses said:
I am not. But the thread title was not conducive to a good discussion. It put religious folk on the back foot from the off, and like it or not could be quite offensive to religious folk. The discussion can be had as hard and fast as we like in the thread but the title is for all to see. Is that not fair?
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I've never really understood the problem with offending someone in fairness, but I see you're point.
 
Yeah, you know me and my fondness for insult and offence, but I think scattergun offence is a bit unfair. I like to focus my ire.
 
MJJ said:
Okay..most of that is due to how sharia law is interpreted though.
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Flogging
Slavery
Wife beating
Forced amputation
Criminality of homosexuality, punishable by death
Illegality of pre marital sex
Punishment of rape victims

I can't interpret that as anything else but barbaric.
 
Lads. The most amazing thing ever just happened to me. I was out in the forests in Wicklow, just reflecting on my life. Wondering why things weren't working out, and I said to the sky ''God if you're out there, show yourself to me. Tell me how to live. Show me the way.''

Suddenly there was an almighty flash of light, and a voice emerged from the clouds telling me to ''Follow the light.'' Now, this was tough because suddenly the sun started to shine and shot lines of light in all directions. So I used my faith and followed one of them until I found a pigeon laying on the ground with a ruffled feather. I picked up the pigeon and said ''Lord, is this what we have to follow, the way of the bird? The way of freedom?

Then the voice said ''Live your life as if you were a pigeon, ye all should live like birds. All other ways of life are abhorrent and should be smited with all of your bird like strength.

I then realized that the answer was so clear. He didn't mean be like pigeons. He meant to try and actually be pigeons. So, my friends. Even though this all happened miles away from anybody else, it's categorical evidence that this is the way.

We need to fly from the holy mountain. Tickets cost 1000 euro. If ye truly believe, then God will spare you like he did to the pigeons. I not ye shall fall like a stone.
 
jakec said:
Flogging
Slavery
Wife beating
Forced amputation
Criminality of homosexuality, punishable by death
Illegality of pre marital sex
Punishment of rape victims

I can't interpret that as anything else but barbaric.
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Enlighten me about wife beating please. First time hearing that.

Islam doesnt encourage slavery? Infacts its the opposite. It encourages muslims to free slaves.

Forced amputation, the punishment for theft is that your left hand is cut off but not if you are stealing for food. I think thats fair.

Rape victims should be punished?:confused: No idea why punishing them is seen as being barbaric.

And dont think there is a lot wrong with pre-marital sex being forbidden.
 
MJJ said:
Enlighten me about wife beating please. First time hearing that.

Islam doesnt encourage slavery? Infacts its the opposite. It encourages muslims to free slaves.

Forced amputation, the punishment for theft is that your left hand is cut off but not if you are stealing for food. I think thats fair.

Rape victims should be punished?:confused: No idea why punishing them is seen as being barbaric.

And dont think there is a lot wrong with pre-marital sex being forbidden.
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You surely are on terrible terrible windup aren't you?

So if I were born in Saudi, it is fair that:

1. My arm is chopped off for pickpocketing
2. My wife gets gang-raped and then awarded 50 whip lashes
3. I am not allowed to shag chicks before marriage. Are you a virgin btw?
 
Whoa. Has to be confusion/misunderstanding.

Although if anyone has seen Lawrence Wright's 'My Trip to Al-Qaeda' it may not be so shocking how some Islamic persons truly believe in their faith...

---The latter is illustrated wrenchingly in anecdotes about a tragic fire at a girls’ school (the students were not properly dressed, so they were allowed to burn alive) and how he watched helplessly as a woman reckless enough to expose her face in public was chased down the street by a member of the religious police. (Mr. Wright adds the macabre detail that many of these enforcers of Islam’s strict moral codes are ex-convicts who memorized the Koran in prison.)---


http://theater2.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/theater/reviews/06trip.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
MJJ said:
Enlighten me about wife beating please. First time hearing that.

Islam doesnt encourage slavery? Infacts its the opposite. It encourages muslims to free slaves.

Forced amputation, the punishment for theft is that your left hand is cut off but not if you are stealing for food. I think thats fair.

Rape victims should be punished?:confused: No idea why punishing them is seen as being barbaric.

And dont think there is a lot wrong with pre-marital sex being forbidden.
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Assuming the rape victims part is an error, hopefully!, thinking that having your left hand cut off for theft is fair is still mind boggling.
 
My bad. Read it late and didn't comprehend it properly. Thought it was rapists nit rape victims. Hence my confusion. I dont think Islam punishes rape victims.

and the left hand being chopped off is clearly a deterent against theft. If everyone knew that punishment would be implimented hardly anyone would take the risk of stealing just for the thrills.
 
Kaush949 said:
You surely are on terrible terrible windup aren't you?

So if I were born in Saudi, it is fair that:

1. My arm is chopped off for pickpocketing
2. My wife gets gang-raped and then awarded 50 whip lashes
3. I am not allowed to shag chicks before marriage. Are you a virgin btw?
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1. If you steal for food i.e. To survive your hand wont be chopped under Islamic law.
2. That was a mistake, thought it was rapists not rape victims.
3.I am and it is
 
MJJ said:
1. If you steal for food i.e. To survive your hand wont be chopped under Islamic law.
2. That was a mistake, thought it was rapists not rape victims.
3.I am and it is
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What happens if you never meet the right person and so don't marry. Does that mean no sex, ever?
 
MrMojo said:
What happens if you never meet the right person and so don't marry. Does that mean no sex, ever?
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:lol: You are allowed to divorce the person you marry if they are not right. Its not like its eternal where you can only marry once and are stuck with that person. Plus look at how many teenagers believe that the person they are with is the ONE, I doubt there is any who spend their whole life waiting for the right person.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: You are allowed to divorce the person you marry if they are not right. Its not like its eternal where you can only marry once and are stuck with that person. Plus look at how many teenagers believe that the person they are with is the ONE, I doubt there is any who spend their whole life waiting for the right person.
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No I mean, what if you never get married. Presumably if you can't have sex before marriage that leaves you somewhat frustrated.
 
MrMojo said:
No I mean, what if you never get married. Presumably if you can't have sex before marriage that leaves you somewhat frustrated.
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Well thats why Islam encourages you to get married as soon as you start getting the urges and feel you cant control it anymore. Being unmarried is considered bad in Islam as it goes against the teachings of our Prophet.
 
Kaush949 said:
You surely are on terrible terrible windup aren't you?

So if I were born in Saudi, it is fair that:

1. My arm is chopped off for pickpocketing
2. My wife gets gang-raped and then awarded 50 whip lashes
3. I am not allowed to shag chicks before marriage. Are you a virgin btw?
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1. Only for greed AND you get caught red-handed AND there are at least two 'respectable witnesses. The chances of all of this happening is very low. Stealing food does not apply.

2. The woman gets the lashes if it is PROVED that she lied about getting raped.

3. Sex before marriage is not allowed in many religions including Christianity, Judaism and most others. There is nothing wrong with this. If you dont agree, dont follow said religion. It's that simple, and having that rule does not cause harm to people that are not religious.
 
MJJ said:
Well thats why Islam encourages you to get married as soon as you start getting the urges and feel you cant control it anymore. Being unmarried is considered bad in Islam as it goes against the teachings of our Prophet.
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Why is that? What does the prophet say about not getting married?
 
MrMojo said:
Why is that? What does the prophet say about not getting married?
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It was authentically reported from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) that he said: "It was made beloved to me of your world: women and perfume, and the joy of my eye was made in Salah." He also said: "O youth, whoever among you is able to marry should marry." He said: "Marry women who are loving and very prolific, for I shall outnumber the peoples by you."


His way in dealing with his wives was based on kind treatment and good behavior. He used to say: "The best among you is the one who treats his family in the best manner and I am the best (among you) to my family."

Nikaah(our marriage cermony) is from my path'. 'Whosoever dislikes my Sunnah is not from me (my Ummah)'.

‘A person who possesses the means to marry (i.e. he is able to work etc. to support a wife and children) and does not marry then he is not from amongst us (i.e. the believers).’

In another narration the Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him has been reported to have said,

‘Do not delay in three things; 1) The offering of the obligatory prayer. 2) The offering of the funeral prayer when the deceased’s body is present . 3) The marriage of a woman when her couple is found’
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The second quote also shows the importance of family in Islam so have no idea where the wife beating claims came from.
 
MJJ said:
It was authentically reported from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) that he said: "It was made beloved to me of your world: women and perfume, and the joy of my eye was made in Salah." He also said: "O youth, whoever among you is able to marry should marry." He said: "Marry women who are loving and very prolific, for I shall outnumber the peoples by you."


His way in dealing with his wives was based on kind treatment and good behavior. He used to say: "The best among you is the one who treats his family in the best manner and I am the best (among you) to my family."

Nikaah(our marriage cermony) is from my path'. 'Whosoever dislikes my Sunnah is not from me (my Ummah)'.

The second quote also shows the importance of family in Islam so have no idea where the wife beating claims came from.
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The usual reason, a different part of the texts says its ok to beat and scourge women under certain circumstances.

Anyways, have you personally ever considered why it's bad not to marry. I mean putting aside what the Prophet says, have you ever questioned why it's bad not to marry and instead just share your life with the one you love.
 
MrMojo said:
The usual reason, a different part of the texts says its ok to beat and scourge women under certain circumstances.

Anyways, have you personally ever considered why it's bad not to marry. I mean putting aside what the Prophet says, have you ever questioned why it's bad not to marry and instead just share your life with the one you love.
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Can you link that text to me please?

Personally I think marriage gives women a bit more security as they were treated appallingly before the introduction of Islam and still are in most third world countires. I know in the western world women are a lot more independent but thats not the case in the east. The marriage contract entitles the women to a portion of the husbands income and gives her rights which he must respect which might not be the case otherwise.

And if you do love someone, whats the difference? Its the same thing whether you sign a piece of paper or not.
 
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