Religion, what's the point?

I feel dumber for actually having to explain this to you. When you asked me for a source, did you really expect me to fish up an opinion poll conducted of the entire global Muslim population?

Goodness gracious.

When your vague statement taken at face value claims the entire global Muslim population, then yes I expect something that backs it up. Unless what you mean to say, is a select few. In which case, you should probably say that, rather than trying to claim the entire population.

You and I both know that 36% of all the young British Muslims do not believe that. So your claim is bullshit. You simply cannot say that the views of 0.0130625% of people, represent 36% of the people. It's completely wrong. It makes your argument look a lot less legitimate when you do it properly, and it makes your argument look a lot more potent when you twist the words.
 
Is it not somewhat unrepresentative to use the ideas of British Muslims, when they make up a mere fraction of the number of Muslims in countries and societies that we know for a fact advocate such actions?
 
Answer this simple question Saliph. If I ask you for your opinion, can I then claim that 100% of RedCafe believe in what you believe?

Yes or no.

Or do I need to expand on my claim, by saying that 100% of the people I asked, which makes a gigantic difference in what I'm trying to claim.

Because if you actually altered your statement so that your claim is true, your stat suddenly doesn't look as good as it did a minute ago and doesn't suit your argument anymore.
 
Answer this simple question Saliph. If I ask you for your opinion, can I then claim that 100% of RedCafe believe in what you believe?

Yes or no.

Or do I need to expand on my claim, by saying that 100% of the people I asked, which makes a gigantic difference in what I'm trying to claim.
There have been many polls run on the caf, some people have answered them, most have not. Do you think the polls become moot because there wasn't a 100% reply rate?
 
There have been many polls run on the caf, some people have answered them, most have not. Do you think the polls become moot because 100% of the people on redcafe didn't reply?

No, I think it's fairly obvious that the answers that come out of the polls represent the people who entered them, and not the people who didn't. I'd have thought that not having chance to give your opinion on something, doesn't equate to someone then making up for themselves what your view is to suit their stats?

As I asked Saliph, can I claim that 100% of RedCafe believe something, if I ask him his opinion on something?

We both know, the answer is no. That would be ridiculous. So likewise, my attempts to claim it would be ridiculous. What makes all the difference in the world, is specifying 'of the people asked' and the sample size so you can make your own mind up as to how significant the results are. Which in the case you gave for young British Muslims, not very.
 
No, I think it's fairly obvious that the answers that come out of the polls represent the people who entered them, and not the people who didn't. I'd have thought that not having chance to give your opinion on something, doesn't equate to someone then making up for themselves what your view is to suit their stats?

As I asked Saliph, can I claim that 100% of RedCafe believe something, if I ask him his opinion on something?

We both know, the answer is no. That would be ridiculous.
You've reached a false conclusion thanks to your proposition. You wouldn't ask just one person, that's not a poll, that's an interview.

Besides, as I said, the pew poll had 38,000 participants. Even if you ignore the poll in the UK, it's clear that large numbers of Muslims are in favor of the death penalty again Apostasy.
 
No, I think it's fairly obvious that the answers that come out of the polls represent the people who entered them, and not the people who didn't. I'd have thought that not having chance to give your opinion on something, doesn't equate to someone then making up for themselves what your view is to suit their stats?

As I asked Saliph, can I claim that 100% of RedCafe believe something, if I ask him his opinion on something?

We both know, the answer is no.
That would be ridiculous. So likewise, my attempts to claim it would be ridiculous. What makes all the difference in the world, is specifying 'of the people asked' and the sample size so you can make your own mind up as to how significant the results are. Which in the case you gave for young British Muslims, not very.

He's not actually claimed anything remotely similar to that though. He got called out for not providing evidence, you've now been presented with two surveys. What more do you want? Do you want them to spend years asking every Muslim in the world what their views are?
 
You're embarrassing yourself more and more.

And you just ignore or change the subject to a different angle when somebody argues back against you. Maybe I am embarrassing myself in some ways, but I'm not the one claiming that millions of people I've never even asked and have no idea what they believe, believe something.
 
He's not actually claimed anything remotely similar to that though. He got called out for not providing evidence, you've now been presented with two surveys. What more do you want? Do you want them to spend years asking every Muslim in the world what their views are?

He said quite simply, that 36% of British Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death.

36% of 1.6 million people.

576,000 share this view, apparently.

When really, they only asked 209 people and 72 said yes.

It's quite simple, if you want to claim something on behalf of all of them, then you need to ask all of them. If you don't want to do this because it's impossible to do, or anything like that then you simply can't claim it.

You can claim that 36% of 200 people out of a total 1.6 million said it. Then people would laugh it out and say 'well that's insignificant' or you could make a statement such as 36% of 1.6 million people believe something. Which you have no evidence for.

There's a massive difference, once looks very supportive of Saliphs argument, and the other, ah not so much.
 
And you just ignore or change the subject to a different angle when somebody argues back against you. Maybe I am embarrassing myself in some ways, but I'm not the one claiming that millions of people I've never even asked and have no idea what they believe, believe something.

You're arguing against would could have just been an over-exaggeration to make a point. We know that in Muslim countries there are laws that mean women will be subject to lashings and being stoned to death for getting raped or even performing 'witchcraft'. If the majority didn't agree with that then there'd be far more opposition than we see. He's provided some evidence, which he admitted had a small sample size, but short of conducting his own survey or spending hours searching for many others, he's provided at least some evidence to support his argument. Silva's provided a link to yet another survey to go along with that as well. You constantly comparing it to asking 8 people or 1 people something on here is just making you look like a tool. You've not provided one link to anything remotely academic to support any of your claims, yet have been extremely quick to write-off the stuff that Saliph and Silva have linked to.
 
Feel free to point us to polls that show otherwise. It's the logical thing to do in a debate.

If there were a poll that actually existed that showed what you're trying to claim then I would.

The fault I'm picking at lies with your actual claim, it's wrong. There's a massive difference in what that poll shows, and what you're actually claiming.

Your claim is basically '500,000+ people believe this' and you have no way of backing that up. You can laugh off all you like the impossibilities of carried out the required work to actually back up your claim, but all that means is that you can't claim it in the meantime. Your actual claim looks a lot less favourable.
 
He said quite simply, that 36% of British Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death.

No, I gave you a link to a poll that gave those results, what I said about it was:

And yes, 208 people is not a big sample, and there's more uncertainty than if there's say, 10,000 people, but it's an indication nonetheless.

208 people is enough if you get a representative sample of the population, but obviously, the less people you poll, the harder that is to do.

By the way, the sample may have been skewed the other way too, you know. Maybe actually more than 36% think that apostates should be killed.
 
'Among muslims who believe sharia should be law of the land'

That's not really a fair representation of the average British Muslim.
I know, this is a separate poll, relating exclusively to Islamic states. We're not pretending otherwise.

Like I said in the last page, there's a difference between how religious people act in secular states to how they do in religious ones.
 
He said quite simply, that 36% of British Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death.

36% of 1.6 million people.

576,000 share this view, apparently.

When really, they only asked 209 people and 72 said yes.

It's quite simple, if you want to claim something on behalf of all of them, then you need to ask all of them. If you don't want to do this because it's impossible to do, or anything like that then you simply can't claim it.

You can claim that 36% of 200 people out of a total 1.6 million said it. Then people would laugh it out and say 'well that's insignificant' or you could make a statement such as 36% of 1.6 million people believe something. Which you have no evidence for.

There's a massive difference, once looks very supportive of Saliphs argument, and the other, ah not so much.

It was an opinion poll. They operate on small sample sizes and extrapolate their results to the wider population. It may well turn out that it's not a representative sample, but as it stands he provided the source of his claim. As has been repeated multiple times though, we know for a fact that it is law in Muslim countries to lash and stone women for being raped and performing 'witchcraft', so it's not really accurate to say that such views aren't actually held by an extremely large number of Muslims. Likewise, it's probably very unrepresentative to use the opinions of British Muslims when talking about the opinions of the wider Muslim community because they are likely to be far more liberal than those held by people in predominantly Muslim countries.
 
No, I gave you a link to a poll that gave those results, what I said about it was:

208 people is enough if you get a representative sample of the population, but obviously, the less people you poll, the harder that is to do.

Exactly, which is why I'm arguing that polling 209 people and then saying that 576,000 people share that view is bullshit. There's nothing wrong with polling 209 people, it's the part where you then claim that 576,000 people think something. If you claimed that 72 people out of 209 believed something then suddenly it changes and all I can suspect is that the reason you won't acknowledge it is because it makes your point look a hell of a lot less valid. Since 209 people do not make up 36% of British Muslims, then you simply cannot claim that 36% of British Muslims believe something. It's simple English.

How about the pew poll then? Do you at least accept that? Or do they need 38000 more people?

I'm going to actually read the whole thing. I'm genuinely interested in this topic. I just take issue with twisting English to make a claim that you can't possible make, because the work required to reach that conclusion is way too high, but instead of making a claim that you can make, going ahead with the one you can't anyway.
 
They operate on small sample sizes and extrapolate their results to the wider population. It may well turn out that it's not a representative sample

This is the entire reason, why the claim that he wrote in this thread is wrong. He has claimed more than once in this thread, that 36% of young British Muslims believe this. It's an extremely bold, concrete and absolute statement to make, that can't be backed up. It's misleading. In its literal form he has said '576,000 people in Britain believe this.' It claims something that simply hasn't been shown.

A simple 'of the people polled' fixes the claim completely, but then it suddenly looks a lot less favorable. Which is why I take issue with it, because it massively exaggerates something to suit an agenda.
 
The UK poll could have been better, and results might have differed if you'd have a bigger sample size. But it being the only poll available to us right now, it is worth taking into consideration.
 
This is the entire reason, why the claim that he wrote in this thread is wrong. He has claimed more than once in this thread, that 36% of young British Muslims believe this. It's an extremely bold, concrete and absolute statement to make, that can't be backed up. It's misleading. In its literal form he has said '576,000 people in Britain believe this.' It claims something that simply hasn't been shown.

A simple 'of the people polled' fixes the claim completely, but then it suddenly looks a lot less favorable. Which is why I take issue with it, because it massively exaggerates something to suit an agenda.

He said it and backed it up with the poll. He didn't refuse to give and just say he saw it on the internet, he posted it because people demanded evidence. As has been said, opinion polls are used all the time with a small sample and then the results extrapolated. He's admitted its shortcomings but you're still attacking him as if he's arguing it's validity. It's also been pointed out that there could well be more than 36%.
 
May have been posted or not, from pew

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

Muslims Who Favor Making Sharia Official Law
Faith and Morality
Women’s Rights
Extremism Widely Rejected
Few See Tensions Over Religious Differences
Democracy and Religious Freedom
Islam and Contemporary Society
How Do American Muslims Compare?
About the Report

The survey involved a total of more than 38,000 face-to-face interviews in 80-plus languages. It covered Muslims in 39 countries, which are divided into six regions in this report – Southern and Eastern Europe (Russia and the Balkans), Central Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Middle East and North Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa.
 
There's a difference between how religious people act in secular states to how they do in religious ones.

Why do you think that is?

Also, why do you think there is such extreme variance between individual states in the pew research paper that you posted?
 
Why do you think that is?

Also, why do you think there is such extreme variance between individual states in the pew research paper that you posted?
Because religion is more prevalent there, as opposed to clear, logical, criticisms of batshit crazy books written thousands of years ago.

For what it's worth, the extreme variance is cultural, one of the things in that poll was about how many people follow the religion fundamentally, and in the countries opposed to the death penalty, many didn't follow the laws of Islam very closely.
 
He said it and backed it up with the poll. He didn't refuse to give and just say he saw it on the internet, he posted it because people demanded evidence. As has been said, opinion polls are used all the time with a small sample and then the results extrapolated. He's admitted it's shortcomings but you're still attacking him as if he's arguing it's validity. It's also been pointed out that there could well be more than 36%.

Then he shouldn't say 36% of British Muslims. It's just not true. It's that simple.

The only reason I carried on with it is because posts were being quoted, it's something I do often, I carry on with something until it's run into the ground. It's a personal fault I have and I apologize for it. It's dragged this issue on for a few pages when it shouldn't have. I'm pretty shit at saying what I mean in as few words as possible, so sorry for that. Pretty much every post I've made has essentially stemmed from this;

The whole point of an opinion poll is to get a representative sample (insofar as this is possible) in order to make a judgement about the majority.

IMO it's absurd to even entertain the idea that 0.0130625% is representative enough to make a judgement about the majority. If anyone truly believes that it is, then they'd have to concede my point about finding 8 Caf posters since it directly scales. Yet it was laughed off. (Infact the actual number would be 7.3 but I'll round it up instead of down.)
 
Exactly, which is why I'm arguing that polling 209 people and then saying that 576,000 people share that view is bullshit. There's nothing wrong with polling 209 people, it's the part where you then claim that 576,000 people think something. If you claimed that 72 people out of 209 believed something then suddenly it changes and all I can suspect is that the reason you won't acknowledge it is because it makes your point look a hell of a lot less valid. Since 209 people do not make up 36% of British Muslims, then you simply cannot claim that 36% of British Muslims believe something. It's simple English.

You don't quite seem to get the concept of what an opinion poll is. And I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I'm going to actually read the whole thing. I'm genuinely interested in this topic. I just take issue with twisting English to make a claim that you can't possible make, because the work required to reach that conclusion is way too high, but instead of making a claim that you can make, going ahead with the one you can't anyway.

I didn't make any claims about British Muslims. I merely linked to a poll that got some very sinister results, and that suggested that this isn't merely a problem in Islamic countries.
 
IMO it's absurd to even entertain the idea that 0.0130625% is representative enough to make a judgement about the majority.

- Once again, why do you think that election pollsters are able to predict elections with such accuracy? Do you think they poll the entire fecking country? Do you think they do it for fun? No, they get a REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE of the population. It works, if it's done right.

If anyone truly believes that it is, then they'd have to concede my point about finding 8 Caf posters since it directly scales. Yet it was laughed off. (Infact the actual number would be 7.3 but I'll round it up instead of down.)
- Erm, no, that's not how it works. You can't "scale it" like that.
 
You don't quite seem to get the concept of what an opinion poll is. And I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I understand exactly what an opinion poll is. What I'm saying, is what it then tries to claim is wrong. Extrapolation is an estimation and you simply cannot make a concrete claim based on an estimation. Simply because you are guessing.
 
- Erm, no, that's not how it works. You can't "scale it" like that.

If I'm wrong on this, then please explain it to me. If it's a bad analogy I'll accept it if you can show me why it doesn't scale it like that. I literally compared the percentage of the poll you quoted to the percentage of RedCafe's registered users so that the sample size would be the same.
 
If I'm wrong on this, then please explain it to me. If it's a bad analogy I'll accept it if you can show me why it doesn't scale it like that. I literally compared the percentage of the poll you quoted to the percentage of RedCafe's registered users so that the sample size would be the same.

1000 people, for example, will in some cases be enough whether the population is 1 million, 10 million or 100 million, so long as it's a representative sample of the population. What constitutes a representative sample depends on many variables, but 7 people is obviously never going to be representative of a forum of many tens of thousands of members.

And as I said, 208 people is not much either, and it only works as an indication. The actual number might be lower, and it might be higher. Their sample might've consisted of people with more fundamentalist views than the general population, or less. The challenge is to find a group of people whose views are proportional to the general population. And there's always a margin or error.

But I'm inclined to agree with you, I don't think that the number of young British Muslims who support death penalty for apostasy is as high as 36% (and in any case, when it comes to religion, there's often a gulf between what people profess to believe, and what they actually believe). But to me it's not as unthinkable as it seems to be to you; I've seen too many polls with similar results.
 
Uh huh... so in other words, not the majority of Muslims.

'Many thousands' as if this figure is in any way significant or representative of the majority of Muslims.

Also your '36% of young British Muslims'



:lol:

What you mean to say is, the majority of the small percentage of Muslims that were interviewed. Not the majority of Muslims.

You can't just casually drop that line. I can't go and ask 200 people something, and then say the majority of millions all think the same thing. It's absolute bullshit. It's the majority of the people I asked, which make up a relatively small part of the total pool, and whose answers could be influenced by any number of aspects such as location, education etc.

If you want to use a statement as bold as that, you need an actual factual source to back it up. Not the word of 200 people.

Exactly, which is why I'm arguing that polling 209 people and then saying that 576,000 people share that view is bullshit. There's nothing wrong with polling 209 people, it's the part where you then claim that 576,000 people think something. If you claimed that 72 people out of 209 believed something then suddenly it changes and all I can suspect is that the reason you won't acknowledge it is because it makes your point look a hell of a lot less valid. Since 209 people do not make up 36% of British Muslims, then you simply cannot claim that 36% of British Muslims believe something. It's simple English.



I'm going to actually read the whole thing. I'm genuinely interested in this topic. I just take issue with twisting English to make a claim that you can't possible make, because the work required to reach that conclusion is way too high, but instead of making a claim that you can make, going ahead with the one you can't anyway.

I don't think you understand how polling works. Looking at their methodology here, they sampled 1000 Egyptian Muslims. They also used a "multi-stage cluster sample stratified by all four regions proportional to population size and urban/rural population". Using this calculator, you can get data for Egypt's 80 million Muslims (as wikipedia tells me). With a 5% margin of error and a 99% confidence level, you only need to sample 664 people. This would mean that if the actual number of Egyptian Muslims who feel a certain way is X, then 99/100 times the polling will be within X +/- 5.
 
I don't think you understand how polling works. Looking at their methodology here, they sampled 1000 Egyptian Muslims. They also used a "multi-stage cluster sample stratified by all four regions proportional to population size and urban/rural population". Using this calculator, you can get data for Egypt's 80 million Muslims (as wikipedia tells me). With a 5% margin of error and a 99% confidence level, you only need to sample 664 people. This would mean that if the actual number of Egyptian Muslims who feel a certain way is X, then 99/100 times the polling will be within X +/- 5.

No, I understand exactly how polling works.

The entire issue I've taken here is that the very nature of polling involves estimating and guessing. Which in turn means you can't make a solid claim such as 36% of British Muslims believe this.

Look at an advert for example for any product currently sold. They say 95% of the people we asked, agree this is awesome. They don't say 95% of people say this is awesome. Because they're not allowed to, because it's illegal and misleading to do so. That's my entire issue with the claim that was touted. The fact that opinion polls work that way, does not change the fact that the claim at face value, is misleading.

I am completely prepared to accept that there's an issue that in whatever area they polled these 209 people, that 72 of them alarmingly believe in it. It's a worrying figure, in whatever area they polled. What I can't accept however, is that this extends to everybody in the UK.
 
No, I understand exactly how polling works.

The entire issue I've taken here is that the very nature of polling involves estimating and guessing. Which in turn means you can't make a solid claim such as 36% of British Muslims believe this.

Look at an advert for example for any product currently sold. They say 95% of the people we asked, agree this is awesome. They don't say 95% of people say this is awesome. Because they're not allowed to, because it's illegal and misleading to do so. That's my entire issue with the claim that was touted. The fact that opinion polls work that way, does not change the fact that the claim at face value, is misleading.

I am completely prepared to accept that there's an issue that in whatever area they polled these 209 people, that 72 of them alarmingly believe in it. It's a worrying figure, in whatever area they polled. What I can't accept however, is that this extends to everybody in the UK.

So it's not that you don't understand how they work, you just don't agree with the accepted scientific standard. If you don't understand the math behind it, that's fine but it's no more invalid than equations that predict the weather or the amount of stress a bridge can take before it gives way or the proper way to fly a commercial airplane.

Whether you accept it or not, a properly performed sample at the appropriate amount DOES extend to the entire population.
 
There has been some discussion in the blogosphere relating to the extent to which Grand Mufti of Egypt has said anything particularly new when he declared:

The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,” [Quran, 109:6], and, “Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,” [Quran, 18:29], and, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,” [Quran, 2:256].

These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious perspective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment. If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society. Otherwise, the matter is left until the Day of Judgment, and it is not to be dealt with in the life of this world. It is an issue of conscience, and it is between the individual and God. In the life of this world, “There is no compulsion in religion,” in the life of this world, “Unto you your religion and unto me my religion,” and in the life of this world, “He who wills believes and he who wills disbelieves,” while bearing in mind that God will punish this sin on the Day of Judgment, unless it is combined with an attempt to undermine the stability of the society, in which case it is the society that holds them to account, not Islam.

All religions have doctrinal points that define what it is to be an adherent of that religion. These are divine injunctions that form the basis of every religion, but they are not a means for imposing a certain system of belief on others by force. According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.

In some cases, this sin of the individual may also represent a greater break with the commonly held values of a society in an attempt to undermine its foundations or even attack its citizenry. Depending on the circumstances, this may reach the level of a crime of sedition against one’s society. Penalizing this sedition may be at odds with some conceptions of freedom that would go so far as to ensure people the freedom to destroy the society in which they live. This is a freedom that we do not allow since preservation of the society takes precedence over personal freedoms. This was the basis of the Islamic perspective on apostasy when committed at certain times and under certain circumstances.

From my limited understanding of Islamic jurisprudence, this is not an innovation. Conservative religious scholars do not tend to innovate. Islamic jurisprudence has long been divided on whether apostasy is better understood as a form of sedition. The logic is that, by changing your religion, you fundamentally undermine the authority of the state as a "muslim" state. Goma has in any case denied that he said that muslims could change their faith without punishment:

"What I actually said is that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and that apostasy is a crime, which must be punished," Goma’a said.

Ho hum.

Nevertheless, there is a wider point to be made here, and I have made it as a contribution to the discussion of the issue in Khaled Diab’s column at CiF.

As far as I am concerned, what a particular religion requires is no more and no less than what those who identify as its adherents say it requires.

Therefore, if Gomaa (and others) say that there should be no religious penalty for changing or abandoning the muslim religion, then that is what it means for them.

We need to be very clear that apostasy is neither a crime per se, nor a form of sedition. It should not be punished by law at all. Anybody who argues otherwise is not a liberal or progressive. They are a form of clerical fascist.

Clearly, there are some muslims who will disagree. To the extent that they are able to control or influence the content of a State’s laws or the actions of its officials, they need to be resisted.

Secularists oppose the enactment of religious law, and the privileging of religious institutions over democratic ones. Secularists are not athiests, although some may not believe in god. Many religious people are secularists, because they do not believe that the state has the authority to impose divine will, and because they believe that an open society which respects human rights is better than an authoritarian one.

What is needed, therefore, is a coalition of people of different faiths, and no faiths, to oppose attempts to enact laws which offend against basic democratic requirements, or universally recognised human rights norms.

So, how do we go about ensuring that religious law is not enacted.

One thing which could help is if liberals and progressives, muslim and non muslim, around the world, gave their support to muslim secularists, liberals and progressives.

We should not be backing, or allying with, groups which seek to establish or maintain a state which is not a secular one.

We should be asking those with whom we make common cause to make it very clear that they support basic human rights requirements and universally recognised human rights norms.

We should judge their sincerity by seeing whether they oppose the creation of, and human rights abuses occasioned by, states which enforce - or claim to enforce - religious laws which conflict with those human rights norms.

http://www.tariqramadan.com/spip.php?article1163#forum68578