Religion, what's the point?

[Saliph]

Its the same old shite - people havin no respect for others beliefs

- You're right. I have absolutely zero respect for beliefs that people hold that they can't defend rationally, or produce any evidence for. Especially when it flies in the face of scientific facts.

even considering that more people in the world believe in God than those who do not!

- So? Also worth pointing out, as Silva did, that they believe in mutually exclusive god(s) and religions.

I think its pretty lame to use the old Santa crap aswell.

- You might think it's "lame" and "old", but the analogy hasn't stopped being valid.

Are these the same people that go around tellin kids that there's no such thing as Santa?

- Are you comparing yourself to a kid who believes in Santa?

If kids choose to believe in Santa thats a wonderful thing & makes Christmas all the more special for them.

- Perhaps, but if this belief persists into adulthood they and their kids might find themselves very disappointed on Christmas Eve. Beliefs have consequences.

I believe in God & that one day i will be reunited with loved ones when i die - that to me is a very wonderful thing & very comforting to older people also...

- I don't care what you need to convince yourself of in order to get through your day, as long as you keep it to yourself, and it doesn't influence any of your behavior that might also affect me (like, for example, voting). And just because something is comforting or nice doesn't make it true.

 

[Wibble]

Listen man you're wastin your time, this subject has been ragin on here for feck knows how long - as long as the cafe originated in 1999 i'd hazard a guess, so there's no point fighting it.

Its the same old shite - people havin no respect for others beliefs, even considering that more people in the world believe in God than those who do not!

I think its pretty lame to use the old Santa crap aswell. Are these the same people that go around tellin kids that there's no such thing as Santa?

If kids choose to believe in Santa thats a wonderful thing & makes Christmas all the more special for them. People who quietly believe in God find alot of comfort in doin so, its called having faith & its a personal choice u retain when u get older & away from the childhood brain-washing that went on!

I believe in God & that one day i will be reunited with loved ones when i die - that to me is a very wonderful thing & very comforting to older people also...

Things that provide comfort aren't neccesarily a good idea. And nobody (the religious aside) are talking about taking choice away. Including my choice to call bullshit when religion influences my life, particularly adversely.

We shelter kids from lots of the realities of life (often incorrectly) but what has that got to do with adults? There is enough wonder in the world without needing to invent stuff. As a cleverer man than I once said "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

 

[Goooose]

I respect the right for people to have beliefs, but I don't have to respect their beliefs, especially when those beliefs border on delusion.

 

[Raoul]

Listen man you're wastin your time, this subject has been ragin on here for feck knows how long - as long as the cafe originated in 1999 i'd hazard a guess, so there's no point fighting it.

Its the same old shite - people havin no respect for others beliefs, even considering that more people in the world believe in God than those who do not!

I think its pretty lame to use the old Santa crap aswell. Are these the same people that go around tellin kids that there's no such thing as Santa?

If kids choose to believe in Santa thats a wonderful thing & makes Christmas all the more special for them. People who quietly believe in God find alot of comfort in doin so, its called having faith & its a personal choice u retain when u get older & away from the childhood brain-washing that went on!

I believe in God & that one day i will be reunited with loved ones when i die - that to me is a very wonderful thing & very comforting to older people also...

In the past you could say such a thing and not be challenged, but that's not the case any more. People in the age of the internet and social media, spend a lot of time challenging one another's ideas, and Religion isn't exempted from that - and I get the impression that's a good thing. All ideas deserve a degree of critical analysis so that we can collectively understand whether they are solid or whether they may need to be revised - and again - Religion shouldn't be exempted from that.

 

[utdalltheway]

In the past you could say such a thing and not be challenged, but that's not the case any more. People in the age of the internet and social media, spend a lot of time challenging one another's ideas, and Religion isn't exempted from that - and I get the impression that's a good thing. All ideas deserve a degree of critical analysis so that we can collectively understand whether they are solid or whether they may need to be revised - and again - Religion shouldn't be exempted from that.

agreed with all of that. I do worry that some religions are off limits to the same levels of scrutiny. thinking of islam and judaism now.

 

[Red Dreams]

In the past you could say such a thing and not be challenged, but that's not the case any more. People in the age of the internet and social media, spend a lot of time challenging one another's ideas, and Religion isn't exempted from that - and I get the impression that's a good thing. All ideas deserve a degree of critical analysis so that we can collectively understand whether they are solid or whether they may need to be revised - and again - Religion shouldn't be exempted from that.

I agree Raoul. Although I hope to see my parents again, I can respect the fact many don't believe there is an afterlife. I can accept their honest beliefs. What I don't like to see is Christians who say that anyone who does not believe in Jesus is going to hell.

Christ was about love and bringing all people together.

 

[Red Dreams]

agreed with all of that. I do worry that some religions are off limits to the same levels of scrutiny. thinking of islam and judaism now.

..especially Islam. Think it is because most believers in that faith take any scrutiny to be an insult to their faith.

But a respectful discussion can only help others understand the faith more.

 

[Theon]

- Of course, because you've been brought up in a culture that's taught you that religion deserves special protection from criticism, and that religious beliefs are somehow fundamentally different than other beliefs.

As for offending the religious, I don't mind in the slightest. People should be called out on their fallacious thinking and their stupidity, and I make no apologies for being honest; it's certainly better than nodding patronizingly along.


- Hah, well, Christianity is self-evidently false. There have been literally thousands of different religions throughout history, Christianity is not special in that regard, and the evidence for the truthfulness of its doctrine is certainly no better than any of the others.

Christianity "has genuine support for being true"? Elaborate, please.

Your attempt to distinguish my Santa analogy is simply ludicrous. It holds up just fine.

Religious beliefs are different to other beliefs due to its significance and personal nature. Dismissing or belittling these is going to cause more offence than virtually any other potential belief, so unsurprisingly people view it as deserving of more respect.

It is also important to differentiate between reasonable criticism and just being intentionally offensive.

People should be called out on their fallacious thinking and their stupidity

This for example serves no purpose but to deliberately offend. It’s not clever and isn’t conducive to proper debate.

Before going on to the Santa analogy - How is Christianity self-evidently false? Elaborate, please.

The distinction is that Santa is accepted to not exist and nobody proposes that he does, whereas God is the complete opposite. So for instance in the bible it makes categorical statements that God exists. Whether you choose to believe them is your prerogative, but regardless of whether you do there is an account which clearly states that he does – the same is not true for Santa. There are no comparable writings or teachings that even suppose to suggest he is real.

You can accurately trace the history of Santa from being a dead saint with a typical feast day like any other, to the modern interpretations we have now. You can trace the images of him which are initially religious and similar to any other saint, but become increasingly festive and end up as the current fat man in a red suit. A lot of the modern characteristics originate from Moore’s poem which is acknowledged fiction.

The fundamental point is that you are comparing believing in something which is accepted to be made up by those who formed it, with something that is proposed as being true by those who did. It’s an insane analogy.

 

[Silva]

Are you honestly going down the route of "because the bible says so, it must be true"? The bible also says that the world was created in 6 fecking days. If you (religious people, not you specifically as you said you're not religious) want to pick and choose which sections of the bible are real, then there's literally no point in debating it. The bible is proof of nothing but the fact that people 1500-4000 years were stupid as feck. I imagine in the year 4000 they will say similar things about how we behaved and what we believed.

agreed with all of that. I do worry that some religions are off limits to the same levels of scrutiny. thinking of islam and judaism now.

All the criticisms to Jebus' religion also apply to the other ones, it's just that being on a Manchester United forum made up largely of westerners the one most people will be familiar with is the one which will be looked at with the most detail.

 

[Theon]

Are you honestly going down the route of "because the bible says so, it must be true"? The bible also says that the world was created in 6 fecking days. If you (religious people, not you specifically as you said you're not religious) want to pick and choose which sections of the bible are real, then there's literally no point in debating it. The bible is proof of nothing but the fact that people 1500-4000 years were stupid as feck. I imagine in the year 4000 they will say similar things about how we behaved and what we believed.

No, you're missing the point.

I'm not making any comment on the evidence for religion or the historical accuracy of the bible. The point is that there is a difference between something which is proposed as being true and something which is proposed as being a lie or fictional.

It's clearly more ridiculous to believe in something which is admitted as being made up, than something which is proposed as being true - regardless of the evidence for either. This isn't even contentious.

 

[Silva]

In that case, why do people choose to believe the Bible over the Torah or the Quran? They're continuations of the same god afterall. Why should we take any of them seriously if they can't agree among themselves which one is the correct version?

Hell, look at Mormonism, that's quite clearly made up, why is that any different to the other religions?

If the only difference between the religions and Santa is that no one is willing to admit religion is made up, that does not constitute as a reason to take it seriously. Nor is it enough of a reason to respect those views.

 

[Theon]

In that case, why do people choose to believe the bible over the Torah or the Quran? They're continuations of the same god afterall. Why should we take any of them seriously if they can't agree among themselves which one is the correct version?

Hell, look at Mormonism, that's quite clearly made up, why is that any different to the other religions?

If the only difference between the religions and Santa is that no one is willing to admit religion is made up, that does not constitute as a reason to take it seriously. Nor is it enough of a reason to respect those views.

No idea why you've strayed so far from what I have been talking about in the first two paragraphs.

On the third, I already briefly suggested why you should respect peoples religious views. I could go into more detail and write a long winded response but I don't think its complicated, personally. There is nothing wrong with reasonable debate and it's an interesting topic to discuss so it should be encouraged. But being deliberately antagonising is pointless and only going to offend people.

There is also the fact that you don't know the truth about religion. So you shoudn't be so ardent in your criticism over something that remains uncertain.

 

[Silva]

The history of the religions has been written about extensively, from the start when we worshiped the sun to its constant evolution into different things. To say that it's uncertain is quite strange.

I understood your point, that's why I gave you a more apt example than Santa.

 

[Silva]

I also find the fact that there are currently people claiming to be Jesus quite funny. It's a real sweet icing on the loony cake. By the way, none of them will tell you they're not really Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus#20th_century

 

[MrMojo]

I agree Raoul. Although I hope to see my parents again, I can respect the fact many don't believe there is an afterlife. I can accept their honest beliefs. What I don't like to see is Christians who say that anyone who does not believe in Jesus is going to hell.

Christ was about love and bringing all people together.

What about the bit in Luke where he says bring all those who don't wish to follow (unbelievers) and slay them before me.

I'm now convinced that most moderately religious people have read less than 50% of their holy scripture. There is no other rational explanation for how they misrepresent what's there in black and white.

 

[The Neviller]

This thread is pretty much just a collection of cnuts telling people what they should and shouldn't believe. Seriously, atheists, why does it bother you if people want to believe in a God? It doesn't affect your belief that their isn't?

Can you not just let them get on with it? At the end of the day, one side will be right and the other will be wrong, but by the time we all find out it'll not matter because we'll be dead and either in an afterlife we can't then change, or just dead and that's it.

Just live your life and let others live theirs. Oh, and stop being such a bunch of arrogant cnuts.

 

[Silva]

Like I said on the last page, the live and let live philosophy doesn't apply when it's religious groups that systematically discriminate against others. Most recently in the UK their attempt to block gay marriage. In the middle east women are still second class citizens because of religion. Live and let live does not, and has never, applied to the various religions. Someone was just decapitated in broad daylight in the middle of London because someone thought Allah would like it. No gives a flying feck if you believe in jesus or the flying spaghetti monster, however, as long as people are religious, their influence will be bad on the world. All because they believe that a bearded man will shower them with salvation for all of fecking eternity.

 

[MrMojo]

This thread is pretty much just a collection of cnuts telling people what they should and shouldn't believe. Seriously, atheists, why does it bother you if people want to believe in a God? It doesn't affect your belief that their isn't?

Can you not just let them get on with it? At the end of the day, one side will be right and the other will be wrong, but by the time we all find out it'll not matter because we'll be dead and either in an afterlife we can't then change, or just dead and that's it.

Just live your life and let others live theirs. Oh, and stop being such a bunch of arrogant cnuts.

Murder, torture, persecution, all things that we generally fight against. When these things are caused by religion why would we just let them get on with it.

You've confused arrogance with logic and evidence.

 

[The Neviller]

Murder, torture, persecution, all things that we generally fight against. When these things are caused by religion why would we just let them get on with it.

You've confused arrogance with logic and evidence.

Nah it's arrogance. But then, you bring it to every thread you post it so i'm not surprised you don't notice the difference.

Not all religious people do those things, so yeah, let them get on with having their belief and you fire away having yours. I'm far from religious, but reading this thread it's pretty clear to see who the cnuts are in this argument. And it (mostly) isn't the religious ones.

Not all atheists are cnuts, but the majority of you do your best to portray things that way.

 

[Silva]

There is no issue with people thinking what they do, but that doesn't mean I have to like those thoughts. Also, even if religious people don't do those things, they still pay money to the churches and mosques and various other institutions that do. Not every catholic might hate the gays, but everyone who goes to church and donates money is financially supporting an institution that does its hardest to promote homophobia. How is that not a problem?

 

[Eyepopper]

Politics (and arguably oil) cause far more of those than religion does, do you go around lecturing those as well?

I doubt any of the religious people here have caused any wars or engaged in any torture.

There's a huge amount of arrogance attached to a lot of debate by atheists, as if those who are religious are idiots for ignoring scientific evidence, this thread states in the title that 'all religion is bollocks' if that's not arrogant I don't know what is, it's also blatantly not true.

I'd call myself an atheist but if you can't admit that, despite the notion of a man in the sky somewhere, parts of religion have a huge amount to offer to humanity and society, then i'd say you're as blinded by bias as the most religious of people.

The hijacking of religion to use as a tool to manipulate people is certainly a problem but a slightly different issue.

Democratic, western countries have and do killed, tortured and persecuted hundreds of thousands of people under the banner of freedom. Does that mean that democracy and freedom are complete bollocks too?

 

[Silva]

Everything about humanity predates religion. All religion has ever done is come along and say "*insert existing thinking*... Oh and by the way, this is the one true god(s)"

 

[The Neviller]

Not everyone donates money either. Is this what the argument has come down to?

"Well, they kill people". "No they don't"

"Well, maybe not, but they donate money to their church and their church does it". "Yeah, that doesn't happen either".

It's the arrogant nature of the majority of atheists that's laughable. "I know there is no God". No you don't, you believe there isn't. You can no more prove a Gods lack of existence than a religious guy can prove a Gods existence. You believe there is no God, just as they believe there is. So, feck off with your belief and let them feck off with theirs.

When will people realise that this thread and every argument in it is just complete bollocks?

 

[Silva]

I don't really care about the ones who don't support religions. If you have your own personal beliefs and that has no influence my life, either through your voting or the people you supporting financially then it's fine. You're still wrong, but in a way that actually has no effect on my life and that's fecking fantastic. I just really hate that religion hijacks everything and leaves with a 2000 year old view of morality which is unhelpful in the modern world.

 

[The Neviller]

I don't really care about the ones who don't support religions. If you have your own personal beliefs and that has no influence my life, either through your voting or the people you supporting financially then it's fine. You're still wrong, but in a way that actually has no effect on my life and that's fecking fantastic. I just really hate that religion hijacks everything and leaves with a 2000 year old view of morality which is unhelpful in the modern world.

What influence does a man going to church, throwing a tenner in a collection box and doing something he believes in have on your life? Other than give you something to be a cnut about.

Bold, way to prove atheists ain't arrogant, yo.

 

[Silva]

Like I said, in the UK the churches are vehemently campaigning against gay marriage. I know that not all Catholics are against gay marriage, but as long as they go to church and give that tenner away, along with all the millions of other tenners, it will contribute, however little, to things which have no place in the twenty first century. Certainly no place in a secular society. Members of parliament still take the Catholic whip. That is wrong, a 1500 year old book is under no circumstance be used as the moral basis for modern society.

 

[The Neviller]

Like I said, in the UK the churches are vehemently campaigning against gay marriage. I know that not all Catholics are against gay marriage, but as long as they go to church and give that tenner away, along with all the millions of other tenners, it will contribute, however little, to things which have no place in the twenty first century. Certainly no place in a secular society.

So the issue you have is that, because of religion you can't have a gay marriage then? And you really, really want a gay marriage?

 

[Silva]

And the subjugation of women in the middle east. And the people being slaughtered everyday in the name of religion. Honor rapes, honor killings, theocracies which still use slave labor. The list goes on and on, gay marriage is just a topical example of something happening in the parliament that runs the UK.

Another example in the UK, the churches always fight all attempts to improve sex education of young people, despite soaring teenage pregnancy rates.

 

[The Neviller]

And all people who go to Church are guilty of these acts, or in allowing them to happen, right?

 

[Silva]

That's right. If I gave a fiver to the IRA, it would be ridiculous of me to say "Well, I didn't buy that bomb myself so.."

 

[Commadus]

It boils down to each person - atheist or religious feeling they are right. To be honest the vast majority be they atheist, religious, agnostic or whatever dont hold their beliefs in such high esteem as many make out - their concerns are real world concerns - earning money, looking after the people they love etc.

 

[The Neviller]

Do you drive (or use any form of transport other than walking), wear clothes or purchase any consumer products whatsoever?

 

[Commadus]

And the subjugation of women in the middle east. And the people being slaughtered everyday in the name of religion. Honor rapes, honor killings, theocracies which still use slave labor. The list goes on and on, gay marriage is just a topical example of something happening in the parliament that runs the UK.

Another example in the UK, the churches always fight all attempts to improve sex education of young people, despite soaring teenage pregnancy rates.

Theres subjugation of women in India, china etc but it seems you want to pick a particular area?

Slave labour is used by Democracies in the Indian sub continent where capitalism rules!

The link between subjugation, slave labour is stronger with that of developing nations than religion.

 

[Silva]

... What does that have to do with anything? Corporations are evil because they're money making giants and the law, unfortunately (and it shouldn't), allows them to be. Religions are ideologically evil.

 

[Silva]

Theres subjugation of women in India, china etc but it seems you want to pick a particular area?

Slave labour is used by Democracies in the Indian sub continent where capitalism rules!

The link between subjugation, slave labour is stronger with that of developing nations than religion.

Religions also treat women unfairly in the first world.

Alright, fair point on the slave labor.

 

[The Neviller]

Silva, I hope to God (whether he exists or not) that you don't drive, don't use any type of oil for heating or whilst sitting on public transport, fashion all your own clothes, cultivate all your own food and refuse to buy any consumer products whatsoever or you're a massive cnut who is directly leading to the murder of people in developing countries, you're directly supporting and helping to cause wars all around the world in the name of oil procurement, and directly supporting the slave labour trade.

I hope God can forgive your sorry soul.

 

[Shark]

Why is it always atheists that get the 'arrogant' label? Perhaps it's because the same arrogance and smugness has so long been standard in religion that people don't see it anymore.

 

[Silva]

Religious people are incredibly smug, my RE teacher is still certain I'm going to hell.

 

[Silva]

Silva, I hope to God (whether he exists or not) that you don't drive, don't use any type of oil for heating or whilst sitting on public transport, fashion all your own clothes, cultivate all your own food and refuse to buy any consumer products whatsoever or you're a massive cnut who is directly leading to the murder of people in developing countries, you're directly supporting and helping to cause wars all around the world in the name of oil procurement, and directly supporting the slave labour trade.

I hope God can forgive your sorry soul.

... What does that have to do with anything? Corporations are evil because they're money making giants and the law, unfortunately (and it shouldn't), allows them to be. Religions are ideologically evil.

...

Yes, those companies are also evil. I would love nothing more than proper regulation.

 

[The Neviller]

Why is it always atheists that get the 'arrogant' label? Perhaps it's because the same arrogance and smugness has so long been standard in religion that people don't see it anymore.

Comments like "you're wrong" "you're stupid" "all religion is bollocks" "There is no God, I know there isn't" etc etc often lend themselves to the accusation of arrogance.

The majority of believers in this thread state their belief. The atheists don't just state their disbelief, they smash the believers over the head with a science book, tell them they're stupid and wrong, and make fun of them.