In what sense am I religious person?
No, just that the less people that believe in religion the better the world will be. I don't think it's a coincidence that countries with a higher standard of living also have fewer religious people.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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I say this based on my short history on this site. Many of the religious debates do not end well.
So if someone were to come in here (Sultan/ Red Dreams, whoever) with the sole intention of making you all into theists, I personally don't think that would end in the most pleasant of exchanges.
I love debating. And I completely agree with you. However, this wouldn't be debating something for the sake of it. It would be coming on here to talk about something which will inevitably end up aggravating people.
I didn't come on here to change peoples' minds. I pop into this thread to have a read because I find it interesting. And then I saw Rednev's post and wanted to ask him a question, about exactly how he saw a theist coming onto here trying to convince you to change religion playing out.
Again, what on earth does this have to do with someone who believes in God specifically coming onto this thread to convince Rednev to join their religion, which was the original point?
He might convince them religion is bollocks, which is always a good thing.
Well this one is 30 pages and all I see is intelligent, considered debate on both sides of the argument.
If you don't like debating things that aggravate people you made a poor choice in deciding to talk about football, I think you'll agree there's much more argument in the FF than here.
Essentially, being on an Internet debating forum and asking others to stop debating is a bit stupid.
Silva...I say you are as 'religious' as those on the other side of the debate. Do you have an open mind? You are convinced Religion is all bollocks. Thats fine.
My belief is we can all respect each other. 'Live and let live'. I have not met any nasty people on here...though we all have got our nickers in a twist now and then...no different than being in a pub.
no one is going to convince anyone else. just banter imo.
My belief is we can all respect each other. 'Live and let live'. I have not met any nasty people on here...though we all have got our nickers in a twist now and then...no different than being in a pub.
no one is going to convince anyone else. just banter imo.
So a) we come down to the likely real message behind Rednev's question and
b) How many people, especially people from the West who are likely to have come into contact with all of the various religious theories regarding the existence of God or not, do you think have changed their religious beliefs due to a debate on Redcafe? Or an any football forum?
Dear god, I'm not asking anyone to stop debating.
This is probably why people don't come in here and try to convince the regulars that their god is real. I come on here to try to argue that doing so will most likely lead to silly arguments in which no-one's views is changed and I have multiple people effectively telling me I'm talking nonsense.
I welcome anyone to come on here to talk about their religion or their lack of it. As I said, I read this thread quite often because I find it very interesting. Whether its a conversation between atheists or atheists and theists, it brings up some great points. Coming on here specifically to try to prove to people that their God is real though? Who's that going to convince? Continuing on with the football you keep on bringing up, it would have been like me coming on here and trying to convince you all that Spurs is the best team to follow.
Reading this thread relatively regularly, my impression of it has been that its mostly atheists/ agnostics discussing atheism, posting links etc to each other etc, rather than 30 pages of debate between atheists and theists.
If someone has an argument and evidence that proves what I think wrong, I will happily change my opinion.
Live and let live is fine, but how many of the religious institutions actually follow that mantra? And the only reason they have influence is because of the millions of people supporting them.
That's hardly the point, this thread isn't going to change the world, it's only ever going to be read by a few people at a time.
if there was evidence one way or another, there wont be this debate. As I said, I can have a reasonable debate with those who refute God than with an 'in your face' christian. I agree that religious institutions have their agenda. More and more people who actually believe in God don't like religious institutions...and I don't blame them. I go to church because it fulfills my need even if I sometimes disagree with the priest.
I disagree, I think this is a great thread. I hope people continue posting in it. And I hope theists do come in every once in a while to present some kind of alternate view, to stop this thread becoming a huge back patting exercise.
But for me, this isn't the same as coming into the thread with the explicit purpose of trying to convert avowed atheists, some of whom were already raised religious and have left their faiths.
General debate about religion, the meaning of God etc etc. Great.
Specifically coming on here trying to convert? I don't think that's the same at all. Perhaps I'm wrong though and it would be the most pleasant conversation ever held on the Caf.
Yeah you have.
Every single argument on this entire forum is pointless by your definition. Do you really think your posts on Spurs are going to change anybody else's opinion. Do you think debating Bale's transfer fee for three weeks will have any bearing on Daniel Levy's decision? Do you think what you're saying right now is going to have any effect?
By your own definition, your posts are pointless, so what's the point of making them?
There's a lot of evidence against the Abrahamic god. First and foremost the problem of evil, how can an all powerful, all loving god exist alongside suffering? The free will argument doesn't really work, as you have to prove free will exists in the place, and even if it did much of human suffering is beyond human control. People born with debilitating diseases for example. And the droughts in Africa which lead to so many people living in famine. All those natural occurrences that kill people every year. An all loving, all powerful god wouldn't let this happen.
Is global climate change the will of God? Can we prevent starvation on this earth? Is disease God's fault? We do have free will. Much of what happens is directly related to decisions made by humans.
You will not accept it. But the life on this earth is very temporary. The real life..or death is yet to come.
I just don't think everything ends when we die. I honestly think I will see the people I loved who went before me. To see my parents again...those I lived with and loved in this life.
As for faith...I've felt Him in my life. It works for me. I feel Him when I pray. I can hear him in my heart.
I believe.
As for faith...I've felt Him in my life. It works for me. I feel Him when I pray. I can hear him in my heart.
I believe.
People born with debilitating diseases then, how is that the fault of humans?
And we don't have free will, everything we do has a cause, your response to me as a result of my last post, this post is as a result of your post.
And what are you basing this real life on? A book put together hundreds of years after the death of Jesus?
I feel as though a monster will eat my feet if they hang off the bed, that doesn't make the monster real.
I came on the caf to wind up Man Utd supporters. I found that it deepened my understanding of football, was a a bit of fun and more surprisingly encouraged me to read a few books on anthropology a subject I'd never spent a minute's thought on before.
When you 'pray' you psychologically take the stress from yourself and give it elsewhere, That's about it.
Human beings are not perfect organisms. Some are healthy..others are not. We have the will to do good and evil...that is what I am saying. We can choose to be selfish...or be part of the global community.
hmmm. not sure if I can debate the authenticity of the bible with you. I am not a scholar in that sense. Others will be more qualified. I can say that many times....the doubts in my heart have been answered by Jesus. He is here. He is real.
cheaper than seeing a shrink though.
All institutes are corrupt and religion is the first institute and is the only institute that doesn't pay taxes.
I highly recommend watching this if you don't believe in religion, re-enforces your opinion that the God and devil that are branded about these days is nothing more than a joke.
First gospels were written at least 70 years after any possible eye witness period. As for good and evil, can you define it? Morality evolves each generation, who's to say some of what we're doing in this day and age won't been as 'evil' or 'bad' in the future. In fact our concept of bad invariably gets redefined. In Laviticus, not all incestuous relationships were seen as bad, strangely enough an uncle could marry and consummate a relationship with his niece but auntie couldn't with her nephew. Odd really, and very repulsive to modern day humans. And that's before we even talk about mental illnesses and the complex organ that is our brain.
Hang on, the organised religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) are nonsense imo, and I don't believe in any of the Gods as preached by these faiths, but I remain open-minded about the possibility of there being some sort of higher power. I wouldn't class myself as an atheist. But neither am I religious. Non-religious doesn't mean 'atheist' for me.
Is there much a difference between those two things?
Feeling something with all your heart isn't evidence of anything, other than that's how you feel.
In 200 years people will look at 2013 and say 'what a bunch of cnuts' - they had the means to feed people and save them from harm and they did feck all.
Yeah, it wasn't really a deep insight into your personal religious beliefs, you 3 basically just happened to be the last 3 posters I'd seen posting on the thread.
Yeah when my mum died a couple of years ago I spoke aloud how much it hurt in a way I couldn't do to anyone alive. It helped tho' I was quite aware I was speaking to myself.
Lot and his daughters were fair game and all. Incest was cool feck a few generations ago.
As an Arsenal fan I can't believe you have to wait that long.
Theism = religion, belief in a personal god. If you don't believe in a personal god, you're an atheist. As has been pointed out innumerable times, atheism is a word we shouldn't even need, because nobody ever needs to identify themselves as non-astrologers or disbelievers in Santa Claus. But somehow the religious have managed to turn "atheism" into a dirty word. A triumph of propaganda.
yeah. I know about the gospels. They are not 100% in agreement either. Though they agree about the key teachings of Jesus and who he is. As for the Old Testament rules about dos and don'ts...its just that....Rules on how to live by. I don't see that as good and evil though.
Jesus simply said...Love thy Neighbor as Thyself. I recognize evil when I see it.....many examples in history. mental illness? yeah...I can see that many crimes are a result of untreated such illnesses. Actually if we think about it...it must be pretty hard to do something evil. But to do what Christ says is easy...well easy to understand I mean. Its about how far we want to go. I see it as a challenge. 'Be perfect as He is'. In my life...I see many opportunities to answer His call...many not taken....but very satisfying when answered.
excellent stuff..burst out aloud at places. Just 'common sense'...thats why it is funny.
yeah. grief....I don't think I have completely dealt with the loss of my parents...especially so close to each other. Dad ...I mean he was the strongest person I knew...just gave up after mum died....I knew he would not last. Nothing I said made made a difference...but I always think I could have done something....
No I haven't. You do understand the difference between a debate and argument right? In fairness yes, every single argument on this forum is pointless. I think there's a lot more debate and discussion going on than arguments though for the most part and those are far more useful.
I don't know how you lead your life but I don't go around in mine making the main aim of every single thing I say an attempt to change other peoples' minds. Similarly, I didn't sign up here to change peoples' minds about Spurs or Bale or Africa.
I come on here to read and post. Most of my time on here isn't spent trying to convince other people to change to my views, whether on theology, politics or football. Or any other subject for that matter.
I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with me and Bale, as I've already pointed out to you, most of my conversations here do not involve Bale.
No, I don't think what I'm saying right now is going to have any effect. But again, I'm not asking other people to come round to my opinion.
And I'd like to reiterate the difference in my view between what Red Dreams is doing now (great, excellent debate) and what Rednev suggested people do.
BillO Always gets me.
Always gets me.Glad you enjoyed it, you can have a good chuckle with God and Jesus when you enter the pearly gates of Heaven...
Agree. I really appreciate if religious people don't try to make me a theist, because chances that this can happen are almost zero. I also don't try to convince theists to become atheists. A good debate can be in things about religion, like it's influence, or it's history but it is pretty pointless if a religious poster come here and try to educate us atheist about that. Hell, I have read tens of religious books and have read multiple times both Quran and Bible. Chances that someone can change my mind are very slim. Also, these types of debates can easily escalate and at best can end with us having a laugh, and at worst with multiple bans.
Saying that, unless I specifically ask, I don't feel comfortable if someone tries to make me a theist, though depended on the day I can accept it and have a cultured conversation. Unless that person is Buddhist, in which case I will listen to him cause I almost know nothing of that religion, so I would definitely be interested in their point of view.
Is agnosticism the adequate term here? I am not sure, but it could be.
Anyway, I think that the majority of 'atheists' are people who don't believe in a personal God and most importantly don't believe in Abraham God (or Gods of other religions). I don't believe in the Abraham God (be it Yehowa, Jesus or Allah) but that doesn't mean that I am completely sure that there doesn't exist a sort of higher power. I mean, it is impossible to know that. But I clearly don't believe in the Abraham God (or any other definited personal God) and consider myself an atheist.
I find that a lot of people that class themselves as agnostic are actually atheist. I include the me of many years ago in that. All atheism really is is a lack of belief in a higher power, it doesn't categorically rule out the chance of one. If some evidence came up that was compelling, I'd convert.
"But that's not the point, you have to believe!" Yeah yeah, piss off.
"But that's not the point, you have to believe!" Yeah yeah, piss off.