Religion, what's the point?

Silva said:
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Yes, those companies are also evil. I would love nothing more than proper regulation.
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Stop supporting them by buying their products, since that's what you're having a go at religious people for, isn't it? Causing all these wrong doings in the world by supporting something with their money?

Or is that not really your issue with religious people?
 
Religions do it out of ideology though, all dangerous ideologies should be questioned. Corporations do it out of greed, and because of their dominance in the world it's impossible not to occasionally get on a train. Greed can be stopped with proper regulation, ideologies need to be questioned. For what its worth, I do spend as little money as I can on these companies.
 
You can't question an absence of belief. It's like an adult who believes in Santa questioning another...why they don't believe in his existence too.
 
The Neviller said:
Comments like "you're wrong" "you're stupid" "all religion is bollocks" "There is no God, I know there isn't" etc etc often lend themselves to the accusation of arrogance.

The majority of believers in this thread state their belief. The atheists don't just state their disbelief, they smash the believers over the head with a science book, tell them they're stupid and wrong, and make fun of them.
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Making fun of other people's beliefs isn't right, but look at it from an atheists point of view and tell me which seems more arrogant.

Christian: God made the whole world for me, and humans are the center of his attention. Jesus died for us, to save us, because we are God's greatest invention. We will tell the world about Jesus Christ and convert other people by appealing to their emotions, or forcing them to accept our ideology even if we have to use violence. I am not wrong about Jesus because the Bible is unquestionably true.

Atheist: I don't believe any of that, and I don't believe you. And here's why I think you're wrong, and why I don't partake of your delusions (insert argument here).

Who's the arrogant one?
 
Silva said:
Religions do it out of ideology though, all dangerous ideologies should be questioned. Corporations do it out of greed, and because of their dominance in the world it's impossible not to occasionally get on a train. Greed can be stopped with proper regulation, ideologies need to be questioned. For what its worth, I do spend as little money as I can on these companies.
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Capitalism is an ideology its what has lead to the creation of MNC and corporations being a distinct entity in law. Watch the documentary - The Corporation -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(film)

Capitalism at its core is capital accumulation - regulation will not stop that.

Stupid, greedy, vain etc people will always find a justification for their vices and weaknesses.
 
Commadus said:
Capitalism is an ideology its what has lead to the creation of MNC and corporations being a distinct entity in law. Watch the documentary - The Corporation -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(film)

Capitalism at its core is capital accumulation - regulation will not stop that.

Stupid, greedy, vain etc people will always find a justification for their vices and weaknesses.
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Yeah, sorry, brainfart. Capitalism is obviously an ideology which corporations subscribe to. You can regulate markets though, socialism is better anyway.
 
The Neviller said:
Nah it's arrogance. But then, you bring it to every thread you post it so i'm not surprised you don't notice the difference.

Not all religious people do those things, so yeah, let them get on with having their belief and you fire away having yours. I'm far from religious, but reading this thread it's pretty clear to see who the cnuts are in this argument. And it (mostly) isn't the religious ones.

Not all atheists are cnuts, but the majority of you do your best to portray things that way.
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You're a confusing character Neviller, you come into a thread to tell everyone to be nicer but you do this by calling everyone an arrogant cnut.

On the actual subject matter you display a deep lack of understanding. You're misrepresenting the atheist position(we don't say there is definitely no God) and you're congratulating yourself for not criticising an atheists beliefs when that's impossible. Importantly though you have no idea about the role moderate religion plays in the spawning and protection of extremism.

The thread title could be more nuanced but the thread content is actually pretty good, on both sides it's sensible and measured. I'd say do some reading and come back with an argument that's coherent and informed.
 
MrMojo said:
You're a confusing character Neviller, you come into a thread to tell everyone to be nicer but you do this by calling everyone an arrogant cnut.

On the actual subject matter you display a deep lack of understanding. You're misrepresenting the atheist position(we don't say there is definitely no God) and you're congratulating yourself for not criticising an atheists beliefs when that's impossible. Importantly though you have no idea about the role moderate religion plays in the spawning and protection of extremism.

The thread title could be more nuanced but the thread content is actually pretty good, on both sides it's sensible and measured. I'd say do some reading and come back with an argument that's coherent and informed.
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Yeah you do. Well, maybe not you personally, maybe you're a different kind, but the Santa analogy was definitely saying that God doesn't exist.

How isn't it possible? I guess you're going to dazzle me with some article that says Atheism isn't a belief, when writers the world over aren't sure how to define it. Is it a lack of belief in something, or a belief that something doesn't exist? That's open to interpretation, but hey, yours will be the right one, i'm sure.

Way to prove you aren't arrogant, Mojo. I've read enough to know that I don't see the need for people to be ripping others to shit for their beliefs, or mocking them, ridiculing them, telling them they're wrong and stupid. Even in that post you've taken some fecking superiority position, trying to infer that you're so much more intellectual than me. I've no idea if you are, but if so, who gives a feck? You're still a twat talking shit on a football forum like the rest of us. You're just doing it in a more pompous fashion. Well done you.

I didn't call everyone an arrogant cnut, by the way. Just you and the other arrogant cnuts. Some of the atheists in here aren't arrogant cnuts. I did say "most of" and "majority". I assumed an intellectual like yourself would be able to tell the difference between most and all.
 
The Neviller said:
Comments like "you're wrong" "you're stupid" "all religion is bollocks" "There is no God, I know there isn't" etc etc often lend themselves to the accusation of arrogance.

The majority of believers in this thread state their belief. The atheists don't just state their disbelief, they smash the believers over the head with a science book, tell them they're stupid and wrong, and make fun of them.
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Why is religion the only thing you can believe in with no proof and still demand respect?


As for religions just stating their belief? The belief that all non believers are going to hell, that's not arrogant or disrespectful?


Belief in one religion is the most arrogant thing we do as humans in my opinion, and if it's not arrogance then it's just a herd mentality. Religion is not a neutral enough force in my opinion to be just left alone. It has to be examined.
 
The Neviller said:
I guess you're going to dazzle me with some article that says Atheism isn't a belief, when writers the world over aren't sure how to define it. Is it a lack of belief in something, or a belief that something doesn't exist? That's open to interpretation, but hey, yours will be the right one, i'm sure.
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To answer this specifically, what writers are you talking about? Bill O'Riley and his bullshit logic don't count. That atheism is a belief is a myth, it was answered in this thread yesterday, do you define yourself by the things you don't? I assume not. Atheism is a lack of theism, and nothing more.
 
moses said:
Why is religion the only thing you can believe in with no proof and still demand respect?
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Someone who believes in God doesn't demand respect because they believe in God, they demand respect because they have a right to believe in whatever they want to believe, without being ridiculed. Everyone does, irrespective of what they actually believe in.

I couldn't give a flying feck about religion, I just don't see why people need to rip the beliefs of others to shit to strengthen their own. Believe or disbelieve whatever the feck you want or don't want to.
 
The Neviller said:
Yeah you do. Well, maybe not you personally, maybe you're a different kind, but the Santa analogy was definitely saying that God doesn't exist.

How isn't it possible? I guess you're going to dazzle me with some article that says Atheism isn't a belief, when writers the world over aren't sure how to define it. Is it a lack of belief in something, or a belief that something doesn't exist? That's open to interpretation, but hey, yours will be the right one, i'm sure.

Way to prove you aren't arrogant, Mojo. I've read enough to know that I don't see the need for people to be ripping others to shit for their beliefs, or mocking them, ridiculing them, telling them they're wrong and stupid. Even in that post you've taken some fecking superiority position, trying to infer that you're so much more intellectual than me. I've no idea if you are, but if so, who gives a feck? You're still a twat talking shit on a football forum like the rest of us. You're just doing it in a more pompous fashion. Well done you.

I didn't call everyone an arrogant cnut, by the way. Just you and the other arrogant cnuts. Some of the atheists in here aren't arrogant cnuts. I did say "most of" and "majority". I assumed an intellectual like yourself would be able to tell the difference between most and all.
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TN will you please tone down your language in the CE forum? We've been through this before.
 
The Neviller said:
Someone who believes in God doesn't demand respect because they believe in God, they demand respect because they have a right to believe in whatever they want to believe, without being ridiculed. Everyone does, irrespective of what they actually believe in.

I couldn't give a flying feck about religion, I just don't see why people need to rip the beliefs of others to shit to strengthen their own. Believe or disbelieve whatever the feck you want or don't want to.
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Then why so aggressive and animated? People can believe what they want, and unless they broadcast it then nobody will know. If you state you believe in God or Angels or Leprachauns on a public forum, expect questions.
 
moses said:
Then why so aggressive and animated? People can believe what they want, and unless they broadcast it then nobody will know. If you state you believe in God or Angels or Leprachauns on a public forum, expect questions.
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I respect peoples right to hold religious beliefs.

I have family who are church goers, born again christians and believers. I resent the assertion that they're loonys, idiots, morons, or that they support abuse, murder, torture, subjagation, rape and discrimination. I don't agree with them, I don't follow a religion of any kind, though I believe there is probably a God of some sort, but I don't think they should be ridiculed for their belief.
 
The Neviller said:
I respect peoples right to hold religious beliefs.

I have family who are church goers, born again christians and believers. I resent the assertion that they're loonys, idiots, morons, or that they support abuse, murder, torture, subjagation, rape and discrimination. I don't agree with them, I don't follow a religion of any kind, though I believe there is probably a God of some sort, but I don't think they should be ridiculed for their belief.
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Nor should atheists who question those beliefs be called arrogant. I don't recall anybody being called stupid or a loony in this thread, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
The Neviller said:
I respect peoples right to hold religious beliefs.

I have family who are church goers, born again christians and believers. I resent the assertion that they're loonys, idiots, morons, or that they support abuse, murder, torture, subjagation, rape and discrimination. I don't agree with them, I don't follow a religion of any kind, though I believe there is probably a God of some sort, but I don't think they should be ridiculed for their belief.
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Fine, but the wider application of religion will always bring those subjects to the table. I don't think anyone is accusing your family of rape and torture. These are things that are done in the name of some religions, and at one point, most religions, so it's really up to the religions to speak up on this and not expect people who don't believe to cut whatever slack they require. Religions are to some extent above the law, see the abuse in Ireland, and that horrifies non believers, so really a debate that paints believers unfavourably is a pretty small price to pay. And again, you know nobody is accusing your family of rape.
 
Shark22 said:
Nor should atheists who question those beliefs be called arrogant. I don't recall anybody being called stupid or a loony in this thread, but maybe I'm wrong.
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You clearly haven't even read the last few pages.

Why feel the need to poke someone in the eye with your lack of belief? Just don't believe, and carry on. You don't ned to run around telling people how wrong and daft they are to believe in something. Does that strengthen your lack of belief?
 
The Neviller said:
You clearly haven't even read the last few pages.

Why feel the need to poke someone in the eye with your lack of belief? Just don't believe, and carry on. You don't ned to run around telling people how wrong and daft they are to believe in something. Does that strengthen your lack of belief?
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No, maybe he just believes it. And you do believe in his right to believe?

Most of your posts are having a go at someone. Is it to make you stronger?
 
Because a thread about religion being bollocks is going to full of what? Us saying how marvelous religion is? feck that. If you have anything to say against the points made by the atheists, feel free to address them, but don't call us arrogant for pointing out clear inconsistencies in what others believe.

Unless you want to say you were also being arrogant in the feminism thread last night. Ultimately, this is just a forum, all topics open to discussion will be discussed, and there's no reason in my mind to respect the views of religious people. Their right to that view, yes, but the views themselves should be open to examination.
 
moses said:
Fine, but the wider application of religion will always bring those subjects to the table. I don't think anyone is accusing your family of rape and torture. These are things that are done in the name of some religions, and at one point, most religions, so it's really up to the religions to speak up on this and not expect people who don't believe to cut whatever slack they require. Religions are to some extent above the law, see the abuse in Ireland, and that horrifies non believers, so really a debate that paints believers unfavourably is a pretty small price to pay. And again, you know nobody is accusing your family of rape.
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I didn't say they were accused of rape, but just a page back anyone who goes to church and throws a tenner in the collection box is guilty of supporting a system that commits these acts. Those are the assertions that are made about religious people.

The assertion is - Go to church, throw money into the collection box and you're guilty by proxy of rape, murder, torture, abuse, subjugation and abusing slave labour. I don't think that's fair. I pointed out how almost everything every single one of us does, uses or buys directly or indirectly leads to the same or similar things. So why the need to throw all these ills at the feet of religion?
 
Silva said:
Because a thread about religion being bollocks is going to full of what? Us saying how marvelous religion is? feck that. If you have anything to say against the points made by the atheists, feel free to address them, but don't call us arrogant for pointing out clear inconsistencies in what others believe.

Unless you want to say you were also being arrogant in the feminism thread last night. Ultimately, this is just a forum, all topics open to discussion will be discussed, and there's no reason in my mind to respect the views of religious people. Their right to that view, yes, but the views themselves should be open to examination.
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I probably was.
 
The Neviller said:
I didn't say they were accused of rape, but just a page back anyone who goes to church and throws a tenner in the collection box is guilty of supporting a system that commits these acts. Those are the assertions that are made about religious people.

The assertion is - Go to church, throw money into the collection box and you're guilty by proxy of rape, murder, torture, abuse, subjugation and abusing slave labour. I don't think that's fair. I pointed out how almost everything every single one of us does, uses or buys directly or indirectly leads to the same or similar things. So why the need to throw all these ills at the feet of religion?
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I can see reason beyond arrogance that might assert that. I am personally horrified the catholic church are still supported by the state in light of their behaviour on this island.

Yes there are other shitty institutions and corporations we give money to that equates, maybe, but two wrongs etc.

Also religions are often woven into the states we live in, not so with many others. Religion is forced upon our children in schools, so yes people are going to feel strongly if they disbelive. Religion is quite unique
 
moses said:
No, maybe he just believes it. And you do believe in his right to believe?

Most of your posts are having a go at someone. Is it to make you stronger?
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Course I do. I believe in the right for anyone to believe. I don't believe in the right to ridicule people for their belief. Or to ram what you believe down someone else's throat.

And that goes for people who are religious and believe in God. I know many of them do it, and I don't agree with them doing it either.

i'm having a go at the attitude of many of the atheists in this thread. I think a majority of them talk down and try to belittle those who believe much more than they need to.
 
moses said:
I can see reason beyond arrogance that might assert that. I am personally horrified the catholic church are still supported by the state in light of their behaviour on this island.

Yes there are other shitty institutions and corporations we give money to that equates, but two wrongs etc.
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In response to your "two wrongs", "people in glass houses" applies just as much.
 
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