Religion, what's the point?

I don't like to quote Dawkins a lot because I think he should stick to science, but his spectrum of theistic probability is I think a worthwhile contribution to the debate.

1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4.Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5.Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

I'd put myself at 6 in relation to a vague idea of a creator-being, 7 when it comes to the various religions.
 
Silva said:
I don't like to quote Dawkins a lot because I think he should stick to science, but his spectrum of theistic probability is I think a worthwhile contribution to the debate.

1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4.Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5.Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

I'd put myself at 6 in relation to a vague idea of a creator-being, 7 when it comes to the various religions.
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Pretty much.
 
Doesn't Dawkins go on to slate anyone who would identify as a 7 for the same reasons he would slate anyone who identifies as a 1?
 
He identifies as a 6 (6.9 in some interviews) and says any rational open minded person has to concede that if evidence contrary to what they think appears, they should change their opinion accordingly.

The main reason I'm a 7 when it comes to religions is that they have been made up by men, and even if God did come to the people to wrote them, the various translations and re-writes of the book have surely changed what a potential god would have said.
 
that doesn't go against there being no God, just no correct religion.
 
I can get to 7 when considering an interfering god - Jesus as his son, virgin birth and all that. Not saying a god doesn't exist, just that interpretation.
 
I think I agree with Ubik. The universe had to come from somewhere, but idea that it was created by some kind of space wizard that wants us to live by certain rules is beyond ridiculous to me.
 
I'd have to be a seven on the scale. I know there isn't a god in the same way I know astrology is bollocks. Holding out the possibility of changing my mind if new evidence arrived doesn't stop me from being certain no evidence will present itself.

If you can't be sure what god wants you to do, whether he gives a shit about you, or whether he is able to help, then what’s the point in a god like that anyway?
 
Red Dreams said:
I just don't think everything ends when we die. I honestly think I will see the people I loved who went before me. To see my parents again...those I lived with and loved in this life.

As for faith...I've felt Him in my life. It works for me. I feel Him when I pray. I can hear him in my heart.

I believe.
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This post reminded me of this hymn we always had to sing in primary school. I went to a Catholic primary school and a Catholic secondary school. In 5th year we all had to talk with the priest for a while, his first question being " Do you believe in God?" and my answer being " No". All the smart people said yes and only had to listen to his bullshit for 5 minutes. I ended up arguing with him for 30 minutes and then got suspended for telling him I was a better man than he was because, unlike him, I didn't believe people would burn in hell for eternity. I think it was when I asked him about people who commit suicide and his answer that tipped me over the edge.

Anyway, the hymn:

esus’ love is very wonderful
Jesus’ love is very wonderful,
Jesus’ love is very wonderful,
Oh, wonderful love!

It’s so high you can’t get over it,
So low you can’t get under it,
So wide you can’t get round it,
Oh, wonderful love!

So deep you can't go through it,
So long you can't see the end of it,
So strong you can't resist it,
Oh, wonderful love!

So bright you have to see it,
So loud you have to hear it,
So sweet you have to taste it,
Oh, wonderful love!
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:lol:

It is actually a complete indoctrination process. Prayers first thing in the morning, a religious education class everyday, school mass once a week, confessions held in school at various times etc. Why should a kid or even young teenagers (Or anyone actually, but especially these ones) really even have to go to confession? "I'm sorry Father for jerking off about 16 times this week and thinking of my mate's ma's tits while doing it".

Most of them are creeps and they creep me out. feck 'em. Apologies for completely random post, I was studying statistics all weekend, did an exam earlier and have had about 3 hours sleep.
 
I loved Catholic school, whenever we had debates with priests I would bring up their distinction of men and women (as all our RE teachers were women) and it always wind them up to the point where they started shouting and accused me of being too young to know anything. It was brilliant.

That said, one of those female teachers once told us that most of us are going to hell because we criticize Catholicism, so I'm not sure she really cared for my points.
 
Ubik said:
I find that a lot of people that class themselves as agnostic are actually atheist. I include the me of many years ago in that. All atheism really is is a lack of belief in a higher power, it doesn't categorically rule out the chance of one. If some evidence came up that was compelling, I'd convert.

"But that's not the point, you have to believe!" Yeah yeah, piss off.
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I wouldn't. If God does exist in anything like the ways we have been presented with, then he's an utter cnut (in my opinion).

Then there is the whole issue with actually worshipping anything...
 
Silva said:
To add to that, how could god justify rewarding the soul of a child molester when someone can suffer for all eternity for worshiping a different god? (Or false idol, as they say)
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Or punish a child that lives a very short time and dies unbaptised without any ability to sin.
 
rumac said:
I wouldn't. If God does exist in anything like the ways we have been presented with, then he's an utter cnut (in my opinion).

Then there is the whole issue with actually worshipping anything...
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The question would be why a god would want worship. If a god is omnipotent/omniscient and omnipresent then worship is irrelevent.
 
rumac said:
I wouldn't. If God does exist in anything like the ways we have been presented with, then he's an utter cnut (in my opinion).

Then there is the whole issue with actually worshipping anything...
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I'd convert to believing it existed, I wouldn't start taking communion :wenger:

Stick said:
The question would be why a god would want worship. If a god is omnipotent/omniscient and omnipresent then worship is irrelevent.
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God's notoriously vain and jealous.
 
God's either a massive prick that you wouldn't want to worship anyway, or he doesn't exist. Either way, being atheist seems the best way to go.
 
It might come as a shock to some, but a large percentage people who have faith dont give a feck what non-believers think - in terms of being preached to that there's no God & that they are deluded..

Its a private thing & thats the way it should be anyway, without religion being rammed down someone's throat & vice-versa with atheism...
 
Red Hand Devil said:
It might come as a shock to some, but a large percentage people who have faith dont give a feck what non-believers think - in terms of being preached to that there's no God & that they are deluded..
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- That's been true of every dogma in history. I fail to see how that's a point in its favor.

Its a private thing & thats the way it should be anyway, without religion being rammed down someone's throat & vice-versa with atheism...
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- "Ramming atheism down someone's throat" is nothing more than telling people the truth.
 
I think that God and religion has always represented humanity's fear of death. People don't want to think that physical death is the end of all experiences, emotions, and thoughts so they insist on believing that somehow their "mind" will continue to exist without any physical brain in an eternity of sustained bliss, or even will be reincarnated in a new form.

As an atheist myself, I can't say that I fear death. I didn't exist for a long fecking time before I were born, so I don't see a reason to fear it when I die.
 
Theon said:
:lol:
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- Consider this analogy:

Person A believes in Santa Claus. Person B - being an aSantaist - tells A that his belief is false, using logic to try to appeal to A's common sense and critical faculties. A refuses logic, and is insistent in his belief that Santa exists. B continues to try to appeal to A's common sense, throwing in some ridicule in the process.

Is B ramming his aSantaism down A's throat? Should B keep his aSantaism to himself? Is B being insensitive to, and intolerant of, A's beliefs? Is B a militant aSantaist?

Or is B simply telling the truth?
 
Red Hand Devil said:
"Telling the truth"?

How the feck do you know there is no God? :lol:
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Do you know that there is no Santa Claus? When people ask you in everyday life, "does Santa Claus exist?", what's your answer? If it's "no", I could proceed to ask you "well, how do you know there is no Santa Claus? Can you prove it?", but I think we can both agree that this would be a pretty pointless exercise.

Insofar as I can claim to know anything, I think I can claim to know that there is no Santa Claus. And, until any credible evidence emerges, I think I can claim to know that there is no god. I'm open to arguments and evidence on both counts. None has ever been provided.
 
Saliph said:
Do you know that there is no Santa Claus? When people ask you in everyday life, "does Santa Claus exist?", what's your answer? If it's "no", I could proceed to ask you "well, how do you know there is no Santa Claus? Can you prove it?", but I think we can all agree that this would be a pretty pointless exercise.

Insofar as I can claim to know anything, I think I can claim to know that there is no Santa Claus. And, until any credible evidence emerges, I think I can claim to know that there is no god. I'm open to arguments and evidence on both counts. None has ever been provided.
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I'm not religious myself but I just found your certainty ridiculous, and slightly arrogant. I could see how it would offend someone who was religious.

Not too sure on the Santa example, you could certainly distinguish it. One possible way would be that the people who initially suggested his existence (most likely your Mum) insist he isn't real, it's an accepted lie. Whereas for God people do insist he is real. For a comparable situation to happen with God you would need the apostles or authors of the bible to come out and say "yeahh, this was all bollocks - none of it is really true". Until that happens the situations aren't the same, one has genuine support for being true the other is accepted to be made up.

On the bolded - you are missing the point of religion. It's called faith for a reason.
 
Mankind will very gradually become atheist. There's nothing either side can do about it really, apart from waste time trying to resolve issues that can't be resolved.

Religion will probably die out eventually, maybe leaving behind negligible pockets of extremists, but no time close to our generation.
 
But that reason is that there is no evidence. As I said earlier in this thread, I can't hang my feet of the bed out of the feet that a monster will eat them, that doesn't make the monster real.

A child might believe that Santa is bringing them presents, it doesn't make Santa real. The faith argument is bullshit, frankly.
 
Theon said:
I'm not religious myself but I just found your certainty ridiculous, and slightly arrogant. I could see how it would offend someone who was religious.
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- Of course, because you've been brought up in a culture that's taught you that religion deserves special protection from criticism, and that religious beliefs are somehow fundamentally different than other beliefs.

As for offending the religious, I don't mind in the slightest. People should be called out on their fallacious thinking and their stupidity, and I make no apologies for being honest; it's certainly better than nodding patronizingly along.

Not too sure on the Santa example, you could certainly distinguish it. One possible way would be that the people who initially suggested his existence (most likely your Mum) insist he isn't real, it's an accepted lie. Whereas for God people do insist he is real. For a comparable situation to happen with God you would need the apostles or authors of the bible to come out and say "yeahh, this was all bollocks - none of it is really true". Until that happens the situations aren't the same, one has genuine support for being true the other is accepted to be made up.
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- Hah, well, Christianity is self-evidently false. There have been literally thousands of different religions throughout history, Christianity is not special in that regard, and the evidence for the truthfulness of its doctrine is certainly no better than any of the others.

Christianity "has genuine support for being true"? Elaborate, please.

Your attempt to distinguish my Santa analogy is simply ludicrous. My mum didn't invent Santa Claus, so do we need to go back in time and ask the person who did whether that was all bullshit too? In order to be sure, I mean. Of course not. All we have to do is look at the evidence (or lack thereof).

But you can exchange Santa for Poseidon if that helps you understand the analogy better.

On the bolded - you are missing the point of religion. It's called faith for a reason.
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- Again, I don't see how that's a point in its favor. As if calling it "faith" somehow automatically exempts it from the normal rules of logic and rationality.

"Faith" is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail. - Sam Harris
 
Theon said:
I'm not religious myself but I just found you're certainty ridiculous, and slightly arrogant. I could see how it would offend someone who was religious.

Not too sure on the Santa example, you could certainly distinguish it. One possible way would be that the people who initially suggested his existence (most likely your Mum) insist he isn't real, it's an accepted lie. Whereas for God people do insist he is real. For a comparable situation to happen with God you would need the apostles or authors of the bible to come out and say "yeahh, this was all bollocks - none of it is really true". Until that happens the situations aren't the same, one has genuine support for being true the other is accepted to be made up.

On the bolded - you are missing the point of religion. It's called faith for a reason.
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Listen man you're wastin your time, this subject has been ragin on here for feck knows how long - as long as the cafe originated in 1999 i'd hazard a guess, so there's no point fighting it.

Its the same old shite - people havin no respect for others beliefs, even considering that more people in the world believe in God than those who do not!

I think its pretty lame to use the old Santa crap aswell. Are these the same people that go around tellin kids that there's no such thing as Santa?

If kids choose to believe in Santa thats a wonderful thing & makes Christmas all the more special for them. People who quietly believe in God find alot of comfort in doin so, its called having faith & its a personal choice u retain when u get older & away from the childhood brain-washing that went on!

I believe in God & that one day i will be reunited with loved ones when i die - that to me is a very wonderful thing & very comforting to older people also...
 
There was a time when white people thought they were superior to black people, but I guess they must have been right considering they were in the majority.

By the way, all religious people are also in a minority if you want to be truthful, considering that no religion or god has the support, or has ever had the support, of the majority of the population. Wars have been waged between people who thought their god was the correct god.

The argument that the majority is correct is downright stupid.
 
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