Religion, what's the point?

The Neviller said:
i'm having a go at the attitude of many of the atheists in this thread. I think a majority of them talk down and try to belittle those who believe much more than they need to.
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The burden of proof is with the believers. You can believe what you like, but once you state a believe, be ready to answer the question why.

Off this subject you agree with these points fully, you would chase a poster down if you saw a lack of plausibility in his argument and insult him in the process.
 
The Neviller said:
In response to your "two wrongs", "people in glass houses" applies just as much.
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No it doesn't. Religion in this country and many others has full state support and often state integration. It is something we are born into and have to choose to not partake in. Nothing else is the same at all.
 
Silva said:
Hardly, I acknowledge the fact that what little I unavoidably spend on services and products provided giant corporations is sponsoring a lot of suffering in the world. Religious people don't own up to theirs.
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That and if Nike employees were systematically raping our children for generations they'd all be in fecking jail, and never sell another sneaker here; it's not a valid comparison IMO
 
Zarlak said:
By the same token, there are plenty of none religious people swanning around in their sweatshop clothes and the like that don't give a shit or own up to it. I don't think religion ties anywhere into this example.
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I agree.
 
Infact I'd argue that religious people (on paper) at least had more reason to own up for it/feel bad about it given their beliefs, than people who didn't give a shit about anything and thought it was a load of old rubbish.

Not that you could ever measure it to find out, but that seems like the more logical one to me.
 
Religious people are caught in a trap in some respects. It's much harder to not be catholic in Ireland than not buy Nestlé.
 
moses said:
The burden of proof is with the believers. You can believe what you like, but once you state a believe, be ready to answer the question why.

Off this subject you agree with these points fully, you would chase a poster down if you saw a lack of plausibility in his argument and insult him in the process.
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Maybe.
 
Now feck off you proddy bollix.


edit - it's sunny here for the 3rd day this year, thank the lord, and I am out to partake. Have a nice fight y'all.
 
moses said:
That and if Nike employees were systematically raping our children for generations they'd all be in fecking jail, and never sell another sneaker here; it's not a valid comparison IMO
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For that specific act, yes, you're right of course. But for other things that have been blamed on religion in this thread, every single one of us is guilty of supporting governments and companies who lead to those acts being committed every single day.

So, people in glass houses.
 
moses said:
Now feck off you proddy bollix.


edit - it's sunny here for the 3rd day this year, thank the lord, and I am out to partake. Have a nice fight y'all.
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I hope a modmin is reading this so they can warn you about your language in the CE forum :smirk:

Enjoy the sun, just don't worship it.
 
A god is not the same as the one true god.

Definition 5 for me please.
god (gd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
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moses said:
Why is religion the only thing you can believe in with no proof and still demand respect?
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This is the root of the issue. When talking about god the religious use decision making techniques that they use nowhere else in life as they would quite rightly be laughed at and ridiculed. They then get upset when anyone points out the illogicality of their thinking, yet seem to have no problem with their religion governing whole swathes of everyone's life. Bizarre.
 
The Neviller said:
Maybe.
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I believe in the flying spaghetti monster as supreme ruler of the universe. I refuse to say why. Do you think this belief deserves respect and the benefit of the doubt based on my belief alone?

No?

So why is this any different to any other god/religion?

Because people REALLY believe it?
 
The Neviller said:
Yeah you do. Well, maybe not you personally, maybe you're a different kind, but the Santa analogy was definitely saying that God doesn't exist.

How isn't it possible? I guess you're going to dazzle me with some article that says Atheism isn't a belief, when writers the world over aren't sure how to define it. Is it a lack of belief in something, or a belief that something doesn't exist? That's open to interpretation, but hey, yours will be the right one, i'm sure.

Way to prove you aren't arrogant, Mojo. I've read enough to know that I don't see the need for people to be ripping others to shit for their beliefs, or mocking them, ridiculing them, telling them they're wrong and stupid. Even in that post you've taken some fecking superiority position, trying to infer that you're so much more intellectual than me. I've no idea if you are, but if so, who gives a feck? You're still a twat talking shit on a football forum like the rest of us. You're just doing it in a more pompous fashion. Well done you.

I didn't call everyone an arrogant cnut, by the way. Just you and the other arrogant cnuts. Some of the atheists in here aren't arrogant cnuts. I did say "most of" and "majority". I assumed an intellectual like yourself would be able to tell the difference between most and all.
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I don't believe I've made any efforts to prove I'm not arrogant, this is a debate about religion, let's keep it to that.

Why do you feel it's virtuous to not question our atheist stance. You're not normally shy in giving your opinion, why the sudden sensitivity. This is what shows me your lack of understanding. Atheism is just healthy skepticism, so we'd welcome criticism.
 
MrMojo said:
I don't believe I've made any efforts to prove I'm not arrogant, this is a debate about religion, let's keep it to that.

Why do you feel it's virtuous to not question our atheist stance. You're not normally shy in giving your opinion, why the sudden sensitivity. This is what shows me your lack of understanding. Atheism is just healthy skepticism, so we'd welcome criticism.
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That sounds scarily like 'we' are an organisation.
 
Wibble said:
I believe in the flying spaghetti monster as supreme ruler of the universe. I refuse to say why. Do you think this belief deserves respect and the benefit of the doubt based on my belief alone?

No?

So why is this any different to any other god/religion?

Because people REALLY believe it?
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I dont really care what you believe in. I don't agree, but I'm not about to belittle you for your belief.

Why do you presume I'd answer that question with a "No", or have a go at you for what you believe? I've no idea if the flying spaghetti monster exists. I've never witnessed him with my own eyes, personally. But then, I've never witnessed the earth's core either, but I assume there is something there. If your belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster gives you comfort and peace of mind, then fill your boots. It'll do you no harm to believe it, and if you're wrong the worst that'll happen is that when you die you won't go to Bolognese heaven and meet him, and you'll just die. No big deal, really.
 
The argument that because you can't see something, it can't exist is not proof of anything. You weren't around to see Winston Churchill get elected, that does not prove that Winston Churchill was never Prime Minister. We have historical evidence of Churchill, we know the core of the earth is there because a lot of data comes from experiments looking at the makeup of the world. There is however no similarly compelling evidence for god.
 
The Neviller said:
I dont really care what you believe in. I don't agree, but I'm not about to belittle you for your belief.

Why do you presume I'd answer that question with a "No", or have a go at you for what you believe? I've no idea if the flying spaghetti monster exists. I've never witnessed him with my own eyes, personally. But then, I've never witnessed the earth's core either, but I assume there is something there. If your belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster gives you comfort and peace of mind, then fill your boots. It'll do you no harm to believe it, and if you're wrong the worst that'll happen is that when you die you won't go to Bolognese heaven and meet him, and you'll just die. No big deal, really.
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But that's just your answer in context of your posts in this thread? You'd take the piss normally, and you'd be right to. Yet there is as much proof for a divine being. The only difference is the volume of people who believe.
 
moses said:
But that's just your answer in context of your posts in this thread? You'd take the piss normally, and you'd be right to. Yet there is as much proof for a divine being. The only difference is the volume of people who believe.
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Volume of people who believe is the only thing separating a crazy person, a cult, and a religion.
 
I can't understand why Christians get all pissy about one not "respecting" their beliefs . . . when in fact, their beliefs are that since your not in their group, you're fecked and damned to eternal hellfire. feck off, I'm not going to respect that, so stop whining and get the feck away from me and my children and family and friends.
 
MrMojo said:
I don't believe I've made any efforts to prove I'm not arrogant, this is a debate about religion, let's keep it to that.

Why do you feel it's virtuous to not question our atheist stance. You're not normally shy in giving your opinion, why the sudden sensitivity. This is what shows me your lack of understanding. Atheism is just healthy skepticism, so we'd welcome criticism.
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I've given an opinion. I'm not religious, I don't go to church. I believe there is some form of higher force than us, but what that is I have no idea, and I don't presume to know the answers.

I'm perfectly happy for people to believe or not believe in a God, and don't think anyone on either side needs to deem anyone who has a differing opinion as stupid or misguided. Belief or lack therefore is just that. None of us know with any certainty whether there is a God or not, we just believe or don't.
 
The Neviller said:
don't think anyone on either side needs to deem anyone who has a differing opinion as stupid or misguided.
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You sound like someone who has seen a light. We are to expect a respectful poster who doesn't call anyone stupid or thick from now on? Because who you claim to be in this thread is not how most see you on the forum.
 
moses said:
That sounds scarily like 'we' are an organisation.
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I felt confident on that point to go all the way and speak for the group. Though there shouldn't be anything inherently scary about organisation. The National Secular Society for instance does nothing but good.
 
moses said:
You sound like someone who has seen a light. We are to expect a respectful poster who doesn't call anyone stupid or thick from now on? Because who you claim to be in this thread is not how most see you on the forum.
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I wouldn't count on it, in all honesty.
 
The Neviller said:
I've given an opinion. I'm not religious, I don't go to church. I believe there is some form of higher force than us, but what that is I have no idea, and I don't presume to know the answers.

I'm perfectly happy for people to believe or not believe in a God, and don't think anyone on either side needs to deem anyone who has a differing opinion as stupid or misguided. Belief or lack therefore is just that. None of us know with any certainty whether there is a God or not, we just believe or don't.
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You don't believe that followers of the Cult of Joseph Smith (Mormonism) are misguided? Even though practically everyone who isn't in the cult accepts that Smith made it all up? What about the countless other crackpot religions? Scientologists? Are their beliefs to be taken seriously?
 
MrMojo said:
I felt confident on that point to go all the way and speak for the group. Though there shouldn't be anything inherently scary about organisation. The National Secular Society for instance does nothing but good.
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Not believing in something is not a close enough association with anyone to be classed a group IMO.
 
MrMojo said:
What about the bit in Luke where he says bring all those who don't wish to follow (unbelievers) and slay them before me.

I'm now convinced that most moderately religious people have read less than 50% of their holy scripture. There is no other rational explanation for how they misrepresent what's there in black and white.
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I have read Luke. What you quote is from a parable. Those words are what the master says to the servant.

What Jesus is saying to his disciples is to whom much is given , much will be expected. He is exhorting his disciples to take risks in spreading the word of God. With the exception of John, all died martyrs.
 
rednev said:
You don't believe that followers of the Cult of Joseph Smith (Mormonism) are misguided? Even though practically everyone who isn't in the cult accepts that Smith made it all up? What about the countless other crackpot religions? Scientologists? Are their beliefs to be taken seriously?
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You don't have to agree with them, but you can just leave them to it. It doesn't affect you, so why would you care that they're wrong in your eyes (or most people's eyes)?
 
Again, respecting someones right to have a view does not extend to having to respect that view. Why is the view that religion is loony less respectable than being religious? And again, it impacts us all, considering the amount of power religion holds in the world.
 
The Neviller said:
You don't have to agree with them, but you can just leave them to it. It doesn't affect you, so why would you care that they're wrong in your eyes (or most people's eyes)?
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But that's not the point, is it.

You are claiming that belief in the Christian god is valid because it is not possible to prove with certainty that he doesn't exist. But you (presumably....at least hopefully) hold the belief that the religious principles of Scientology and Mormonism are a load of shit, yet we can't prove with certainty that Xenu did not exist 75 million years ago as the leader of the Galactic Confederacy in outer space. You are an atheist with regards to this belief.
 
The Neviller said:
You don't have to agree with them, but you can just leave them to it. It doesn't affect you, so why would you care that they're wrong in your eyes (or most people's eyes)?
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TN, seriously, you are openly contradicting who you are.
 
I just passed a 5 year old talking to their imaginary friend.... I couldn't resist the compulsion to run back to her and have her prove to me that he actually existed, which upset her (particularly when I started calling her a cnut), up to that point she had been quite happily going about her business.

The point I'm trying to make? Well if someone believes something and it makes them happy and has no impact whatsoever on you then why do you care what they believe much less feel the need to ask them to prove it.

Does that mean religion shouldn't be questioned? No, I have major problems with the role and influence various religions have. That doesn't make all religion bollocks though, or everyone that believes in God some sort of mindless sheep prepared to act on the instruction of their church... unfortunately those people exist though and in some cases they are manipulated by people applying a questionable interpretation to religion.
 
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