Religion, what's the point?

frostbite said:
There are thousands of religions with thousands of manuals and some of them order you to put diesel in there! Which one is the correct manual?
Click to expand...

You would have thought if they are telling you to put diesel in a petrol engine then it's obvious it's not correct.

I personally also disagree with the thousands of religions viewpoint. Mainly this is due to terminology. What I mean is that some "religions" I would say are more philosophies than religion and even maybe sects.
 
calodo2003 said:
I thought showing the sole of your shoe was verboten in Islamic culture? Or is that hitting someone with the sole of the shoe?
Click to expand...
It’s more Arab culture than Islamic. These guys (in Roanes video) are Asian subcontinent.
 
Roane said:
You would have thought if they are telling you to put diesel in a petrol engine then it's obvious it's not correct.

I personally also disagree with the thousands of religions viewpoint. Mainly this is due to terminology. What I mean is that some "religions" I would say are more philosophies than religion and even maybe sects.
Click to expand...

What about death for gays? Is it diesel or petrol?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

"prescribing the Islamic death penalty for both the active and receptive partners who have engaged in male homosexual intercourse".
 
TheRedFlag said:
Seriously.

It's concerning that in the 21st century people still believe in myths.

I'm going to start a bigfoot religion.
Click to expand...

Everybody believes in myths, that's just hard-wired into how our brains work and how we deal with reality. Political ideologies or humanism are no less myths than religion are. Science is different, but science doesn't fill all the needs that myths do. It doesn't tell you the meaning of things, or the difference between right and wrong.

In short, no human society can exist without a unifying big story of some sort, and that story is inevitably basically a matter of belief. The question is can we find a better big story than religion, and I for one sure hope so. Human rights and individual choice may be as invented as original sin or predestination, but at least they relate directly to our emotional and other needs as individuals rather than to an entirely fabricated metastory.
 
Zlaatan said:
Ok, I guess that puts us on the same page regarding how we view prayer as it pertains to the real world, or at least pretty close anyway. My follow up question is a bit harder to answer probably, but I feel I have to ask, how do you know that nudge is from a god and not simply your own "inner voice" if you get what I mean?
Click to expand...
Well, I'm not sure we are really on the same page concerning prayer though. For someone like me who believes that the Bible is Holy Scripture inspired by God and therefore true and reliable, there are many examples in the Book of people who prayed and God responded to their prayers, therefore I believe He also answers prayer requests affecting our lives in this world (saying this world because of course we believe that there will be an afterlife after this life is over).

I totally see what you mean and I understand that considering the "inner voice" would be the logical conclusion for anyone who didn't believe in God's existence. For a believer like me however, the nudge to live righteously comes from God's Holy Spirit. There are so many things which a non-believer would call coincidence but which a believer sees as Divine intervention, especially when said "coincidences" almost always match what we know about God's love (which a non-believer would consider as confirmation bias haha).

The truth is that there are many things in the life of religious spirituality which simply can't be explained in words, when you believe in God you just have faith that those things are, and you do find evidence of God's power at work every single day. Have you ever asked yourself, what if God did exist and what if He indeed wanted you to have a personal relationship with him?
 
Deery said:
It’s the little things that you can’t explain and never will be able to, it’s a mystery. I was actually more overwhelmed with the coming together of people, until I got home and realised why I had gone in the first place.

They say God works in mysterious ways.
Click to expand...
Indeed and this is one thing that one has to keep in mind when trying to understand God through intellectual means. As the Superior and Supreme Being, we can't expect our human minds to understand everything about God. It is important to consider this when approaching difficult questions like how did God create the world and why does God allow suffering and the likes. We might not have answers to everything because God is too great for our limited minds to fathom completely. It's like having mastered the sciences and achieved a better understanding of how the world works (although still very partial and far from complete), we expect to have a mastery in understanding God and how He works as well.

I find it funny for example, that NASA searches for extraterrestrial life similar to life on Earth and tries to communicate by sending and listening to signals using homo sapiens psychology and technological norms. I mean, if extraterrestrial "life" did exist on a distant galaxy, I think the probability that it would remotely resemble any form of life on planet Earth of the Milky Way galaxy or that we would even be able to communicate by whatsoever means with each other is extremely low. As a species, we seem to project our intellect on everything else, expecting even the Supreme Being to reason and think just like we do. I have humbly accepted my place as a human who certainly cannot comprehend everything about God and I can live with not having all the answers.

There is this quote which I like from the article I linked previously (How I Discovered that Faith Isn't Intellectual Suicide):
Another important intellectual shift concerned my expectation for certainty. If God exists, I'd thought, we should be able to be sure. I will have none of this “blind faith” nonsense. We should know it and be certain about it. And while I certainly did not come to accept faith as being blind, I did come to realize that this expectation of absolute certainty was entirely absurd. This standard is unreasonable, and it wasn’t hard to see: I realized there were many things I knew, and I was fully rational in my claim to know them while falling short of this utopian absolute certainty. I knew my name, my date of birth, and who my parents were. I even knew about things that happened before I was born: I knew that my older brother, Nicolas, was born through a C-section because the umbilical cord had been wrapped around his neck, and he came out “blue as a Smurf.” I knew that the Mont-Blanc is 4,807 meters high. I knew that the Bastille was stormed on a July 14—though I always forgot the year. And I knew there is a great wall in China—though I had never seen it. I knew all these things without proof and without absolute certainty. How? Because, in each case, someone who knows told me it was true. Yes, I came to see that personal testimonies are a perfectly valid source of knowledge—a source of knowing, not just believing.
Click to expand...
 
Fanatic 00237 said:
It is important to consider this when approaching difficult questions like how did God create the world and why does God allow suffering and the likes. We might not have answers to everything because God is too great for our limited minds to fathom
Click to expand...
Ah yes, the cozy security blanket of “mysterious ways”. I don’t have to ask how it feels or wonder, “must be nice”… I remember those days. It’s absolutely nice to just tell yourself “well, mysterious ways / god’s divine plan / we aren’t meant to understand” when awful things happen and you find yourself asking questions of god that you’re not supposed to ask. Psychology would call that a defense mechanism, but what do they know?
 
Fanatic 00237 said:
As a species, we seem to project our intellect on everything else, expecting even the Supreme Being to reason and think just like we do. I have humbly accepted my place as a human who certainly cannot comprehend everything about God and I can live with not having all the answers.
Click to expand...

That's funny the first sentence is why I have no truck with, or a need for, Religion and swap the word God with Universe in the second sentence and it's pretty much why I'm an Atheist.

Whether God exists or not is immaterial to me as it doesn't impact my life one way or the other and it wouldn't change anything about how I behave or treat others.
 
Fanatic 00237 said:
Indeed and this is one thing that one has to keep in mind when trying to understand God through intellectual means. As the Superior and Supreme Being, we can't expect our human minds to understand everything about God. It is important to consider this when approaching difficult questions like how did God create the world and why does God allow suffering and the likes. We might not have answers to everything because God is too great for our limited minds to fathom completely. It's like having mastered the sciences and achieved a better understanding of how the world works (although still very partial and far from complete), we expect to have a mastery in understanding God and how He works as well.

I find it funny for example, that NASA searches for extraterrestrial life similar to life on Earth and tries to communicate by sending and listening to signals using homo sapiens psychology and technological norms. I mean, if extraterrestrial "life" did exist on a distant galaxy, I think the probability that it would remotely resemble any form of life on planet Earth of the Milky Way galaxy or that we would even be able to communicate by whatsoever means with each other is extremely low. As a species, we seem to project our intellect on everything else, expecting even the Supreme Being to reason and think just like we do. I have humbly accepted my place as a human who certainly cannot comprehend everything about God and I can live with not having all the answers.

There is this quote which I like from the article I linked previously (How I Discovered that Faith Isn't Intellectual Suicide):
Click to expand...
Following this reasoning to it's logical conclusion: why would the concept of a god, in of itself, not be a clumsy anthropomorphising of nature in exactly the same way these other fallacies of human perception and reason manifest? What aspect of this reasoning leads to affirmation of a "superior and supreme being"?
 
Fanatic 00237 said:
Well, I'm not sure we are really on the same page concerning prayer though. For someone like me who believes that the Bible is Holy Scripture inspired by God and therefore true and reliable, there are many examples in the Book of people who prayed and God responded to their prayers, therefore I believe He also answers prayer requests affecting our lives in this world (saying this world because of course we believe that there will be an afterlife after this life is over).

I totally see what you mean and I understand that considering the "inner voice" would be the logical conclusion for anyone who didn't believe in God's existence. For a believer like me however, the nudge to live righteously comes from God's Holy Spirit. There are so many things which a non-believer would call coincidence but which a believer sees as Divine intervention, especially when said "coincidences" almost always match what we know about God's love (which a non-believer would consider as confirmation bias haha).

The truth is that there are many things in the life of religious spirituality which simply can't be explained in words, when you believe in God you just have faith that those things are, and you do find evidence of God's power at work every single day. Have you ever asked yourself, what if God did exist and what if He indeed wanted you to have a personal relationship with him?
Click to expand...

So can you explain what you know about god's love and why this divine intervention is so inconsistent? And where can we find daily evidence of god's power at work?

I have thought about gods quite a lot in my life, about what I would do if I had that kind of power etc and it's actually one of the biggest reasons why I'm so bitter about it. For example with the Christian god, why did he not simply create paradise and fill it with sane, happy people right from the start? You'd think that was a no-brainer but instead he supposedly created an enormous universe of which 99.∞% is inhospitable to humans and then put us on a little planet made up of 70% water, filled with natural disasters, diseases, oh and a devil and a bunch of dinosaur bones as well because why not, all as a "test" just to decide whether he should torture us forever or make us his bff's..
Imagine having a completely blank sheet and the ability to do anything you wanted and then landing on that idea...twice. I then realize that most of the people on the planet believe that stories like these represents actual reality and it genuinely makes me sad to think about how many people throughout time has had their entire lives ruined or taken from them because of it, especially since we know for a fact that we don't need religion to have a happy, functioning society.

As for your 2nd question, I would never want a personal relationship with the god of the bible even if he disowned Jesus and adopted me in his place as he's a fecking monster. To be perfectly honest with you I'll never be able to understand how anyone could think otherwise, I mean he supposedly once murdered pretty much everyone on the entire planet. That should be top of the list of the "coincidences" you were talking about that match what we know about god's love.
 
Last edited:
Kinsella said:
Yeah, Ron's a very enlightened person.
Click to expand...

I am picking up some sarcasm in this post so I am going to assume you are missing his point or are completely cool with the government doing exactly what you accused him of "doing".
 
WI_Red said:
I am picking up some sarcasm in this post so I am going to assume you are missing his point or are completely cool with the government doing exactly what you accused him of "doing".
Click to expand...

I was just going for a cheap shot as this thread seems to be full of them. ;)
 
Deery said:
Thou shall not kill?

But yet you feel the need to flood your country with guns? Weapons of death?
Click to expand...
Don’t even :lol: You know how many times god commanded people to slaughter whole cities, right?

And besides that — your god let what I posted happen. 9 and 10 year olds were unrecognizable because your all powerful deity just decided to take the eon off when it comes to making sure bad shit doesn’t happen.
 
Carolina Red said:
Don’t even :lol: You know how many times god commanded people to slaughter whole cities, right?

And besides that — your god let what I posted happen. 9 and 10 year olds were unrecognizable because your all powerful deity just decided to take the eon off when it comes to making sure bad shit doesn’t happen.
Click to expand...
I believe a bigger contributor to that happening is your government.
 
Deery said:
I believe a bigger contributor to that happening is your government.
Click to expand...
Who is it that the republicans praise all the time? Who is it that is “in control” of everything, including my country’s government? Oh that’s right, your god.

You’d think after all those thoughts and prayers to him, he’d fecking do something about all this. Maybe they’re just praying for the wrong thing? Or maybe there’s like, a magic number he’s waiting on? Who knows? Mysterious ways, amirite!?!?!
 
Carolina Red said:
Who is it that the republicans praise all the time? Who is it that is “in control” of everything, including my country’s government? Oh that’s right, your god.

You’d think after all those thoughts and prayers to him, he’d fecking do something about all this. Maybe they’re just praying for the wrong thing? Or maybe there’s like, a magic number he’s waiting on? Who knows? Mysterious ways, amirite!?!?!
Click to expand...
On maybe it’s your lot that are the problem did that ever cross your mind?
 
Carolina Red said:
Don’t even :lol: You know how many times god commanded people to slaughter whole cities, right?

And besides that — your god let what I posted happen. 9 and 10 year olds were unrecognizable because your all powerful deity just decided to take the eon off when it comes to making sure bad shit doesn’t happen.
Click to expand...

So if there is a God you would expect him/she/it to simply halt time prior to every single immoral or evil human act? Or perhaps reverse time after such behaviour?
 
Deery said:
On maybe it’s your lot that are the problem did that ever cross your mind?
Click to expand...
Who is “your lot” in this, and how is god not able to overcome it / them?

Kinsella said:
So if there is a God you would expect him/she/it to simply halt time prior to every single immoral or evil human act? Or perhaps reverse time after such behaviour?
Click to expand...
I dunno man, maybe I’m expecting too much of the almighty creator of the universe to set it up so folks didn’t obliterate children’s bodies in their elementary school classroom.
 
Kinsella said:
So if there is a God you would expect him/she/it to simply halt time prior to every single immoral or evil human act? Or perhaps reverse time after such behaviour?
Click to expand...
Well, he's an atheist so I can't imagine he has any expectations of a god. However, if God is an omnipotent and omniscient creator who set the laws in motion allowing such evil to exist then clearly that's a difficult being to ascribe morality to.
 
Carolina Red said:
Who is “your lot” in this, and how is god not able to overcome it / them?


I dunno man, maybe I’m expecting too much of the almighty creator of the universe to set it up so folks didn’t obliterate children’s bodies in their elementary school classroom.
Click to expand...

You're expecting heaven on earth then.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Well, he's an atheist so I can't imagine he has any expectations of a god. However, if God is an omnipotent and omniscient creator who set the laws in motion allowing such evil to exist then clearly that's a difficult being to ascribe morality to.
Click to expand...

All of which the excludes the deist position, and proceeds on the premise that God should've made human beings even more unique than they already are...relative to other species in the animal kingdom.

And if there's no God, then that poses extremely difficult questions for the sustainability of any kind of moral basis/order at all.
 
Kinsella said:
All of which the excludes the deist position, and proceeds on the premise that God should've made human beings even more unique than they already are...relative to other species in the animal kingdom.

And if there's no God, then that poses extremely difficult questions for the sustainability of any kind of moral basis/order at all.
Click to expand...
Religion doesn’t have a copyright on morals or order, those concepts existed far before then.

Religion subsumed them rather skillfully, but it didn’t spawn them.
 
Carolina Red said:
Who is it that the republicans praise all the time? Who is it that is “in control” of everything, including my country’s government? Oh that’s right, your god.

You’d think after all those thoughts and prayers to him, he’d fecking do something about all this. Maybe they’re just praying for the wrong thing? Or maybe there’s like, a magic number he’s waiting on? Who knows? Mysterious ways, amirite!?!?!
Click to expand...


I don't get the whole mysterious ways bit.

I'm Muslim and have studied Christianity in the past, but am a little rusty on it these days. However the whole "God works in mysterious ways" is a misquote of a poem written in the 18th century if I recall.

Can't remember the exact quotes now but biblically the ways of God are not meant to be "mysterious" to the believers (Christians in this case).
 
calodo2003 said:
Religion doesn’t have a copyright on morals or order, those concepts existed far before then.

Religion subsumed them rather skillfully, but it didn’t spawn them.
Click to expand...

I mentioned God not religion.

But the majority of our modern moral notions like say universalistic egalitarianism, human rights, freedom of the individual and so on are a direct legacy of the latter. It would be ahistorical nonsense to claim otherwise.
 
Deery said:
Free will, I think you of all people should know this.
Click to expand...

How can there be free will if a supernatural being has a plan for you and intervenes in people's lives? If there is free will because a god is non-interventionist what does he actually do?
 
Kinsella said:
I mentioned God not religion.

But the majority of our modern moral notions like say universalistic egalitarianism, human rights, freedom of the individual and so on are a direct legacy of the latter. It would be ahistorical nonsense to claim otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yes other animals have social systems without any notion of god or religion. Ours is just a bit more sophisticated, nothing else. We aren't that special.
 
Carolina Red said:
Religion was created to fix god’s mistake of letting people be evil?
Click to expand...

God's and religion arise to explain things we didn't understand e.g. earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, animas dying from communicable diseases, swarms of locusts etc. Now we have far better explanations but religion is socially entrenched and, I guess, many find the idea that there is something after life comforting.
 
Wibble said:
God's and religion arise to explain things we didn't understand e.g. earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, animas dying from communicable diseases, swarms of locusts etc. Now we have far better explanations but religion is socially entrenched and, I guess, many find the idea that there is something after life comforting.
Click to expand...

Many also find the idea that there's nothing after life comforting. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.